Grueling endorsement!!

EdFred

Taxi to Parking
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So, I had to ferry dad's plane over to another airport to get it in for annual. Mine is also due by the end of the month. So I figured if I get one plane over there that's one less shuttle trip that needs to be done, because I can pick his up when I drop mine off, and then only need to worry about a ride over to pick my plane up if I don't have dad signed off for solo by then. So while I was there I figured I would get my HP endorsement in a fixed gear 182 with the Chief CFI. He also did my spin training with me for my CFI, so I pretty much knew what to expect.

So we head out to the plane, and he starts it because it's a real bear to start this carb'd 182 in the winter. No biggie. So he gives me the plane, and my instruction are, "taxi to the east end and don't hit anything." Okey dokey. So I get us to the east end without losing (or gaining) any paint, and do the runup. Get ready to take off, and make my radio transmission fail to hear ourselves, and we both realize that this flight is doomed because we have two CFIs on board. (There's no checklist in the plane and.....we....uh both forgot to flip on the master avionics switch, and none of the other Cessna's they rent have one) I said, well it could be worse, and be like when I was up with two CFIs as a candidate. Master swtich on, tranmission made, take the runway, and full power we go. Pretty doggy for a high performance plane if I must say so myself. And it was like 20 degrees, so DA wasn't an excuse. Went to 252turned out of the pattern, did an S turn, a 180, and headed back to the airport. Downwind, prop full, reduce MP, flaps, base, flaps, final, flaps, correct for crosswind, nail the airspeed, and got the stall warning horn to go off 3/4 of a second before the wheels touched.

"Is there anything else you want to do in the plane?"
"Is there anything you need to see?"
"Nope."
"That was probably the toughest endorsement you ever got."
"Yeah, it's like my instrument ride all over again."

Total flight time: 0.5, and, now I'm legal to fly (and instruct) in any trike single under 12,500 that doesn't require a type rating. Doesn't that give you a warm fuzzy feeling? :D
 
So, I had to ferry dad's plane over to another airport to get it in for annual. Mine is also due by the end of the month. So I figured if I get one plane over there that's one less shuttle trip that needs to be done, because I can pick his up when I drop mine off, and then only need to worry about a ride over to pick my plane up if I don't have dad signed off for solo by then. So while I was there I figured I would get my HP endorsement in a fixed gear 182 with the Chief CFI. He also did my spin training with me for my CFI, so I pretty much knew what to expect.

So we head out to the plane, and he starts it because it's a real bear to start this carb'd 182 in the winter. No biggie. So he gives me the plane, and my instruction are, "taxi to the east end and don't hit anything." Okey dokey. So I get us to the east end without losing (or gaining) any paint, and do the runup. Get ready to take off, and make my radio transmission fail to hear ourselves, and we both realize that this flight is doomed because we have two CFIs on board. (There's no checklist in the plane and.....we....uh both forgot to flip on the master avionics switch, and none of the other Cessna's they rent have one) I said, well it could be worse, and be like when I was up with two CFIs as a candidate. Master swtich on, tranmission made, take the runway, and full power we go. Pretty doggy for a high performance plane if I must say so myself. And it was like 20 degrees, so DA wasn't an excuse. Went to 252turned out of the pattern, did an S turn, a 180, and headed back to the airport. Downwind, prop full, reduce MP, flaps, base, flaps, final, flaps, correct for crosswind, nail the airspeed, and got the stall warning horn to go off 3/4 of a second before the wheels touched.

"Is there anything else you want to do in the plane?"
"Is there anything you need to see?"
"Nope."
"That was probably the toughest endorsement you ever got."
"Yeah, it's like my instrument ride all over again."

Total flight time: 0.5, and, now I'm legal to fly (and instruct) in any trike single under 12,500 that doesn't require a type rating. Doesn't that give you a warm fuzzy feeling? :D
uh.......nope. No power on stall? :eek:
 
uh.......nope. No power on stall? :eek:


Say it with me Bruce...............










*sigh*
:D

Seriously, though, I did spin training with him, so he knows I'm proficient. Plus the engine was so tired, I don't think the power on stall would have been any more procounced than my Cherokee.
 
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That is about what mine consisted off. But I still made us (me and the CFI) do 12 TOs and landings in a variety of configurations (3-short, 3-soft, 3-regular, 3-power off precisions to commercial standards) and then we did slow flight, lazy eights, stalls, and steep turns. With the big engine out front I really wanted to see what the nose heavy feel was like.
 
Didn't really notice much nose heaviness. Flying the Arrow was a lot more ....dare I say....complex.
 
Didn't really notice much nose heaviness. Flying the Arrow was a lot more ....dare I say....complex.
Look at page 8 of this pdf. Your CFI....migh have some 'splaining to do if you smush it.

See page 8 under "airwork". Sigh.
 

