GFC700 v. KAP 140?

[Areeda]

I have a 2005 T182T with kap 140 and love it. I have flown both. No way the diff. is worth 70k. However, what about the other options esp. WAAS? Do they both have WAAS that is a 18k upgrade on g1000. SVT install just 8k.

I agree the autopilot alone is not worth 70K and I believe you can add a new one to a G1000 for about $30K.

Sorry but a plane can stall at any airspeed so last statement not true. The GFC 700 can stall a airplane.

I think you're either nitpicking on the word can or don't understand the conditions an autopilot will induce a stall. Let's assume the latter.

If you want to induce a stall at a reasonable cruise climb speed you have to either induce a very significant G-load or change pitch attitude faster than inertia allows the plane to follow. No autopilot I know of will do either even in common failure modes.

Joe

 

[TMetzinger]

True, a plane can stall at any airspeed - It's the angle of attack that causes a stall.

Now, within the context of the GFC 700 - How are you going to get it to exceed the critical angle of attack in FLC mode?

The GFC 700 can stall an airplane the same way a KAP 140 can stall an airplane - in Vertical Speed mode when the climb rate is set to something more than the plane can get at Vy in the conditions present. (Though the G1000 could theoretically just tell the autopilot not to drop below Vy or Vx, dunno if they thought of that.)

However, the GFC 700 in FLC mode isn't going to stall you.

Actually the GFC700 has envelope protection, IIRC, and won't stall in VS mode.

 

[skidoo]

I have a 2004 T182T with KAP-140. I am not yet IFR rated, and I learned in the 1970's before I knew what an autopilot was. The KAP-140 is a great feature relative to none. When it is on, I always pay attention to what is going on. It eases the workload, but I am still in charge. A pilot should be paying attention regardless of which AP is being used.

Would I like the 700? Sure! But, for my use at this point, it is not worth $70K. Maybe in a few years when the cost differential is less, I could trade up if I find that I need more performance. But, right now, it is everything I need.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

I agree the autopilot alone is not worth 70K and I believe you can add a new one to a G1000 for about $30K.

Joe

Back in March, I asked the avionics guy (Rusty) at Van Bortel, one of the leading Cessna dealers, this very question. Here's my question and his reply:

Is it possible to swap out the KAP140 and the turn coordinator behind the panel that drives it with the GFC700?

If so, what is the cost and downtime?

They are totally different and there is no approval to install the 700 in the Cessna other than during original factory production. I will be back in the country tomorrow. If you wish more, give me a call then at 800 759 4295.
Thanks
Rusty

 

[Areeda]

Back in March, I asked the avionics guy (Rusty) at Van Bortel, one of the leading Cessna dealers, this very question. Here's my question and his reply:

Interesting Troy,

Several of the people on the Cirrus (COPA) site have upgraded their S-tec 55 to a GFC-700. I'll have to check the exact price, my co-owners have been discussing it.

Did the plane in question have a G1000 or steam?

Joe

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Actually the GFC700 has envelope protection, IIRC, and won't stall in VS mode.

I kinda figured it wouldn't, but there was no such mention in the manual. It'd be fun to test though.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Interesting Troy,

Several of the people on the Cirrus (COPA) site have upgraded their S-tec 55 to a GFC-700. I'll have to check the exact price, my co-owners have been discussing it.

Did the plane in question have a G1000 or steam?

Joe

The plane in question was a late model G1000 T182T with the KAP140 AP. You may well be able to do this in a Cirrus where it's not approved in a Cessna.

 

[Gsim Aviation]

I have a 2005 T182T with kap 140 and love it. I have flown both. No way the diff. is worth 70k. However, what about the other options esp. WAAS? Do they both have WAAS that is a 18k upgrade on g1000. SVT install just 8k.

