Helo Question

Captain

Captain

Final Approach
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So, with my vast helicopter experience I have a suggestion / question. (and by vast experience I mean I have never flown a helicopter)

It seems to me the collective controls power (throttle to the engine) and pitch to all blades and the cyclic controls pitch and roll by changing individual blade pitch throughout the arc of the main blade.

If that supposition is true then I would further surmise that of the two it would be easier to momentarily let go of the collective during flight than the cyclic.

If BOTH of those are true then why is the collective located on the outboard of the aircraft? That makes each pilot use the wrong hand to do housekeeping tasks like tuning the radio and setting altimeters.

Seems to me that if I'm sitting in the right seat with my left hand on the cyclic and my right hand on the collective then to tune the radio I have to let go of the collective with my right hand and hold the cyclic while I use my left hand to dial a new frequency in the radio. Either that or I have to let go of the collective with my right hand and reach across and dial the radio with my right hand.

Wouldn't it make more sense to put the collective in the middle so if I'm in the right seat I use my left hand for the collective and my right for the cyclic? That way it's an easy matter to let go with my left hand momentarily and tune a radio.

Please let me know where my logic falls apart here. Thanks in advance.

Captain.
 
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Captain said:
So, with my vast helicopter experience I have a suggestion / question. (and by vast experience I mean I have never flown a helicopter)

It seems to me the collective controls power (throttle to the engine) and pitch to all blades and the cyclic controls pitch and roll by changing individual blade pitch throughout the arc of the main blade.

If that supposition is true then I would further surmise that of the two it would be easier to momentarily let go of the collective during flight than the cyclic.

If BOTH of those are true then why is the collective located on the outboard of the aircraft? That makes each pilot use the wrong hand to do housekeeping tasks like tuning the radio and setting altimeters.

Seems to me that if I'm sitting in the right seat with my left hand on the cyclic and my right hand on the collective then to tune the radio I have to let go of the collective with my right hand and hold the cyclic while I use my left hand to dial a new frequency in the radio. Either that or I have to let go of the collective with my right hand and reach across and dial the radio with my right hand.

Wouldn't it make more sense to put the collective in the middle so if I'm in the right seat I use my left hand for the collective and my right for the cyclic? That way it's an easy matter to let go with my left hand momentarily and tune a radio.

Please let me know where my logic falls apart here. Thanks in advance.

Captain.
Click to expand...

The collective will always be to the pilot's left irregardless of which seat he is flying in. Also, the cyclic will always be in the right hand.

Typically PIC in a helicopter is right seat. On some helicopters (Bell47, Hughes 300C,Hughes 500C) due to 3 across seating the PIC is to the left.
 
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If I'm in the right seat the collective in in my LEFT hand???

I did not know that. Okay...never mind. Thought I was on to something.
 
As far as letting go of the collective, it's done all of the time. Heck, when I was flying CH-47Ds, we could just punch on the AFCS and let go of everything. That's on the rare occasion that everything was working.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
The collective will always be to the pilot's left irregardless of which seat he is flying in. Also, the cyclic will always be in the right hand.

Typically PIC in a helicopter is right seat. On some helicopters (Bell47, Hughes 300C,Hughes 500C) due to 3 across seating the PIC is to the left.
Click to expand...

Absolutely correct, in addition on most helicopters there is a friction adjustment which can lock the collective in place for temporary use of your hand. I have very little solo experience in rotors, just what I garnered in initial transition training, as all operational missions I flew were with two man crews up front. It won't be long until voice recognition management systems eliminate the need to twist knobs.
 
Quite a bit of my flying is solo in helicopters. As noted the collective is always in your left hand no matter what seat you are in. As in most single pilot helicopters you want (required might be a better word) to sit in the right seat. As in radio tuning and other task it is wise to get it all done before you hover taxi...otherwise you do the, start a slight climb...quick do what you need to do...go back down....hover dance. Additionally I usually talk to tower when I hover taxi so I can get a take-off clearance from a taxiway and it saves me the freq. change to tower. If I have to do something something like changing my transponder code, I usually set it down (I once had tower apologize after he seen me set it down.) After you get your power set (with a little friction applied) on climb out or cruse you have the left hand free. Hope this helps.
 
Would it be common on a helicopter to have the flip-flop button for Com1 pulled out to the cyclic ?
 