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Plus the engine was so tired, I don't think the power on stall would have been any more procounced than my Cherokee.

I was gonna say... The 182 should not be "doggy" as you described it. With a CFI on a summer day I expect a bare minimum of 800fpm. This time of year... Well, I was getting 1700fpm with another person on board recently, and it's quite common to have initial climb angles (deck angle, that is) of 15-20 degrees.

The 182, Dakota, and other 230-hp range planes aren't gonna give you a kick in the pants like the 300's do, but they should still perform well.

BTW, my CFI really made the HP endorsement a learning experience for me. Sure you can fly HP's legally now, but IMHO the CFI really shorted you. ESPECIALLY since you are now OK to give that endorsement to others. I hope you can learn more about the quirks of HP so that you can do for your students what this CFI did not do for you.
 
Didn't really notice much nose heaviness. Flying the Arrow was a lot more ....dare I say....complex.

What HP 182 did you fly? I did mine in the 182rg which had the 230hp in it. Th e biggest difference I noticed was the slow touch down speed and high nose made it tough to see forward. Soft TOs were almost tailwheel like in their visibility forward.
 
Pretty doggy for a high performance plane if I must say so myself. And it was like 20 degrees, so DA wasn't an excuse.

Shouldn't be for a 182 with only two aboard. Ours goes like hell and climbs far better than any 4 cyl plane I've been in. When I switch back to the 172, I wonder where the engine is when I cob it for the takeoff roll. :rolleyes:

I'm suprised he didn't have you do any TnG's! That is the biggest place I noticed a big difference due to HP. When you cob the 182 on a touch and go, man does it want to go left. You really have to be ready with lots of right rudder.
 
Honestly, this thing was such a dog, that I think my dad's Cherokee had a higher rate of climb. On takeoff there was hardly any need for right rudder at all. My Cherokee yaws more when full power was given. I was expecting this massive yaw to the left when the throttle went to the firewall, and there was nary a swing from centerline. On landing, I could still see the runway with no issues during the flare, even when the stall warning horn was going off. The 152 we did the spin training seemed to have a higher AoA on landing than the 182 did. All in all, this 182 may have had a engine rated at 235HP, but I doubt it was producing it.

And that's the other thing. The outside visibiliy in that 182 SUCKED. My head and eyes were above the top of the side window. I could see straight down, and that's it.
 
I'm legal to fly (and instruct) in any trike single under 12,500 that doesn't require a type rating.
You sure there is no "trike single under 12,500 that doesn't require a type rating" that requires a high altitude endorsement, or do you already have that one?
 
You sure there is no "trike single under 12,500 that doesn't require a type rating" that requires a high altitude endorsement, or do you already have that one?

Damn, I forgot about that endorsement. :)

Ok, no pressurized, conventional gear, type rating singles.
 
You sure there is no "trike single under 12,500 that doesn't require a type rating" that requires a high altitude endorsement, or do you already have that one?

Damn, I forgot about that endorsement. :)

Ok, no pressurized, conventional gear, type rating singles.

When the single engine light-jets come out they will be under 12,500lbs right? Won't people still need a type rating to fly those because of the turbine engine?

Hey and speaking of that does a Cessna Caravan require a type rating?
 
When the single engine light-jets come out they will be under 12,500lbs right? Won't people still need a type rating to fly those because of the turbine engine?

Hey and speaking of that does a Cessna Caravan require a type rating?

§ 61.31 Type rating requirements, additional training, and authorization requirements.

(a) Type ratings required. A person who acts as a pilot in command of any of the following aircraft must hold a type rating for that aircraft:
(1) Large aircraft (except lighter-than-air).
(2) Turbojet-powered airplanes.
(3) Other aircraft specified by the Administrator through aircraft type certificate procedures.
 
And that's the other thing. The outside visibiliy in that 182 SUCKED. My head and eyes were above the top of the side window. I could see straight down, and that's it.

Yes, I have to duck down to look out of the side windows.
 
What HP 182 did you fly? I did mine in the 182rg which had the 230hp in it. Th e biggest difference I noticed was the slow touch down speed and high nose made it tough to see forward. Soft TOs were almost tailwheel like in their visibility forward.

The 182's are all 230hp from the factory except the Turbo 182T and the 182RG's which are 235. Of course, there's a lot of STC's for 260, 285, etc. I wouldn't expect one that's that much of a dog to have anything more than 230, and it's probably producing much less than that.
 
Honestly, this thing was such a dog, that I think my dad's Cherokee had a higher rate of climb. On takeoff there was hardly any need for right rudder at all.

Shouldn't be, if you set trim before takeoff.

And that's the other thing. The outside visibiliy in that 182 SUCKED. My head and eyes were above the top of the side window. I could see straight down, and that's it.

