Haze and maintaining VFR

[colohan]

Then put it through its paces, including learning all the different ways to turn it off.

Just in case folks miss this part -- this is important! A few months ago I went on one of my first flights where I was using an autopilot extensively (why not try it out?). I was cruising along in a rented 172SP chatting with my friend, and then noticed I was gaining altitude and slowing down, and the trim wheel was continuously spinning...

I didn't stall, but it sure was hard to fight the full nose-up trim while figuring out where the damn autopilot fuse was and how to pull it (since I have never had to pull a fuse before....). It turns out that somewhere in the system was a stuck contact or a short, and it just randomly gave me a runaway trim condition to deal with. I learned a lot from that.

 

[2256Q]

Just in case folks miss this part -- this is important! A few months ago I went on one of my first flights where I was using an autopilot extensively (why not try it out?). I was cruising along in a rented 172SP chatting with my friend, and then noticed I was gaining altitude and slowing down, and the trim wheel was continuously spinning...

I didn't stall, but it sure was hard to fight the full nose-up trim while figuring out where the damn autopilot fuse was and how to pull it (since I have never had to pull a fuse before....). It turns out that somewhere in the system was a stuck contact or a short, and it just randomly gave me a runaway trim condition to deal with. I learned a lot from that.

Old truism - know your airplane AT LEAST as well as you know your wife.

 

[dmccormack]

Just in case folks miss this part -- this is important! A few months ago I went on one of my first flights where I was using an autopilot extensively (why not try it out?). I was cruising along in a rented 172SP chatting with my friend, and then noticed I was gaining altitude and slowing down, and the trim wheel was continuously spinning...

I didn't stall, but it sure was hard to fight the full nose-up trim while figuring out where the damn autopilot fuse was and how to pull it (since I have never had to pull a fuse before....). It turns out that somewhere in the system was a stuck contact or a short, and it just randomly gave me a runaway trim condition to deal with. I learned a lot from that.

Some autopilots can exceed the pilot's ability to overcome the runaway with control inputs -- if you find the AP misbehaving, disconnect immediately -- DON'T fight the AP with the yoke!!

 

[Danos]

Just in case folks miss this part -- this is important! A few months ago I went on one of my first flights where I was using an autopilot extensively (why not try it out?). I was cruising along in a rented 172SP chatting with my friend, and then noticed I was gaining altitude and slowing down, and the trim wheel was continuously spinning...

I didn't stall, but it sure was hard to fight the full nose-up trim while figuring out where the damn autopilot fuse was and how to pull it (since I have never had to pull a fuse before....). It turns out that somewhere in the system was a stuck contact or a short, and it just randomly gave me a runaway trim condition to deal with. I learned a lot from that.

The AP fuse is one of the first things I look for in an unfamilliar plane. Runaway is a killer. Glad to hear you handled it.

 

[bbchien]

Yeah, like preflighting the autopilot. It's part of the operating limitations in the back of the POH....

 

[AuntPeggy]

He bought the airplane with an installed S-TEC AP (I forget the model -- it's in the Turn coordinator). It took some practice in severe VFR, but I actually like it -- it has a wing leveler, a turn right/left (no more than standard rate), a HDG function (flies to the Heading bug) and LO and HI Nav tracking.

It has altitude hold, but you need to get trimmed up and then set it. It shrieks if it gets out of trim.

The Bonanza A36 has a Century 21 -- pretty nice system as well, but vacuum driven.

Careful. My S-TEC autopilot is as you describe. On a few occasions it takes several mintes (up to 15) for the altitude hold self-test to complete. An uncommanded dive or climb will result from not noticing. Sometimes happens other times. I won't trust altitude hold below 4000 AGL which gives enough time to hit the AP master.

 

[gprellwitz]

Some autopilots can exceed the pilot's ability to overcome the runaway with control inputs -- if you find the AP misbehaving, disconnect immediately -- DON'T fight the AP with the yoke!!

That's undoubtedly true on some planes. On the Cessnas that I typically fly, the preflight consists in part of ensuring that the pilot CAN overcome the autopilot. As Bruce mentions, it is a mandatory preflight check on any flight during which the autopilot will be used.

 

[jesse]

That's undoubtedly true on some planes. On the Cessnas that I typically fly, the preflight consists in part of ensuring that the pilot CAN overcome the autopilot. As Bruce mentions, it is a mandatory preflight check on any flight during which the autopilot will be used.