I have never flown an Army helicopter that had an avionics master switch....a flip-flop would be way too much!!!
 
Rotor&Wing said:
The collective will always be to the pilot's left irregardless of which seat he is flying in. Also, the cyclic will always be in the right hand.
Click to expand...
Can you imagine trying to fly with the cyclic in your left hand and collective in your right? I think I'd be upside down in about 10 seconds.
 
gismo said:
Can you imagine trying to fly with the cyclic in your left hand and collective in your right? I think I'd be upside down in about 10 seconds.
Click to expand...

And that was my misunderstanding. I thought the collective was on the outboard for both seats. oops.
 
Captain said:
And that was my misunderstanding. I thought the collective was on the outboard for both seats. oops.
Click to expand...

No problem, it's called "learning".

As a side note, if the helicopter is properly rigged you should be able to take your hand off of the collective in a 3 foot hover with very little up and down movement. Once you gain more experience it's not that big of a deal to use the controls and make adjustments (radios, maps, etc). It comes with experience.
 
NEVER take your hands off the controls of a helicopter.

That said, in reality yes you will, though I won't in a hover - unnecessary risk.

Schweizer has a real easy to apply collective friction and if you trim the cyclic correctly you can take your all your limbs off of all the controls and it will keep on keeping on, pretty neat for something that is dynamically unstable.

Bell 47 as noted LH PIC the collective friction is a rotating knob to your right, in other words not easy at all to apply. Normal procedure to squawk a code or change stations in the Bell 47 is to take right foot across both pedals, move left leg over and jam knee under collective, move collective hand to cyclic and use cyclic hand to make changes. It is quite and intricate dance but you get good at it after a while - again I wouldn't attempt it during hover, though the 47 will remain fairly stable if you let go of the cyclic in a hover it is still an unnecessary risk.

As noted proper planning combined with "helicopter 12345..." in your calls will usually negate having to switch from tower to ground, etc, etc. The Schweizer I flew had a cyclic controlled flip flop but since those cost money it is the exception not the norm. During IFR I usually just used the Frequency page on the Garmin and you could just cycle through them in order - CD, GRD, TWR, DEP, etc.

EDIT - the optional method is just to stabilize the cyclic by trapping it with your knees and using your cyclic hand to make changes. As stated though if you suffered a tail rotor failure or some kind of power failure while your hands or feet were off the controls then good luck trying to get it under control. It is just an unnecessary risk, tell whoever UNABLE, changing frequencies is way less important than crashing.
 
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jaybee said:
NEVER take your hands off the controls of a helicopter.

That said, in reality yes you will, though I won't in a hover - unnecessary risk.

Schweizer has a real easy to apply collective friction and if you trim the cyclic correctly you can take your all your limbs off of all the controls and it will keep on keeping on, pretty neat for something that is dynamically unstable.

Bell 47 as noted LH PIC the collective friction is a rotating knob to your right, in other words not easy at all to apply. Normal procedure to squawk a code or change stations in the Bell 47 is to take right foot across both pedals, move left leg over and jam knee under collective, move collective hand to cyclic and use cyclic hand to make changes. It is quite and intricate dance but you get good at it after a while - again I wouldn't attempt it during hover, though the 47 will remain fairly stable if you let go of the cyclic in a hover it is still an unnecessary risk.

As noted proper planning combined with "helicopter 12345..." in your calls will usually negate having to switch from tower to ground, etc, etc. The Schweizer I flew had a cyclic controlled flip flop but since those cost money it is the exception not the norm. During IFR I usually just used the Frequency page on the Garmin and you could just cycle through them in order - CD, GRD, TWR, DEP, etc.

EDIT - the optional method is just to stabilize the cyclic by trapping it with your knees and using your cyclic hand to make changes. As stated though if you suffered a tail rotor failure or some kind of power failure while your hands or feet were off the controls then good luck trying to get it under control. It is just an unnecessary risk, tell whoever UNABLE, changing frequencies is way less important than crashing.
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lol, yeah. I wouldn't want the radio to get in the way of my crashing!
 
Almost forgot, there are four controls in the helo. Anti-torque pedals, cyclic pitch, collective pitch and throttle. The throttle and collective pitch controls are collocated on the collective pitch change lever.