SVT is about $9k and you have to buy 2 -43 GDU bottom cards they cost over $1000.00 for both. The AP does so much more and better integration and couples to VNAV than the KAP140. that is not all you get, you also get WAAS and that is more than $17k plus install.
To me the auto pilot and WAAS was well worth the cost of $70k and I have had both. I bought my 2004 182T in 2007 just as the GFC was coming out and I did not want to pay the extra $100K at the time so I bought the 2004 but after I caught wind that the WAAS will not couple to the KAP140 I sold it before the word went out of the cost of the WAAS upgrade.
The good thing about the KAP140 is it will work with out the G1000 up and running.
The good thing about he GFC is it is attitude based, so in turbulence and up and down draft it flies smother. No chasing the VS or holding altitude, you can fly it in the pitch or FLC (airspeed hold) The KAP does not have that.

 

[Gsim Aviation]

The plane in question was a late model G1000 T182T with the KAP140 AP. You may well be able to do this in a Cirrus where it's not approved in a Cessna.

No, there is no upgrade for the Cirrus to to have the GFC700 only if you have the Avidyne then you can go to the new attitude based AP and release 9. The Diamond has the G1000 with the 55x but no upgrade to the GFC. The Cirrus does not have a G1000 with a 55x it would be the Avidyne. And the Perspective has the GFC700
The new SW for the G1000 in the Cessna's will be cool. It will have the PathWays and Data Logging with the upper slot in the MFD, many other new things like flight plan upload and download with a SD card.
It will be 563.20 and due out this or next month. You can check out what all it does by downloading the pilots guide V SW 563.18 at Garmin.
There are no GFC700 AP upgrades but the KinAir and some Citations.
It would be well over $130k because you would have to change out both GIA's DGU, and add servos.

 

[Gsim Aviation]

I kinda figured it wouldn't, but there was no such mention in the manual. It'd be fun to test though.

Yes the GFC will not let the plane fly too slow in the VS mode. But you could still stall it in other ways, with the AP on.
The new ESP is coming soon from Garmin, that does not let the plane fly out of the envelope even with the AP off.

 

[dennyleeb]

It baffles me that somebody would think the GFC700 will not let a plane stall. Very dangerous thought process.

Back to original question.
lets say 25k diff in the year model
15k for gfc 700
18k WAAS

that equals 58k, try to talk the guy down on the 08 12k then 100% justified

 

[TMetzinger]

Yes the GFC will not let the plane fly too slow in the VS mode. But you could still stall it in other ways, with the AP on.
The new ESP is coming soon from Garmin, that does not let the plane fly out of the envelope even with the AP off.

Hmm - better have a way to disable it so that students can do stalls and such. I've never been a fan of automation keeping me from doing something it thinks is stupid.

 

[Gsim Aviation]

"Back to original question.
lets say 25k diff in the year model
15k for gfc 700
18k WAAS"

The WAAS is going to be about $21K after install and still will not couple.
The auto pilot is only worth what the buyer wants so for me it was easy $40k for others it could be $10
If the plane is a 04 or 05 you will get AMsafe seat belts front and rear with 2006 and on.
The ESP can be turned off for training

"It baffles me that somebody would think the GFC700 will not let a plane stall. Very dangerous thought process."

I do not know where it says the AP will not let the plane stall, nobody should think that all, the AP will do, is not let the plane fly slow or to fast it will just shut off, unlike the KAP.

 

[Gsim Aviation]

"Actually the GFC700 has envelope protection, IIRC, and won't stall in VS mode. "

Yes you have that correct,
The KAP will pull the plane up to a stall by pulling up so much it lowers the airspeed.
The GFC will not let the plane fly below 70kts but that is not to say you can not stall it, in either VS or FLC.

When I fly a attitude based AP I do not use VS or the FLC, I use the PITCH mode that keeps the plane a steady pitch unlike the KAP can not do that.
When I fly the KAP140 I have to use the VS to fly up or down and that will make the plane fly at differant pitch angles if in rough air or up and down drafts, the GFC700 I use the PITCH for going up and down, that makes for a much smoother flight especially in rough air, always a set pitch of what ever I set it to.
I think the KAP140 is the best rate based AP out there.

