Good flight sims for aerobatic brush up?

Eddie P

Eddie P

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Sep 18, 2013
Messages
10
Display Name
Display name:
Ed
Hello all, I was wondering if there is a quality "home" flight sim that has a quality flight model of a typical sporty aircraft that would be a good place for procedural brush up int he winter months. You know, just something that works well that may have aerobatic features like smoke (to see past track) and perhaps a review tool that we can judge our performance after a series of maneuvers.

This type of "home brew" training is coming along with legitimate following among CFI's in competition glider flying (they all link in and one can observe anther's performance from a remote location and offer critique and suggestions) Especially with some of the head mount IR view managers (you move your head to look around in the aircraft as you would in the real one vs screen commands in the old days).

I have a top of the line new Mac with massive graphics capability (my wife's work) and a new (unused as of yet) HOTAS stick and throttle system with current rudder input now and easy upgrade to rudder pedals possible if I was interested.. my wife bought me last year for xmas but I just have not come up to speed on a sim yet that gets my attention. I'm into this for a possible training use vs. pure gaming, though I have to admit these home sims have really come far.

Would love to hear if any of you guys are using sims for this type of "rust prevention" aerobatic training? Fly safe, happy landings.
 
No, actually I'm joking. I thought I'd write up a long winded question for fun. :lol:

Actually, there is a lot of precedent for sims in use for training as I'm sure you are aware, ha ha. I would not be learning aerobatics in a sim, I've already done that thanks in real aerobatic aircraft. I am curious about just using it to keep specific routines sharp and well timed when I can't fly.

One little area I never thought would work for sims is RC airplanes. They still don't work that well for actual nuances of real flying. However. I fly competition RC and I use "quality" RC sims all the time to perfect the timing and precision of my routines when I can't fly RC (weather, travel, time available). I tell ya, it works. Really well. The sim does not simulate the actual airplane itself - that requires real time to perfect - But the sim is awesome for sequence sharpening and muscle memory for quick action routines and timing. Makes a big difference in the finer details and confidence during competition.

Of course high fidelity sims are in use all the time for procedural training. I'm a professional pilot and the first day I flew a B-747 for real was after months of simulator and ground sessions, and the jet fit like a glove in terms of timing, muscle memory, etc. Sure, the plane flew a little differently but the sim did what it was designed to do - get the human mind sharpened for all the other things that go along with the learning process in a much safer and cheaper environment.

So yeah, I guess I WAS joking! :lol: Or not. Anyone else heard of anything like this out there on the market? Or is glider competition the only full size sport aviation segment that is using technology like this ?
 
Last edited:
Condor works because soaring is an evolving thinking problem that needs constant solving not a stick and rudder problem. Not an acro guy but I can't see it helping, big part of acro is looking in the right place are you going to mount a monitor on the ceiling?
 
Have you looked at X-Plane? It has the ASK21 as part of the installation, and you can go to the X-Plane forums to find others.
 
ClimbnSink said:
big part of acro is looking in the right place are you going to mount a monitor on the ceiling?
Click to expand...

You are right. We have to look at the right place at the right time and hold positions or move through them gracefully in aerobatics. The way sim guys do this these days (apparently I've only read about this tool) is they have an "IR Tracking" device you clip on to a ball cap and when you turn your head just a smidge left, you slew the sim view tot he left... move a smidge up, and you slew the view upwards. Just like you are in the plane. It takes a few minutes to calibrate your movements and learn to just move your head in small increments but apparently id does work great for a dynamic view control so you can see out all the viewing areas of the cockpit, even in a bubble canopy for example or to see out the left wing view to set your inclination.

Here is a link to a "face tracker" setup, I haven't looked into it too much but it's like the IR trackers just newer.
http://facetracknoir.sourceforge.net/home/default.htm
 
murphey said:
Have you looked at X-Plane? It has the ASK21 as part of the installation, and you can go to the X-Plane forums to find others.
Click to expand...

Thank you Murphey, this is the kind of hint I guess I've been hoping for, with a little further investigation I found this. Check this link out for any who may be interested..

http://acrogimpfsf.wordpress.com/2013/04/05/flight-simulator-x-as-aerobatics-training-tool/

Obviously this is not gonna replace time in the seat nor is it gonna be as fun ;) but it does show some basic promise as something with potential. I've never been much of a "game" flight simmer but I may have found an option for rainy days or when I'm not able to train otherwise. Cheers and fly safe, thanks guys!
 
Last edited:
This all sounds kinda crazy. A big part of flying acro is keeping up your tolerance with g's. Anyone can push negative 8 g's on a stupid game, get in a real airplane and try it. Yes it may be fun to fly acro on a cool simulator but it will no way keep you in check for flying aerobatics.
Ask Rob Holland if he is so good for flying a simulator. LOL! I saw him playing with one at the world finals.
 
Since successful aerobatic operations are heavily dependent on the sensory feedback on the flight controls and peripheral vision, I can't imagine anything short of one of the highly advanced full-vision full flight simulators the military has for its fighter types being useful for "aerobatic brush up".
 
I learned to fly on sims as well as RC aircraft prior to moving into the full size world.

As someone who has flown a lot of acro in the sim, and just a tiny bit in real life, I can tell you the sim is great for learning the sight picture for unusual attitudes, and for judging relative motion, rate of closure to the ground, etc...but the one area it can really hurt is lack of stick feel. Unless you have a control loading yoke (one that can dynamically adjust tension based on the parameters being derived by the sim), the stick feel is going to be way, way off.

