Help me spend my money

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by Richard, Jan 19, 2006.

  1. Richard

    Richard Final Approach

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    Ack...city life
    I'm serious. My wife and I have listed a property which should yield a substantial profit. Some of those monies are earmarked to help me in my transition into a F/T commercial flying gig. What that gig will be is up for your consideration. The monies are to be used to cover moving, living, and any training costs. I anticipate relocating myself as need be to be more marketable.

    I know I like to teach. I had taught 4-5th grade for about 5 years and I have had an employee training program in business so perhaps that well translate well. Besides, I would be hard pressed to think of a more noble profession than CFI.

    Other than that I really don't have a preference. My only requirements at this time would be:

    1) that the position will lead to a wage of a minimum of $60K within a 3 year period.

    2) it is a full time flying position.

    I respectfully ask that you provide any advice to the best of your knowledge. You can list the negative considerations but please don't tell me a flat, "No, don't do it."

    Also, if able, help me avoid or reduce capital gains arising from the property sale.
     
  2. woodstock

    woodstock Final Approach

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    have you lived in this place for 2 of the past five years? that's the best way... otherwise talk to a tax acct, it's too complicated to go into. (for me anyway! :D)
     
  3. Fast n' Furious

    Fast n' Furious Line Up and Wait

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    Richard,
    Take your money. Invest it wisely. Enjoy your return and fly when it suits you.
    Or, just send it to me. For the meager sum of 15,000 dollars I will call you every day (collect of course) and tell you what a wonderful thing you have done for aviation having fronting the cost of a new paint job and interior for my Mooney. Yearly, I will let you visit my Mooney (virtually via teleconference or course) but I will send you a monthly letter praising your generousity.
    Really, if you want to be a CFI then by all means be a CFI. But please be a good one as there are sadly some not so good ones and lately they seem to be doing volume business. Don't expect to get rich unless you have a niche so unattainable by the rest of the overpopulation of CFIs that people beat a path to your overbooked door. I don't know what that niche might be but what the heck....look what it did for Tony Robbins.
    CFIs don't get treated terribly well financially generally speaking. You might find a minority who can make a living out of it but it's a definate minority. Show me a guy buying Ramen noodles by the caselot at Sam's Club and I'll show you a commuter pilot or a CFI desperately wanting to step into the commuter pilots shoes. The Ramen is always greener ya know.
    Be a CFI because you have a burning need to teach aviation. I'll take a check by the way with proper identification. Good luck.
     
  4. Dean

    Dean Pattern Altitude

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    I don't want to sound negitive, but if you find this job, please let us know, there are about 100 other pilots on this board looking for one just like that. If you're not picky, you might check with the Columbian drug cartel. Just kidding!
     
  5. Richard

    Richard Final Approach

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    Ack...city life
    I don't think that is unreasonable, especially when factoring COLA, etc. Also, 3 years is enough time to allow for acquiring much valuable (read marketable) experience. If after that you still think such an income is unreasonable perhaps it's time to think beyond the typical employers. However, I am prepared to take an $18/hr position if it will help me achieve my goal.

    Also, for the past 20 months I have been looking at existing business' for sale. I've seen some interesting things but so far nothing that makes me want to sign on the line. Expanding on that I would be willing to partner in a business if the duties include pilot position.

    I expect to be flying F/T before the summer. I have the desire, the credentials, and the financial wherewithal to make it happen. But I'll be dipped if I'm gonna' pizz it away on the same old, same old which hasn't worked for so many who have preceeded me. It's a safe bet to say I will be hustling to get beyond the transition period of up to 13 months.

    I can get $28/hr as a CFI at a local flying club but the monthly avg over the last 2 years is at 30 hours/mo but they always say it will get better. I know better than to act on a promise of two birds in the bush which is what they offer. Somehow they think that counts as a wage benefit.

    BTW: go ahead and sound negative but only if it's reality based. I don't want or can afford the sugar coating.
     
  6. jesse

    jesse Touchdown! Greaser!

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    60k in 3 years is going to be tricky.

    I don't think you are going to be able to accomplish this with the traditional pilot roll.

    I'm not saying it's not possible, but you are going to have to think outside the box as to how you are going to accomplish this. There are thousands of more qualified pilots that are making one third of that. You only have one choice and that is to outsmart them.

    As to how you are going to do this, I couldn't tell you. Good luck!
     
  7. SkyHog

    SkyHog Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Everything Offends Me
    Maybe an idea would be to start your own aviation business of some sort, something no one has seen or thought of before, or at least, something that would be of such use, your local community would be jumping to use that service.
     
  8. Carol

    Carol Line Up and Wait

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    I wonder if something like this is already available on the west coast.
    http://www.satsair.com/

    These folks are already buying 30 more planes.
     
  9. mgkdrgn

    mgkdrgn Pre-takeoff checklist

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    1. I would agree on the CFI thing. The more -good- ones we have, the better.

    2. I don't think I've EVER met a CFI that made 1/2 of $60K a year.

    3. The "three year" target, that dog just isn't going to hunt. You are going to spend at least 5 years, and upwards of $100K of your own money to get the time and ratings necessary to -apply- for a job that will, at best, pay you $25K a year to start. It will be several more years before you get anywhere near that $60K level.