The planes I've flown with AP were the same. I made sure I could overpower it during run-up. I also make it a habit to verify fuse / breaker location for autopilot and/or electric trim on each plane I fly.

If I was VMC and started having major issues and the breaker was hard to get at or took too much time to pull..I'd go for the master.

 

[Anthony]

Ha, I think PA is the haze capital of the world. Its like flying in a light bulb when the sun is setting just when you're coming back from a day trip. Ugly.

 

[dmccormack]

That's undoubtedly true on some planes. On the Cessnas that I typically fly, the preflight consists in part of ensuring that the pilot CAN overcome the autopilot. As Bruce mentions, it is a mandatory preflight check on any flight during which the autopilot will be used.

The STEC-55 has that check as part of the preflight - The Century 21 in the A36 does NOT.

Counter the AP with yoke in the A36 and you can soon be in very deep scat.

It is very important to read and heed the POH before engaging any autopilot.

 

[gprellwitz]

It is very important to read and heed the POH before engaging any autopilot.

 

[Rob Schaffer]

Wow,... great discussion this has become. I have the full manual for the KAP 140AP in the Cessna 172 I'm renting,.. and reading away. There's a disconnect fuse, only one that you pull to disconnect, on the panel, and the red disconnect on the yoke, along with the AP button on the unit itself.

Still reading away, and hope to get a flight soon with a buddy.

 

[30703]

Rob,
I would definitely try to climb above the haze and to be on flight following so that you can be under ATC watch. Few summer ago coming back after a practice session on a very hazy day, we pretty much had to rely on the GPS and VOR to find our way back to our home airport. We had our instrument ratings but did not feel the need to get a popup IFR clearance. There was another pilot on the frequency who confessed to the tower that he could not locate the airport eventhough he was only a few miles away. The tower asked him if he had our plane in sight and asked him to follow us to the airport. Since we had turned on all the lights, it did not take him long to spot our plane.

hpl

 

[Rob Schaffer]

wow,.. it wasn't that thick here, but I was lower than I would have liked. I had on the nav, strobe, and taxi lights. Within 5 miles of LOM, I turned off the taxi and turned on the Landing light.

Great night tonight after the clouds cleared out today, and a nice calm wind to keep things moving. To bad I couldn't rent tonight, it would have been nice. Saw their Kappa LSA fly over the house on the way back towards LOM.

 

[dmccormack]

Rob,
I would definitely try to climb above the haze and to be on flight following so that you can be under ATC watch. Few summer ago coming back after a practice session on a very hazy day, we pretty much had to rely on the GPS and VOR to find our way back to our home airport. We had our instrument ratings but did not feel the need to get a popup IFR clearance. There was another pilot on the frequency who confessed to the tower that he could not locate the airport eventhough he was only a few miles away. The tower asked him if he had our plane in sight and asked him to follow us to the airport. Since we had turned on all the lights, it did not take him long to spot our plane.

hpl

The hardest ones to spot are those coming directly at you -- there's no relative movement (which is easier to notice), and the closing speeds often make time to impact seconds.

Keep in mind that Traffic Advisories/Flight Following services are workload permitting. I've seen almost as many unannounced a/c as I've had pointed out to me, including a C-17 way too close for comfort (and that was on an IFR flight).

Unless you let the controller know you're in IMC, he/she may alert you to other traffic. You must let them know "Unable -- in cloud" or whatever. Let the controller know you are limited vis (he doesn't have a cloud or haze display so has no idea you're in the soup) and are unable to see other traffic (OK if your IFR, but may required some 'splainin' if you're VFR).

See and Avoid means head's on a swivel and eyes are OUTSIDE, looking for traffic whenever VFR -- whether on IFR flight plan or Flight Following.

 

[Ted]

This is a great thread! Rob, a few comments.

MVFR conditions, in a lot of cases, are IFR conditions as far as I'm concerned. I have had more than one VFR flight when I would have filed IFR if I had the rating. However, now that I am close to my IFR check ride, I'm more comfortable with making those trips because I have a backup. Here are a few things I'd consider, and these are just observations based on my own flying:

1) Before IFR training, I've ended up trying to fly VFR. A few times I went up on days I knew that I wouldn't be able to make my flight just to see what it was like. I found myself doing stupid mistakes that I would never have done in better visibility. Too steep banks, too high of a climb (low airspeed). Wow, I would think, I can see how someone would die in these conditions.

Most recently, a few weeks ago, I made an MVFR trip where for a good portion of it, I was just flying instruments, with checking for aircraft. By this point, I'm comfortable with it, but I'm also pretty close to being instrument rated. This leads into...