 

[dennyleeb]

"Back to original question.
lets say 25k diff in the year model
15k for gfc 700
18k WAAS"

The WAAS is going to be about $21K after install and still will not couple.
The auto pilot is only worth what the buyer wants so for me it was easy $40k for others it could be $10
If the plane is a 04 or 05 you will get AMsafe seat belts front and rear with 2006 and on.
The ESP can be turned off for training

"It baffles me that somebody would think the GFC700 will not let a plane stall. Very dangerous thought process."

I do not know where it says the AP will not let the plane stall, nobody should think that all, the AP will do, is not let the plane fly slow or to fast it will just shut off, unlike the KAP.

I have 05 T182T with amsafe front and rear. The 18k for WAAS is labor included. Just priced it last month.

 

[Gsim Aviation]

For 18K they are installing it for free, They need to check again, SB-07-34-07 says the price is $18,295.00 plus install the rebate from Garmin has passed no longer any good, in 05 the rear Amsafe rear belts were a option, not standard like the 06 and 07 and on. I would have them do it for $18k installed. Garmin had a $3400 rebate going but it has expired.
That price is dealer price, we do not get any dealer pricing for the Kit, the money would be made on the install labor price. It will only take about 7 hours to install the Mod but Cessna gives a price of 11 hours for install.

 

[Gsim Aviation]

4 reasons.

1. larger resale audience
2. slight speed increase
3. slight performance improvement on triple h days
4. I have to cross the Appalachians a few times a year and it's sometimes much safer to do so at 17 as opposed to 11.

In my haste, I forgot to mention the presence of WAAS in the newer plane.

Thanks again for the thoughtful input.

You made a good choice.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Yes the GFC will not let the plane fly too slow in the VS mode. But you could still stall it in other ways, with the AP on.

Okay, HOW? You keep repeating that the GFC700 can stall the airplane, but fail to explain how that is. And we're talking an inadvertent stall here, I would bet most autopilots could be stalled in altitude hold mode if you pulled the power, but you're not going to do that in normal flight.

 

[TMetzinger]

It baffles me that somebody would think the GFC700 will not let a plane stall. Very dangerous thought process.

Back to original question.
lets say 25k diff in the year model
15k for gfc 700
18k WAAS

that equals 58k, try to talk the guy down on the 08 12k then 100% justified

It baffles me that you think that the things that have been said here means we think the GFC700 will not let a plane stall. The GFC700 incorporates a lot better protection against autopilot-induced stalls than earlier autopilots, but of course there are still opportunities for the airplane to stall.

 

[dennyleeb]

It baffles me that you think that the things that have been said here means we think the GFC700 will not let a plane stall. The GFC700 incorporates a lot better protection against autopilot-induced stalls than earlier autopilots, but of course there are still opportunities for the airplane to stall.

Maybe it was this line written by you esp. the "won't" part
"Actually the GFC700 has envelope protection, IIRC, and won't stall in VS mode."

 

[TMetzinger]

Maybe it was this line written by you esp. the "won't" part
"Actually the GFC700 has envelope protection, IIRC, and won't stall in VS mode."

Let me rephrase and see if you like this better.

The GFC700, unlike some earlier autopilots, will not maintain the VS when the airspeed drops into the stall region, and will instead reduce the rate of climb (to zero if need be) in order to avoid a stall.

or

Actually the GFC700 has envelope protection, IIRC, and won't induce a stall in VS mode. It will reduce the VS to maintain an airspeed above stall speed.

Sorry if I gave the impression that one could "set and forget" the autopilot. That's not true of any autopilot (or copilot either, for that matter). The PIC has to remain engaged with the aircraft.

 

[Gsim Aviation]

Okay, HOW? You keep repeating that the GFC700 can stall the airplane, but fail to explain how that is. And we're talking an inadvertent stall here, I would bet most autopilots could be stalled in altitude hold mode if you pulled the power, but you're not going to do that in normal flight.

