GPS upgrade

Chip Sylverne

Chip Sylverne

Final Approach
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Quit with the negative waves, man.
Ok, so the panel currently has a KI 525a HSI, 2 SL 30's, an additional OBS w/gs and a GX55. Want to upgrade to a WAAS GPS, and I'm thinking the best way to go is simply find a used GNS 400w. Have 2 good coms, don't need another. Plus the 400w should be a bit less expensive than a 430, and will fit pretty nicely in the 55's slot, if a bit taller.

Sounds simple. 'Course, it never works out that way, does it.

Any good reason not to make this choice?
 
It will be easier to find a G430W than a G400W, simply because there is more of them. I would also consider the G530W that can be found for not much more money. The G530W has a many features not found on the G430 plus the bigger display. Having the COM and NAV integrated into the GPS unit provides frequency listing and automatic selection a breeze, specially when approaching a Class B airspace.

José
 
GNS480's can be found for ~$5000-ish.

There is one in the club 182 I fly and I really like it over the 430 that was in the DA20 I got my PPL in.
 
The 400W/500W are a bit cheaper to buy than the 430W/530W. I would give some serious consideration to adding a 5x0W instead of a 4x0W. I didn't think it mattered until I flew a plane with a 530W. The bigger display and better moving map is definitely a plus, in my opinion.

Cost wise, I'd look at what you could sell an SL30 for and then see how that plays into a 400W/500W vs 430W/530W. If nothing else, that does make the installation a bit cleaner.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
The 400W/500W are a bit cheaper to buy than the 430W/530W. I would give some serious consideration to adding a 5x0W instead of a 4x0W. I didn't think it mattered until I flew a plane with a 530W. The bigger display and better moving map is definitely a plus, in my opinion.

Cost wise, I'd look at what you could sell an SL30 for and then see how that plays into a 400W/500W vs 430W/530W. If nothing else, that does make the installation a bit cleaner.
Click to expand...

Forgot to mention I have an MX20 also, so I don't really need the bigger display. It also plays well with the Sl's. The gx 55 is 2" tall, and the 400w is 2.66", and that .66" is about all the space I have in the center stack. As far as installation goes, I figured not having to mess with the audio panel at all would simplify things. The harness is already be in place to the annunciator, hsi and MX 20, just new connectors would have to be crimped on to match the pinouts. Prolly also add a GPSS, so that might complicate things a little bit.
 
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Ted DuPuis said:
Cost wise, I'd look at what you could sell an SL30 for and then see how that plays into a 400W/500W vs 430W/530W. If nothing else, that does make the installation a bit cleaner.
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Ted's suggestion is a good one. Rather than two navcoms and a separate GPS navigator your panel could be far more integrated if you replaced the existing GPS and one SL-30 with a GNS480 which incidentally includes the exact same comm circuitry as the SL-30 and plays nicely with one.

I'd also be willing to bet that the cost difference between a GNS480 or a GNS430W and a GNS400 would be less than what you could get for the SL-30.
 
I also think that you'll be happier with a more integrated panel rather than piecemeal, another thought. The 480 is a unit I'd like if for no other reason than airways.

Plus, more screens is always more better. I think even with an MX20 you'd like having the 530 over the 430W. I like putting the terrain page on one GPS, and a bigger screen is more helpful for that.
 
I hear a lot of pro's and con's regarding the 480 such as support from Garmin that didn't really even build the thing to quirks of how it operates. I know a few here that have them and swear by them. They can be had for about $5400 which is less than most used 430's.
 
I also think it would be a big mistake not to replace one of the SL30's and the 55 with either a GNS480 or a GNS430W. Either will be a cleaner interface to the HSI without switching relays and simplify operation.
 
what are the install costs for the GPSs? although the 400 may be a little cheaper than the 430, the install costs may be similar (?). I'd look at the overall costs and see if getting a less expensive GPS is worth it.
 
Ted's point about airways is a good one. I hated programming airway clearances in the Cherokee in the clag. And the routes I fly in the NE I rarely get cleared direct, at least initially.

I read in one of the forums Garmin has committed to supporting the 480 for at least another 8 years. Looking at the physical dimensions, pulling an SL 30 and the 55 will yield just enough space in the stack.

You guy's have got me thinking.

According to the "Bennett index" they have a used gx 55 advertised at $2,300 (not a chance IMHO) and saw an SL 30 advertised for $3,100, which makes no sense to me because they are only a little more than that new. So the value of my stuff should be some percentage of that on the used market. These are really in pristine shape. The 55 and sl 30 would make a nice combo for an inexpensive slide-in upgrade for somebody, if they still have the old Apollo loran in the panel.
 