    Brutal, but true.
     
  10. mpartovi

    mpartovi Pre-Flight

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    Hmm...

    I'll also have to agree with the CFI idea...we can never have too many good ones...as they are far and few. Although...I cant see you making all that much from it. I have friends who just started as CFI's and are making in the 18K-22K range. So thats kinda tough.

    The Columbian idea isn't a bad one...ok ok...j/k. But, if you're fluent in Spanish and willing to relocate...I KNOW Charter de Columbia IS hiring guys with as little as 250TT and 50 Multi. They fly mostly KingAir's. But Im geussing you're not willing to go that far.

    I've dealt with the same question in my mind for the longest time. But eventually, I had to bite the bullet and realize the facts. For me, it just wouldn't work. I had to realize that flying as a profession just wasn't going to fit in my plans. Although, this was just me. If you can make it work...GO FOR IT!!!! I for one would love to hear about it in the future about how you got there!
     
  11. Richard

    Richard Final Approach

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    Ack...city life
    A cursory web search last night revealed multiple open positions flying Navajos, B-90, B-200, and Cessna 400 series a/c. Srarting wages listed were from $33.5-$68K flying in domestic US. The lower range did not require an ATP while the upper range would require an ATP and anywhere from 300-500 in type.

    The single engine pilot positions (Piper Lance, etc) are more in line with the numbers you guys are saying. The exception to that is the PC-12 and C-208 with a starting range of $33-48K.

    Not yet mentioned are the employee benefits or, in some cases, relocation allowances.

    EDIT: I realize I would not be able to walk right into one of those twin jobs and that there would be a successful completion of training and sim ride before that would happen. Heck, I imagine even the Lance operators would require at least a sim ride and orientation. There are places like SimCom or FlightSafety who offer type specific transition training. I am wary of paying $24-30K for that training but would consider it a viable option if it is legit and would propel me to the employer's short list of applicants.

    Would you pay $24-33K if it got you a $48K starting wage? When the training costs are amoritized over a 15 yr period and the wage would top out around $70K or more, then I would consider the training, but with conditions. Those conditions mostly revolve around the legitimacy of the training provider.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2006
  12. AdamZ

    AdamZ Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Richard:

    1)As for Tax advice on the sale of your property. PLEASE do not rely on the board. While we all may want to help you can get more comprehensive advice from a Tax Attorney. Money spent to protect your assets is money well spent.

    2) As for your dream... GO FOR IT. Most of the jobs you are or will be eligible for may have crud for pay and nothing in the way of benes. Don't let that stop you. My suggestion create your own opportunity. I am sure there are several mismanaged private airports around the country that are aching for some competent and service oriented individual to purchase them. If not the airport then the FBO. ( I have heard of two locally). It may afford you the opportunity to earn as both a CFI and and investor with other income opportunities at the field. food, Fuel, Car Rental etc.
    IMHO you need to speak with Ron L for the final word. Aviation businesses are tough get some expert advice before you move on it.

    I always thought it would be cool to be a mfgrs rep for someone like Piper, Pilatus TBM etc. GOOD LUCK and GO FOR IT
     
  13. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    EEEsh, the $60+k within three years, that's tough. Two ways I can think of. Aerial Photography and Pipeline Patrol (your business and contracts, not just you working as a pilot for someone else). You can CFI on the side for a bit of money as well, but you aren't gonna make $60k at it. Get a tailwheel plane, you can use it for patrol/photo & TW endorsements. Cardinal RGs are very good platforms as well.
     
  14. Dave Krall CFII

    Dave Krall CFII Final Approach

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    Now when you say "full time", do you mean 32 hrs/week or 70-80 hours/week ?
     
  15. Richard

    Richard Final Approach

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    Ack...city life
    Adam, point taken. Rest assured, whatever advice I got here I would run by my accountant before acting upon. However, I know there is some expert professionals here.

    Henning, I have looked at existing banner and survey ops. Banner is a, uh, 'scroungy' business and survey scares me because of too much potential liab. Acquiring the knowledge to minimize that risk is the hard part. Taking a knowledgeable partner would be...well, taking a partner which is pretty scary in itself.

    Dave, you are a funny guy. The answer is whatever it takes balanced against avoiding burnout.

    Keep 'em coming gang. I've finally been able to talk my wife into letting me pursue this. She has always been very supportive of me but this will be a life change. It's gonna' work out.
     
  16. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Ohhhhhh...So mister High and Mighty Orthomaxiofacial Whatever is above "Scroungy"....hhmmmmph:p .Not all aerial photo is survey style. Most all of what I did was high quality oblique (out the side window, right time of day for the light...) for realtor and insurance purposes as well as private use. I also did yacht races and sales/charter promo shots. Another good plane for this would be a 205/206 with a jump door, you can make a great mount for camera gear and haul skydivers as well, and have a kickin camper for the family. You can pull in $60k a year and put maybe 90 days a year into it once you get organized. BTW, you don't have to "take a partner", you can just outright pay someone to manage and teach you till you're up to speed technically. As far as the business part, that's like all other sales jobs, meet and greet. Tell them how your product will help them with whatever market. Basic Sales 101.
     