Yeah, I'm looking right at the wing root if I'm sitting up. Needless to say, I do a lot of ducking and slouching in the 182!
 
The 182's are all 230hp from the factory except the Turbo 182T and the 182RG's which are 235. Of course, there's a lot of STC's for 260, 285, etc. I wouldn't expect one that's that much of a dog to have anything more than 230, and it's probably producing much less than that.
I thought there were some 200 hp 182s out there or maybe I am thinking about Arrows
 
Aren't the seats height-adjustable? The 2 different 182's I've flown both had height adjustments on the seat...
 
Aren't the seats height-adjustable? The 2 different 182's I've flown both had height adjustments on the seat...
Greg, Ed Fred is a Beanpole. He barely has enough headroom.

And Ed, Try a King Air C90A. No type rating. Two TurboPROPELLORS and under 12,500 pounds.
 
Greg, Ed Fred is a Beanpole. He barely has enough headroom.

And Ed, Try a King Air C90A. No type rating. Two TurboPROPELLORS and under 12,500 pounds.

Ah, but I don't have my MEI, let alone a plain ole multi rating.
 
It was set for take off. Lined it right up. Probably just a tired, tired, tired engine.

No, just properly set trim. When you set the trim to the lines, that's takeoff trim. When you're in a high speed cruise, rudder trim will be almost all the way to the left.
 
Aren't the seats height-adjustable? The 2 different 182's I've flown both had height adjustments on the seat...

Ours are, but even with the seat all the way down I can't see out the side without ducking. The 182 has a big, fat wing.
 
No, just properly set trim. When you set the trim to the lines, that's takeoff trim. When you're in a high speed cruise, rudder trim will be almost all the way to the left.

Uh Kent. I said it was anemic in climb. You said it was because trim probably wasn't set right. I said it was set right, and the engine is just tired. Now you are saying no the engine wasn't tired and the trim wasn't set for cruise. What?
 
When you're in a high speed cruise, rudder trim will be almost all the way to the left.

And in climb, it will be a good bit right. The fun comes when you're in the pattern and fail to re-adjust the trim on the downwind and approach. You flair, land, and then cob it, and you need a stout right leg if that right trim is still dialed in.
 
Uh Kent. I said it was anemic in climb. You said it was because trim probably wasn't set right. I said it was set right, and the engine is just tired. Now you are saying no the engine wasn't tired and the trim wasn't set for cruise. What?

No, you said it hardly needed any right rudder. With rudder trim properly set, it doesn't.

On takeoff there was hardly any need for right rudder at all.
 
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And in climb, it will be a good bit right. The fun comes when you're in the pattern and fail to re-adjust the trim on the downwind and approach. You flair, land, and then cob it, and you need a stout right leg if that right trim is still dialed in.

See, ours climbs just fine with it centered on the line. It probably doesn't have control forces as heavy as your much-newer one though.
 
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No, you said it hardly needed any right rudder. With rudder trim properly set, it doesn't.

Ah, you had the whole quote, and I thought you were talking about the climb. I didn't pay much attention to the rudder trim. I saw it was, or close to center, and I do know I didn't need any left rudder when straight and level, so I can't imagine it being spun with too much right rudder trim.
 
See, ours climbs just fine with it centered on the line. It's probably not as heavy as your much-newer one though.

Ours has an IO-540 on the nose, so maybe. But, it does need about right trim about 1/2 way from the line to full right. That, or keep bulking up on that right leg.
 
When I first flew my 235, I learned I needed a lot more right rudder, and I needed to think faster as everything in a patter run happened faster. But, of course, I was pre-solo student coming from 160HP Warriors.

On my first pre-buy takeoff with a CFI he almost had to take over as I drifted left. "Remember about opposite rudder to counteract the gyro effect and P-factor?" Umm..yeah, but I didn't need that much before.
 
When the single engine light-jets come out they will be under 12,500lbs right? Won't people still need a type rating to fly those because of the turbine engine?
Yes, they will. BTW, that "turbojet" in the regulation applies to turbofans as well as turbojets, but not turboprops or turboshafts, although I have no idea whether type ratings will be required for an airplane with an unducted fan turbine engine (if anyone ever builds one).
 
Ah, you had the whole quote, and I thought you were talking about the climb. I didn't pay much attention to the rudder trim. I saw it was, or close to center, and I do know I didn't need any left rudder when straight and level, so I can't imagine it being spun with too much right rudder trim.

Yeah, ours doesn't really need any rudder trim until you start to get to cruise speeds, which it doesn't sound like you really did. The rudder forces are pretty light otherwise.
 
When the single engine light-jets come out they will be under 12,500lbs right? Won't people still need a type rating to fly those because of the turbine engine?

Hey and speaking of that does a Cessna Caravan require a type rating?

Yes, Yes, and No.
 
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