2) Adam talked about having to do an approach possibly if he flew out of LOM, and he knows that airport. Now, I fly everywhere with my IFR charts and approach plates, even though I'm not IFR rated. Why? It gives me an extra out, just in case. My instructor made me do an ILS in my private training just so that if I got stuck in IMC and Williamsport was closest, I could call up NY Center (124.9... a frequency I have memorized and is also listed in my A/FD that I always carry with me), admit my stupidity, and get vectors.

So, this leads into the aeronautical decision making aspect of it. You talked about the flight back. I know I tend to get a case of "Gotta get home"-itis when I've flown into a place and I need to get home because the plane needs to get back, I have work the next day, etc. I try to make sure I have an out, either I can easily find the airport for some reason or (what I do now), keep the IFR charts and approach plates.

I'm not saying you made a bad decision. I wasn't there, I am not one to judge your abilities, and furthermore you made it home safely (all that matters). I know I have probably made a few decisions that others would say I shouldn't, and admittedly placed me in a situation where I had fewer outs in case of a problem. Just things to consider. One thing I'll definitely say, though:

Go get that instrument rating!

 

[jesse]

I've done plenty of VFR flights in marginal conditions and have sadly become quite comfortable with it. I'm not too terribly far from my instrument rating either--and am fairly confident that I can do an approach safely.

All that said, I won't be flying with my primary reference to instruments as you've said above. Without an IFR plan a collision with IFR traffic is way too likely. Best to either look out the window or stay on the ground. If you get forced onto instruments--call up center, declare an emergency, and land. Way too many "almost IFR" people killed pretending they were rated. Also, the IFR folks are depending on the traffic in IFR conditions as being on a flight plan for traffic seperation. If you aren't on an IFR plan you need to be looking out the window--no reason to risk the life of those playing by the rules.

If you can't maintain safe flight by looking out the window YOU ARE IN IFR conditions, it doesn't matter what that METAR 15 miles west of you on the ground says.

 

[dmccormack]

I've done plenty of VFR flights in marginal conditions and have sadly become quite comfortable with it. I'm not too terribly far from my instrument rating either--and am fairly confident that I can do an approach safely.

All that said, I won't be flying with my primary reference to instruments as you've said above. Without an IFR plan a collision with IFR traffic is way too likely. Best to either look out the window or stay on the ground. If you get forced onto instruments--call up center, declare an emergency, and land. Way too many "almost IFR" people killed pretending they were rated. Also, the IFR folks are depending on the traffic in IFR conditions as being on a flight plan for traffic seperation. If you aren't on an IFR plan you need to be looking out the window--no reason to risk the life of those playing by the rules.

If you can't maintain safe flight by looking out the window YOU ARE IN IFR conditions, it doesn't matter what that METAR 15 miles west of you on the ground says.

Excellent point (wasn't JFK jr "almost" rated?)

More than any other rating/cert, the IFR is a license to learn. You don't get the rating Monday, then plan to fly a long XC through moderate turbulence, precip, an approach to mins -- the works -- a month later and expect to do well.

Even rated pilots need to continually practice and stretch the envelope in ever more challenging conditions.

And -- if in VFR conditions -- an IFR pilot is still responsible for see-and-avoid.

Not every target is visible to the controller.

 

[bbchien]

The STEC-55 has that check as part of the preflight - The Century 21 in the A36 does NOT.

Counter the AP with yoke in the A36 and you can soon be in very deep scat.

It is very important to read and heed the POH before engaging any autopilot.

No kididng. But help me here, I don't know of a Century 21 AP. There is a IIB, and a Century 41, but I don't know of a 21. Both the 41 and the IIb have override disconnect checks in their AFM supplements.

Since I teach in many types, I have most of these documents handy.....

 

[Ted]

If you read my post, you'd note I was using both instruments and looking out the window. The point is to enhance safety this way. If you disagree, that's fine. I disagree with your point that it is dangerous to fly like this. I would say it's far more dangerous to fly without being on flight following in VFR conditions. This is why if I'm not on fight following, it's because I'm going a distance of under 30 miles in an uncongested area. The rest of the time, I'm on it unless I get an "unable".

You ALWAYS need to look out the window for traffic, whether you're flying VFR or IFR. The one exception I'd say is if you're in a cloud. I always do. If having the instruments as reference helps enhance my safety (which I would say in MVFR it does), then I don't see an issue. There generally seems to be more accidents involving people not looking at instruments than looking at them.