Yep, I'd say sell those units to buy the new one.

You could also consider a 650. Supports airways (I think?) and will be supported longer than you'll keep the plane. A 480 might be a good option for you, though.
 
tmyers said:
I hear a lot of pro's and con's regarding the 480 such as support from Garmin that didn't really even build the thing to quirks of how it operates. I know a few here that have them and swear by them. They can be had for about $5400 which is less than most used 430's.
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The 480 does have issues and it getting a bit long in the tooth but aside from the two new kids on the block (Garmin GTN650 and Avidyne IFD440) the 480 is one of the best GPS/MapComs around for instrument flying. The user interface is actually quite a bit cleaner than the 430 but since it's based on a completely different architecture and has to cover significantly more functionality it does appear overly complicated to a casual user who's familiar with other Garmin products (e.g. 430, x96, etc).

It does have a few shortcoming and could have morphed into an even better product had Garmin not decided to bury the product and have the development team jury-rig the 430 for WAAS. Garmin claimed that this was justified because the 430 had significantly higher sales than the 480 but that's not terribly surprising given that they dumped several times more funds into advertizing the 430 (and promised 430W) than they spent on promoting the 480. I got my 480 just a few months after Garmin closed the deal on UPSAT and the dealers were already being told to push the 430 and discourage 480 sales so it's not surprising that there was a significant disparity in the sales figures after that.

I'm pretty sure that Garmin saw the 480 as a serious threat to their 430 and in one savvy business move squashed that threat while acquiring a WAAS development team at the same time. To their credit they have supported the 480 from a maintenance perspective as if it was one of their own creations but us owners have always been disappointed that so little effort was put into finishing the design with the intended improvements.
 
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Chip Sylverne said:
Ted's point about airways is a good one. I hated programming airway clearances in the Cherokee in the clag. And the routes I fly in the NE I rarely get cleared direct, at least initially.

I read in one of the forums Garmin has committed to supporting the 480 for at least another 8 years. Looking at the physical dimensions, pulling an SL 30 and the 55 will yield just enough space in the stack.

You guy's have got me thinking.

According to the "Bennett index" they have a used gx 55 advertised at $2,300 (not a chance IMHO) and saw an SL 30 advertised for $3,100, which makes no sense to me because they are only a little more than that new. So the value of my stuff should be some percentage of that on the used market. These are really in pristine shape. The 55 and sl 30 would make a nice combo for an inexpensive slide-in upgrade for somebody, if they still have the old Apollo loran in the panel.
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Of the navcoms available on the used market the SL-30 is considered to be the best unless you fly in Europe (no 8.33 KHz channel spacing capability) and $3000 is pretty much the going price for one with a fresh bench check and associated 8130. I've been contemplating replacing my one KX-155 with a SL-30 but haven't quite convinced myself that it's worth the price delta (my 28v 155 with GS isn't likely to bring more than $1000-1200) plus installation cost but the SL-30 plays so well with a 480 that I may just do it. BTW the MX-20 you have was designed to go hand in hand with a 480, and even though the MX-20 is no longer supported the 480/MX20 is a powerful combination (you may be faced with replacing it with a GMX200 in the not too distant future but that's also designed to work well with a 480).
 
tmyers said:
I hear a lot of pro's and con's regarding the 480 such as support from Garmin that didn't really even build the thing to quirks of how it operates.
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There are no quirks. The only thing that it is DIFFERENT than the horrendous interface on the 430/530. It's interface for IFR use is far superior and straightforward.
 
So in your opinion the 480 is a better unit than the 430. I have heard that from quite a few people including a couple avionics guys.
 
tmyers said:
So in your opinion the 480 is a better unit than the 430. I have heard that from quite a few people including a couple avionics guys.
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Absolutely, hands down, no contest. The only advantages the 430 has over the 480 are a built in E6B calculator and VNAV alerter plus the ability to display traffic from more sources and weather. I use a GPS496 for E6B and VNAV and the the displayed data capabilities don't make much difference if you have a MFD like the MX20, GMX200, Aspen, etc.
 
I'm a huge fan of my 480 and don't hesitate to recommend it over a 430W or 530W, but one other thing it is lacking that the x30Ws have is terrain. I just use my ipad or phone for that.
 
Somewhere along the line I'd never heard of the 480. You guys have me thinking I'd like that unit in 79M.