Unlike the KAP 140 the GFC will disconect below 70kts, the KAP will just let the plane stall, The GFC knows the airspeed of the plane unlike the KAP140 does not know what airspeed you are at.
That is just one the differance between the two AP, It works the way Tim says also but below 70 kts with no power it will shut off.
Now the new ESP will nose the plane over if need be even with the AP off.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Unlike the KAP 140 the GFC will disconect below 70kts, the KAP will just let the plane stall, The GFC knows the airspeed of the plane unlike the KAP140 does not know what airspeed you are at.

Okay, so the autopilot disconnects (presumably with a warning tone/voice annunciation?) and the airplane returns to the airspeed it's currently trimmed for. Where's the stall, exactly? And how did the autopilot cause it?

Part of it is that the GFC700 is a more sophisticated autopilot, and part of it is that, as you point out, the KAP140 does not have as much information available to it as the GFC700 does, in this case the airspeed.

Given the title of the thread, though, I'd still MUCH prefer the GFC700. (I hope the new plane I'm picking up next week doesn't hear me! )

 

[Gsim Aviation]

In the end KAP or GFC, it boils down to what you like in a plane, it could be speed, it could be comfort, it could be avionics, and it could be style. So to some the KAP and $70 in their pocket sounds good and to others the GFC is what makes them happy.

 

[n20junkie]

I have used both. The KAP140 is a POS compared to the GFC 700 at least when compared to each other in a G1000 aircraft. The KAP has little to no integration and it's not user friendly at all. I have 400 single pilot hours in a Columbia (or Corvallis, cessna did make it) and a few dozen single pilot in a Phenom. The GFC has worked great, and is a very user friendly autopilot. The KAP is about 20 years out of date.

 

[dennyleeb]

I have used both. The KAP140 is a POS compared to the GFC 700 at least when compared to each other in a G1000 aircraft. The KAP has little to no integration and it's not user friendly at all. I have 400 single pilot hours in a Columbia (or Corvallis, cessna did make it) and a few dozen single pilot in a Phenom. The GFC has worked great, and is a very user friendly autopilot. The KAP is about 20 years out of date.

LOL, maybe worst post all time, what were you on a simulator
you are crazy, 700 is better but 140 is not a pos,

 

[Gsim Aviation]

LOL, maybe worst post all time, what were you on a simulator
you are crazy, 700 is better but 140 is not a pos,

I would not say that was a bad post, the KAP140 is the best Rate based AP IMO but is not a integrated AP like the GFC. I have had the ,KAP140 in my 172 and then the 182, it does take some work to use but so does the GFC just not as much. The KAP140 was made for the restart Cessna's and a few other OEM's for a lower cost than the KFC225 which is a very good attitude based AP at the time.
How can the KAP be out of date by 20 years?? Stec does not make a attitude AP for most planes and it is very hard to do a stand alone AP that would be integrated at ra reasonable cost.

 

[dmspilot]

Call me confused, but I don't know why a GFC700 is worth $70,000 more than a KAP-140 in order to conduct 1 hour VFR burger runs, especially when such flying doesn't really need an autopilot at all. I think some pilots are so enamored by technology that it precludes rational thought and logic. Compared to what is available in the aftermarket, the KAP-140 is quite nice.

 

[flyersfan31]

LOL, maybe worst post all time, what were you on a simulator
you are crazy, 700 is better but 140 is not a pos,

I agree with him. Absolutely flat out no comparison. Moreover, the 140 had more problems, in my experience, than the STEC30, 55X, and GFC700 combined in my whopping (!) 800hrs. Keep in mind, I'm no fan of the STECs either. GFC700 is head and shoulders above the competition.

IMHO, YMMV.