It seems I was misinterpreted, probably due to poor wording on my part. My point was more to share with Rob what's worked for me to ensure safe flights in conditions that seem similar to what he's stated. So far, it (and anything else I've done) seems to have worked out alright, the plane and I always return home safely. Nobody else seemed to point out that MVFR flight has its dangers, and I know that I have found that referencing the instruments as part of my scan (which still focuses out the window) helps enhance safety for me. If it doesn't for you, that's fine, I'm not pushing any of my practices on anyone, just sharing.

 

[dmccormack]

No kididng. But help me here, I don't know of a Century 21 AP. There is a IIB, and a Century 41, but I don't know of a 21. Both the 41 and the IIb have override disconnect checks in their AFM supplements.

Since I teach in many types, I have most of these documents handy.....

OOps.. typo -- C41.

And yes -- there are several disconnect checks added to preflight.

But that AP will counteract yoke inputs, thus the pilot can -- by controlling with the yoke while the AP is engaged -- get into some serious (and possibly unrecoverable in a Bonanza) trim condition.

 

[jesse]

If you read my post, you'd note I was using both instruments and looking out the window. The point is to enhance safety this way. If you disagree, that's fine. I disagree with your point that it is dangerous to fly like this. I would say it's far more dangerous to fly without being on flight following in VFR conditions. This is why if I'm not on fight following, it's because I'm going a distance of under 30 miles in an uncongested area. The rest of the time, I'm on it unless I get an "unable".

You ALWAYS need to look out the window for traffic, whether you're flying VFR or IFR. The one exception I'd say is if you're in a cloud. I always do. If having the instruments as reference helps enhance my safety (which I would say in MVFR it does), then I don't see an issue. There generally seems to be more accidents involving people not looking at instruments than looking at them.

Ted, I don't think you're exactly seeing what I'm saying. I'm not saying that referencing the instruments is a bad thing. I'm saying if one finds themselves in conditions that require them to reference their instruments to maintain VFR and they are not instrument rated they need to call the flight quits and not continue thinking that it is OK. I doubt you continue into such conditions, but it's possible someone could read it that way--that is all.

 

[poadeleted20]

Ted, I don't think you're exactly seeing what I'm saying. I'm not saying that referencing the instruments is a bad thing. I'm saying if one finds themselves in conditions that require them to reference their instruments to maintain VFR and they are not instrument rated they need to call the flight quits and not continue thinking that it is OK.

So you would not fly VFR when there is no visible horizon, say, at night or when visibility is reduced below 5-6 miles? Because you will have to reference the instruments in such conditions.

 

[jesse]

So you would not fly VFR when there is no visible horizon, say, at night or when visibility is reduced below 5-6 miles? Because you will have to reference the instruments in such conditions.

Ron, I think we might have different definitions of horizon. I consider the horizon as being where the air meets the ground. The level point I can reference. If I lose that level point, then yes, I would not continue VFR.

At night, I have such a point as well. There is always the level line that you can see.

I've done plenty of cross countries in 3 mile vis with limited ceilings. There was never a point where I didn't have a horizon I could reference.

My opinion is simple, If you cannot safely fly the airplane VFR by looking out the window--you have no business flying if you're not instrument rated. There have been a couple flights where my VFR conditions deteriated to the point to where I really needed the instruments to continue--and it is at that point that I divert and land.

 

[dmccormack]

Ron, I think we might have different definitions of horizon. I consider the horizon as being where the air meets the ground. The level point I can reference. If I lose that level point, then yes, I would not continue VFR.

At night, I have such a point as well. There is always the level line that you can see.

You must be in a populated area. Here in the Northeast we have some fairly significant stretches with no lights, no horizon on a moonless night.

 

[jesse]

You must be in a populated area. Here in the Northeast we have some fairly significant stretches with no lights, no horizon on a moonless night.

Which you could log as actual if you had to actually use the instruments to keep the right side up. That said, as a non-instrument rated pilot, I would avoid the above.

 

[Ted]

You must be in a populated area. Here in the Northeast we have some fairly significant stretches with no lights, no horizon on a moonless night.

Yep, my first night take off (in an Aztec, no less) had zero horizon. It was a moonless night in a completely unpopulated area. Once I got enough off the ground that I was established on course, I was able to get enough of a horizon via the stars and such. It was a beautiful VFR night flight, not a cloud in the sky. Flying last night for my night currency around KIPT was a much different story.