Your statement "It seems to me the collective controls power (throttle to the engine)" is kind of true but simplistic. It probably make perfect sense to you if you think of it like a controllable pitch prop. The combination of pitch control and throttle will give you the desired output. In helicopter operations rotor rpm is life, so the object is to keep the RRPM in spec at all times through the combination of throttle and pitch inputs. Pull more pitch than you have throttle for than your RRPM will decay. So saying simply that throttle controls RPM and collective controls MAP is not true.
 
jaybee said:
As noted proper planning combined with "helicopter 12345..." in your calls will usually negate having to switch from tower to ground, etc, etc.
Click to expand...

Never paid much attention, but do they usually allow you to go to Tower before you start to hover-taxi from the hangars to the runway ?
 
jaybee said:
NEVER take your hands off the controls of a helicopter.

That said, in reality yes you will, though I won't in a hover - unnecessary risk.

Schweizer has a real easy to apply collective friction and if you trim the cyclic correctly you can take your all your limbs off of all the controls and it will keep on keeping on, pretty neat for something that is dynamically unstable.

Bell 47 as noted LH PIC the collective friction is a rotating knob to your right, in other words not easy at all to apply. Normal procedure to squawk a code or change stations in the Bell 47 is to take right foot across both pedals, move left leg over and jam knee under collective, move collective hand to cyclic and use cyclic hand to make changes. It is quite and intricate dance but you get good at it after a while - again I wouldn't attempt it during hover, though the 47 will remain fairly stable if you let go of the cyclic in a hover it is still an unnecessary risk.

As noted proper planning combined with "helicopter 12345..." in your calls will usually negate having to switch from tower to ground, etc, etc. The Schweizer I flew had a cyclic controlled flip flop but since those cost money it is the exception not the norm. During IFR I usually just used the Frequency page on the Garmin and you could just cycle through them in order - CD, GRD, TWR, DEP, etc.

EDIT - the optional method is just to stabilize the cyclic by trapping it with your knees and using your cyclic hand to make changes. As stated though if you suffered a tail rotor failure or some kind of power failure while your hands or feet were off the controls then good luck trying to get it under control. It is just an unnecessary risk, tell whoever UNABLE, changing frequencies is way less important than crashing.
Click to expand...

Once again a properly rigged helicopter will not require a lot of effort when taking your hand off of the collective.

I've always been amazed of what some operators consider "properly rigged". I picked up a H-300C from another company and I couldn't believe how heavy the collective was. In the Hughes/Schweitzer 269 series it's so simple to set the collective centering spring.
 
"Never paid much attention, but do they usually allow you to go to Tower before you start to hover-taxi from the hangars to the runway ?"

Negative in my experience. I would call ground before I picked up to a hover, ask for the taxi clearance and ask if its ok to taxi on tower frequency and dial that in before I picked it up.
In almost all situations after making an approach I taxied to parking with tower.
Sometimes you gotta set it down and change freq.
If you are lucky enough to have a cyclic controlled flip-flop then you can have tower in backup or ground in back up on landing.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Once again a properly rigged helicopter will not require a lot of effort when taking your hand off of the collective.

I've always been amazed of what some operators consider "properly rigged". I picked up a H-300C from another company and I couldn't believe how heavy the collective was. In the Hughes/Schweitzer 269 series it's so simple to set the collective centering spring.
Click to expand...

You need to go down to Bristow Academy in Florida then because 10 out of the 58 Schweizers I flew had ascending or descending collectives :) ( edit - i mean out of the 58 they had I had been in 10 of them )

While I agree that taking your hands off the controls is not a big deal, especially when properly rigged, I cannot and will not recommend that someone do it. What happens when you are PIC is your call, for me no matter how well rigged I will not release controls at a hover. Simply not enough time to react if something were to happen.
 
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drizzt76 said:
I have never flown an Army helicopter that had an avionics master switch....a flip-flop would be way too much!!!
Click to expand...
Really? I'm curious about this - Are the avionics directly connected to the bus?

What are you using to power your avionics? Don't you use inverters and 400Hz power for your avionics?
 
Fearless Tower said:
Really? I'm curious about this - Are the avionics directly connected to the bus?

What are you using to power your avionics? Don't you use inverters and 400Hz power for your avionics?
Click to expand...

I know one radio (Wulfsburg) runs on DC while other radios run off the inverter. Some of the "Singars" FM radios run off the DC also. You simply get programed to turn on all the radios manually.
 
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