Just a quick look at the photos of the UI and the manuals, the thing looks "smarter" designed than the usual Garmin interface oddities.

Kinda happy this thread went off that direction. Certainly gives me something to think about.
 
tmyers said:
So in your opinion the 480 is a better unit than the 430. I have heard that from quite a few people including a couple avionics guys.
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The 480 is far better than the 430 (or even the 430W). Frankly, I think it's even better than the 530W. I'd be in a toss up on the 480 versus the newer GTN units.

Of course it is different, it is really the Apollo CNX80. Garmin bought up that operation from UPS primarily to get their WAAS and ADSB expertise but continued to sell the unit for a few years after the acquisition. Similarly the SL30 and SL40 are also products from that acquisition.

I think I probably sold a few 480's by standing in the Garmin booth at AirVenture and demoing the thing in simulator mode (nobody they sent from Garmin knew anything really about the unit).
 
Piloto said:
It will be easier to find a G430W than a G400W, simply because there is more of them. I would also consider the G530W that can be found for not much more money. The G530W has a many features not found on the G430 plus the bigger display. Having the COM and NAV integrated into the GPS unit provides frequency listing and automatic selection a breeze, specially when approaching a Class B airspace.

José
Click to expand...

Bigger screen, but many more features. I can think of only one.
 
kgruber said:
Bigger screen, but many more features. I can think of only one.
Click to expand...

Bigger screen is 1. There are several improvements related to this capability including a more usable map, fewer AUX pages, More data on the same screen in flightplan and other screens such as nearest airport. Weather and terrain make more sense on the larger screen.

Display of EFIS style MAP page as primary Nav page is 2. This is a giant improvement over the GNS430 and most pilots use this page rather than the Map page while in flight.

Display of VOR ID, Distance, and radial of Nav radio is 3.
Dedicated VNAV Button is 4.
 
So I would "X" one sl-30, and one GX55, and install a GNS4 or 5 whatever, and not look back. what audio panel? Actually, a while back I would have been willing to trade a GNS430w, for an sl-30. But that's a dun duck now.
 
The 480 is strongly favored by pilots who have flown jets with FMS/GPS systems as the logic and UI is almost identical and more user-friendly, especially for flight plans and routings with multiple waypoints.
 
bluerooster said:
So I would "X" one sl-30, and one GX55, and install a GNS4 or 5 whatever, and not look back. what audio panel? Actually, a while back I would have been willing to trade a GNS430w, for an sl-30. But that's a dun duck now.
Click to expand...

Oh sure. Tease me.

My audio panel is an Apollo SL 15. I'm happy with it. The only other " weak link" is an old KT 76a, which is a warhorse that'll be retired when it breaks or the FAA says it has to go. Starting to think about the Navworx 600b for the ads- b in/out solution, because it plays well with the MX 20, but not rushing into that hot mess till I have to.

You guy with 480 experience, is it the case that GPSS is integral to the unit, like the Aspen?
 
Chip Sylverne said:
You guy with 480 experience, is it the case that GPSS is integral to the unit, like the Aspen?
Click to expand...

The 480 will output the roll steering information and will (without any button pressing or other nonsense required by the 430/530) fly your autopilot around the entire approach including procedure turns and/or HPILPT's.

It requires that the autopilot be able to take the Roll Steering directly (like a STEC 55X) or have an external GPSS to Heading Bug converter. It does not, like the Aspen, include the converter.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
Ok, so the panel currently has a KI 525a HSI, 2 SL 30's, an additional OBS w/gs and a GX55. Want to upgrade to a WAAS GPS, and I'm thinking the best way to go is simply find a used GNS 400w. Have 2 good coms, don't need another. Plus the 400w should be a bit less expensive than a 430, and will fit pretty nicely in the 55's slot, if a bit taller.

Sounds simple. 'Course, it never works out that way, does it.

Any good reason not to make this choice?
Click to expand...

If buying new yes, but I think there are plenty of used 430W units available cheaply with all the guys upgrading to newer units.

Leave the HSI, add a 480W and keep 1 radio and take the rest out and sell it on ebay or barnstormer to help pay for the labor.

I am always concerned with simplicity and weight.
 
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The 480's and 430's are selling from $6000 to $8000, and the 530's are selling in the $8000 to $9000 range. It is crazy out there. The newer 650's are selling for in the $9500 range which makes it hard to go used but I see it every day. Hard to figure.
 
I have to say that the GTN are better than the 430/530 for sure, but I've only flown behind one once and I was having more fun playing with the synthetic vision on the G600 next to it.
 
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