  17. woodstock

    woodstock Final Approach

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    Dave, clearly 80 hours a week is barely half time. what are you thinking?
     
  18. Michael

    Michael Pattern Altitude

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    how about.
    Set up camp across from 6 flags magic mountain, or maybe the fairgrounds in pamona. and offer airplane/helicopter senic rides?
    In Laughlin one of the casinos offer helicopter rides, IIRC they charged 25 per person, the ride lasts aprox 15 minutes. And I have never seen that thing not flying.
     
  19. SkyHog

    SkyHog Touchdown! Greaser!

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    wow....thats an excellent idea. Can't do Disneyland though (*grumbles about TFRs for private companies*).

    That could be a serious money maker right there.
     
  20. Dean

    Dean Pattern Altitude

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    Table Rock Helicopter tours in Branson, MO is for sale. Owner retiring and Matt has moved on to fly for another company. You can buy it as a turn key operation or what ever you want. If you are interested, let me know, I have the number.
     
  21. woodstock

    woodstock Final Approach

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    Nick, your avatar looks like a cross between the dancing hippo and that looter guy from Nawlins. is that the case?
     
  22. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The world does need good airplane brokers with excellent reputations, especially ones that can provide CFI services for transition training....
     
  23. John J

    John J Line Up and Wait

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    Richard;

    I would try the aerial route that Henning mentions. When I flew as a young pilot commercialy I use to take photographers out to a lot of different kinds of aerial work, developments, real estate, ship yards, even boats. A lot of big boat owners loved to get arerials of their floating palaces..I got paid 5.00 per hour as an 18 year old kid in 1962 flying these flights. Of course I did not own the plane but it was a lot of fun.

    I got to meet a fellow who started with the basics (a Champ) and moved up to the 206 with all the goodies for aerial work.

    It is nice work and you get to fly when the weather is great and get to meet all kinds of people who may lead you on to another flying job.

    Chase your dream and have fun

    John
     
  24. Richard

    Richard Final Approach

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    Ack...city life
    What I meant by 'scroungy' WRT aerial advertising ops was that every single one I have looked at to buy (5 so far) the current principals spooked me out. A couple even creeped me out. All of them were very eager to sell but very unwilling to negotiate. Weird.

    One guy kept showing me all the contracts he had but wouldn't allow me to see his Schedule C or even a P&L. When I pointed out the expired dateson the contracts he showed he said that doesn't matter since the contracts automatically renew. Two others wouldn't allow my appraiser near their a/c or equipment storage rooms. Two would not let me speak to their employees in private and the other three gave in to my demand for this but very reluctantly.

    One guy wouldn't provide anything until after I signed a non-compete. I did but he still refused on grounds that my wife hadn't signed. I could go on and on but it basically comes down to good faith and 5 out of 5 acted like it was a disease.
     
  25. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Welcome to the world of buying a business - especially a small business. NExt you'll find folks that have an inflated worth of their business.

    I understand not allowing you to talk to employees - that's pretty common. I've gone in - or sent folks in - as "consultants" or similar titles. Often is forbidden to tell employees what you're doing. That's because a lot of owners think their employees will bolt if the deal falls through. After all, they KNOW the company is for sale. Talking with employees is for after the definitive agreement is signed.

    BTDT, don't need a hotel room.
     
  26. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    You don't have to go on, I know exactly the type of people you met :D . That's hy I was saying, you can start from scratch. Banner tow would not be my prefered operation to buy into, and for what people want for a list of phone numbers (that's basically all you are buying "business" wise anyway) is ridiculous. None of these businesses is worth paying for. The hardware and facilities might be, even leases, but typically the business end is "blue sky". It's like anything else if you want to do it right. Find your niche, what you want to do and what market you want to serve. One of my little lessons I've taken from life so far, If you're going to cater to someone and K!ss A$$, might as well cater to the rich who can pay you well for it.
     
  27. Dave Krall CFII

    Dave Krall CFII Final Approach

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    People LOVE biplanes...the worst of highwing AND lowwing traits combined ! The 1929 Waco at BFI seems to be booked tight on nice summer days to carry 2 flightseers for typically short hops in the open air with their new silk scarves and leather jackets buffeting in the slipstream, which they may purchase after suitable sentimental bonding has provided a profit margin.

    Two biplanes could provide multiply videoed, lazer shot, mock combat flights of the WWI era vintage -you can tell them you were there ! But I wouldn't expect them to be booked as heavily as the Marchettis are for a few weeks each summer of mock combat, then again, who knows ?
     
  28. flyifrvfr

    flyifrvfr Ejection Handle Pulled

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    The quickest way to make one million dollars in aviation is to spend three million dollars. If it was easy, everybody would be doing it. If you want to make money, buy a nice pressurized cabin class twin and carry showdogs.
     
  29. woodstock

    woodstock Final Approach

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    after my ride in the B17 (open top) I've decided that open air is the way to go. when I finally get done with my PPL I think I'm going to look down that path. fun fun fun - what a blast it was!