Now, if you're ALREADY an aerobatic pilot, then the difference in stick feel might not matter (just as it doesn't matter for me when I'm practicing non-acro flight, because I'm already used to the difference between the sim and real flight), and as such, the sim might be beneficial for going through CERTAIN maneuvers to keep the mind fresh.

Here's the problem, though, most sims are going to be useless for any high alpha maneuvers, too, so there's a limit to what you can practice. Tumbles, spins and snap rolls are generally not going to produce the desired result.
 
Last edited:
I'm already an aerobatic pilot, already a professional pilot. I fly 80 hours a month in high performance jets and about 5 hours a month in light and slow aerobatic airplanes. Just was looking for something to help keep timing right, possibly an avenue for self innovation and something to assist in keeping maneuvers easily visualized for proper sequence during off season.

I agree with many of you guys in that G tolerance, peripheral vision, aircraft handling etc are things that can only be seen and felt in the seat and that is not the point here. I didn't think it was necessary to say it, but just to be clear, no one should try teaching themselves aerobatics in a sim and then go out and try it in an aircraft. It is serious business and life threatening to try this. But, for those who are already proficient and current in aerobatics in a specific aircraft type, perhaps there may be ways to improve and polish one's performance outside the aircraft. I am going to experiment a little to see if the timing and sequence work in a sim can be used to make visualizing a routine or trying a new sequence a bit more fun and worth while.. in a "ground" training environment. If any of you guys have competed in high performance sports or otherwise complex performances, you'll know the power of effective visualization, dry land training, etc. I'm not going to win any converts of people not willing to think outside the box but I do appreciate the links and information offered by those who might have thought about the potential. I guess all I have to risk is a little bit of wasted time if it does not really work. I'm not teaching myself anything here, just trying to find a new way to improve on what I already have to work with. Thanks again!

Happy landings, and fly safe. :D
 
Last edited:
Eddie P said:
But, for those who are already proficient and current in aerobatics in a specific aircraft type, perhaps there may be ways to improve and polish one's performance outside the aircraft. I am going to experiment a little to see if the timing and sequence work in a sim can be used to make visualizing a routine or trying a new sequence a bit more fun and worth while.. in a "ground" training environment.
Click to expand...

In competition acro, visualization of the flight on the ground is key to flying the sequence properly. You may have seen competition pilots, and even airshow pilots "flying" their routine on the ground. This ground visualization is best done immediately before you go fly the sequence. I flew flight sims a good bit as a teenager, and IMO the only real transfer between a flight sim and an actual cockpit is in visualizing certain (and limited) aspects of a flight. There is zero muscle memory transfer. And flight sims only give you perspective along one axis as you fly - unless you have multiple monitors and capable software. Part of the ground dance before flying an actual sequence is turning your head and looking in the right place at the right time. I don't think the flight sim would impart that.

I think you may possibly be able to use a flight sim to help memorize a sequence, but I've never had any trouble doing that by walking through it on the ground before flying. Another nice thing about the ground dance is that your hand can "fly" through the sequence with the same stick inputs as you'd actually be using in the cockpit. A computer joystick moves totally differently, and again provides no help with muscle memory. I've never heard of any competition or airshow guys using a flight sim to help nail their sequences down, but everyone is different and I can't argue against the possibility of some finding it useful.
 
whifferdill said:
In competition acro, visualization of the flight on the ground is key to flying the sequence properly. You may have seen competition pilots, and even airshow pilots "flying" their routine on the ground. This ground visualization is best done immediately before you go fly the sequence.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. In every competitive or high performance sport or activity I've ever been involved with I've used visualization to great effect. I doubt there is an elite athlete, fighter pilot or other performer out there who is truly great at their "thing" that does not use visualization.

We have a long way to go in home based simulation technology before it can be "plug and play" training validity in aerobatics for the masses. But there are hardware add-ons right now as previously linked and discussed that allow complete head movement initiated views to all aspects of the airplane that you can do in the real aircraft (left right, up, down, backwards, and small movements in between with just small neck movements and the view scrolls proportionally on the single screen ahead). The reality is in the details though. I doubt this can be used for anything close to real training at this point. Probably more of a visualization "assist" if anything or possibly simply a waste of time. I'll play a little with it and if the results are worth anything I'll report back.
 
Eddie P said:
Absolutely. In every competitive or high performance sport or activity I've ever been involved with I've used visualization to great effect. I doubt there is an elite athlete, fighter pilot or other performer out there who is truly great at their "thing" that does not use visualization.

We have a long way to go in home based simulation technology before it can be "plug and play" training validity in aerobatics for the masses. But there are hardware add-ons right now as previously linked and discussed that allow complete head movement initiated views to all aspects of the airplane that you can do in the real aircraft (left right, up, down, backwards, and small movements in between with just small neck movements and the view scrolls proportionally on the single screen ahead). The reality is in the details though. I doubt this can be used for anything close to real training at this point. Probably more of a visualization "assist" if anything or possibly simply a waste of time. I'll play a little with it and if the results are worth anything I'll report back.
Click to expand...

I can't help you with any thoughts on an acro sim, but my sim setup (with TrackIR-5) is so much better with three monitors as opposed to one. I use the Matrox TH2GO to connect my monitors.

The FOV is incredible in X-Plane and DCS A-10C, as well as FSX (which I rarely use).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top