 

[dmccormack]

Yep, my first night take off (in an Aztec, no less) had zero horizon. It was a moonless night in a completely unpopulated area. Once I got enough off the ground that I was established on course, I was able to get enough of a horizon via the stars and such. It was a beautiful VFR night flight, not a cloud in the sky. Flying last night for my night currency around KIPT was a much different story.

Stars, a layer of clouds, even lights can give a false horizon -- where the horizon tilts one way or the other.

Wrap up that IFR, get proficient, and this will all be academic.

B)

 

[Ted]

Wrap up that IFR, get proficient, and this will all be academic.

B)

2.0 hood time today, 38.5 total. Only requirement left is the 3 hour review. Whether or not that means I'm ready for the check ride is another matter entirely, but I seem to be able to have vision without sight.

 

[2256Q]

Stars, a layer of clouds, even lights can give a false horizon -- where the horizon tilts one way or the other.

Wrap up that IFR, get proficient, and this will all be academic.

B)

Dan is absolutely right about this one. I've run into it more than once. It can be sneaky, so when your eyes tell you something different than the instruments (plural on the instruments), believe the instruments. Flying from East Texas toward El Paso across that big expanse of desert will provide a zero horizon or sometimes the false horizon Dan mentioned. Yep, yep.

 

[mikea]

Do we all do that? Just how high will this thing go...

I've been above 10,000 but that just isn't particularly far from the ground in these parts...

I bought an oxygen kit just so i could try it. Used it once.

At 15,500 i was still getting a little over 100FPM on a near standard Fall day when the certified ceiling is 12,500. I only stopped climbing because I was getting near home and had to get under the Chicago Bravo.

Saw a jet coming into O'Hare UNDER me. B): Bet I was being called out by those dat refuse to talk to us.

It took a l-o-n-g time to get down to 2700 from there! I had to steer away and overshoot the turn to home by a bunch.

 

[2256Q]

It took a l-o-n-g time to get down to 2700 from there! I had to steer away and overshoot the turn to home by a bunch.

Try side-slipping that little puppy next time, Mike. Get you down safely MUCH quicker.

 

[gprellwitz]

Try side-slipping that little puppy next time, Mike. Get you down safely MUCH quicker.

Heck, put it into a spin. You'll get down REAL quick!

 

[2256Q]

Heck, put it into a spin. You'll get down REAL quick!

On occasion I find myself at 12 or 13K and unexpectedly need to get down quickly. It's easy to set up a 6,000 fpm descent. Of course a spin WOULD be quicker, but with my weak wings (according to Cessna and the FAA) I guess I better not try that.

 

[Ted]

On occasion I find myself at 12 or 13K and unexpectedly need to get down quickly. It's easy to set up a 6,000 fpm descent. Of course a spin WOULD be quicker, but with my weak wings (according to Cessna and the FAA) I guess I better not try that.

So Ray, what's your technique for a 6000 FPM descent? This sounds interesting!

 

[2256Q]

So Ray, what's your technique for a 6000 FPM descent? This sounds interesting!

Just a simple side-slip. To avoid shock cooling the gitsos, I leave the throttles alone, maintain heading and cross-control. Personally, I always bank left, but it doesn't matter. Control the rate of descent with the amount of cross-control. Simple maneuver, works in everything I've flown, from F-111 to Cessna 150.

 

[Ted]

I've used the slips for quick descent rates, but in the Archer that makes it about 2000 FPM at max. Then again, I haven't tried to attempt any faster rate of descent. 6000 FPM is something else!

 

[ScottM]

Personally, I always bank left, but it doesn't matter.

Even in right traffic patterns??

 

[2256Q]

I've used the slips for quick descent rates, but in the Archer that makes it about 2000 FPM at max. Then again, I haven't tried to attempt any faster rate of descent. 6000 FPM is something else!

Just takes more bank. Guess I don't give it much thought due to my training and experience. Ha! You want a rapid descent? Roll inverted and pull back for a 70 degree dive. That'll get you down rather quickly. Don't forget the speed brakes. How great it would be to still have a plane that would do that! Oh, well. Dream on, Ray. Anyway, on the cross-controlling, maintain the same AoA and airspeed, just roll more. You should be able to peg the ROC indicator and do so safely. That's assuming, of course, that you have no turkeys in back.

 

[2256Q]

Even in right traffic patterns??

I hate those things as much as I hate flying from the right seat. The approach for civilians into Shepard AFB is a right-hand that makes you think you're going to clip the control tower, then an immediate right onto short final. Do that one on a day you feel sharp.