 

[dennyleeb]

I agree with him. Absolutely flat out no comparison. Moreover, the 140 had more problems, in my experience, than the STEC30, 55X, and GFC700 combined in my whopping (!) 800hrs. Keep in mind, I'm no fan of the STECs either. GFC700 is head and shoulders above the competition.

IMHO, YMMV.

what problems did you have?

 

[dennyleeb]

I would not say that was a bad post, the KAP140 is the best Rate based AP IMO but is not a integrated AP like the GFC. I have had the ,KAP140 in my 172 and then the 182, it does take some work to use but so does the GFC just not as much. The KAP140 was made for the restart Cessna's and a few other OEM's for a lower cost than the KFC225 which is a very good attitude based AP at the time.
How can the KAP be out of date by 20 years?? Stec does not make a attitude AP for most planes and it is very hard to do a stand alone AP that would be integrated at ra reasonable cost.

English please. So you think it is a pos or not? Is it 20yrs out of date or not?

 

[Gsim Aviation]

"English please. So you think it is a pos or not? Is it 20yrs out of date or not?"

No the KAP is not 20 years out of date. for the money paid by the OEM's, and being a rate based AP, that is about all you can get.
To have airspeed hold and pitch control you need a rate based AP, and it takes more money to make them. The -7904 KAP140 has a very good DC Role Steering that only works with the KLN94, but it does work in the NAV mode unlike the heading adapters that use the heading mode.

 

[Gsim Aviation]

Almost all problems with the KAP140 was fixed for no charge if you did the service bulletins in the time they gave you. Most owners missed the SB's and then had to pay.
If all the SB's were done the KAP worked flawless for me.

To some people the auto pilot is very important, it would be worth $10 to some and $100K to others but if the plane has the GFC700 and WAAS there is a big difference in price and with it they sell quick.

 

[Gsim Aviation]

Call me confused, but I don't know why a GFC700 is worth $70,000 more than a KAP-140 in order to conduct 1 hour VFR burger runs, especially when such flying doesn't really need an autopilot at all. I think some pilots are so enamored by technology that it precludes rational thought and logic. Compared to what is available in the aftermarket, the KAP-140 is quite nice.

Yes you could, but you could just drive to get the burger and keep the money, why buy the plane to start with?
Nobody needs a GPS, auto pilot, or nice paint, but some do and some like the the WAAS and GFC700 for $70k more because that's what they want and like to spend there money on. For me I have no kids and never had any interest in them but some do and spend large amount of money on them. You do not need kids either, but people like them and love having them, and some like having the GFC700, if you can afford them nothing wrong with that.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Call me confused, but I don't know why a GFC700 is worth $70,000 more than a KAP-140 in order to conduct 1 hour VFR burger runs, especially when such flying doesn't really need an autopilot at all.

True - But the turbo is pretty worthless for your average $100 burger run too. (Which is to say, I stopped talking about $100 burger runs in this thread a while back.)

Compared to what is available in the aftermarket, the KAP-140 is quite nice.

I dunno, I really like my S-TEC and I'd take it over a KAP 140 for the same money. I'd take the GFC700 over either. I guess what gets me is that it feels like the KAP 140 gets in the way, the S-TEC stays in the background and only does what I ask it, and the GFC doesn't even need you to ask.

 

[dmspilot]

On 1-hour VFR burger runs, the more advanced autopilot is going to offer almost zero additional utility. Is an "almost zero" benefit worth $70,000? Clearly, the answer is no.

Of course, buying something just because you want or like it is a fine reason. But if someone is going to base their decision on subjective, emotional reasons, why ask for objective advice in the first place?

flyingcheesehead/iPulledALance--I agree, but he didn't ask for advice on whether to get a turbo or not. He asked about the autopilot. As far as the STEC, I suppose that depends on the model and installation, so touche.

 

[Gsim Aviation]

Well I guess it was worth $70,000 because original poster went for the GFC700 over the KAP140, I also did the same thing. I do know by looking at the prices for the non WAAS GFC aircraft, they are going for about $70k to $100k. less, and take longer to sell.