Getting release times changed

[TangoWhiskey]

So there I was, sitting up at Meacham airport, watching all these jets and King Airs take off for far-flung destinations for spring break, and multiple 'clearance' calls were met with "due to flow control issues of all the aircraft going into [Cancun/Aspen/Cozumel/Bahamas] your expected clearance time has been modified to xx:yy" (3 or 4 hours hence).

What followed would be an "unacceptable, we'll call our flight planning folks". A few minutes later, aircraft would call clearance back and say "Universal Flight Service worked their magic again, you should see a modified / approved clearance for us."

Sure enough, they'd get released and go.

What "magic" do these 3rd party dispatchers have? What strings do they pull to get a flight moved up?

 

[tonycondon]

probably playing the IFR reservation system.

 

[ScottM]

Hmm Mexico i$ involved. I wonder what type of magic they would be u$ing? hmmm.

 

[RotorAndWing]

So there I was, sitting up at Meacham airport, watching all these jets and King Airs take off for far-flung destinations for spring break, and multiple 'clearance' calls were met with "due to flow control issues of all the aircraft going into [Cancun/Aspen/Cozumel/Bahamas] your expected clearance time has been modified to xx:yy" (3 or 4 hours hence).

What followed would be an "unacceptable, we'll call our flight planning folks". A few minutes later, aircraft would call clearance back and say "Universal Flight Service worked their magic again, you should see a modified / approved clearance for us."

Sure enough, they'd get released and go.

What "magic" do these 3rd party dispatchers have? What strings do they pull to get a flight moved up?

The dispatchers can call ATC directly. More than likely what they were doing is modifying the route to avoid the flow control.

 

[gismo]

The dispatchers can call ATC directly. More than likely what they were doing is modifying the route to avoid the flow control.

Some folks have been known to spoof the system by filing their true destination as their alternate along with a dummy destination they never intend to land at.

 

[Teller1900]

The dispatchers can call ATC directly. More than likely what they were doing is modifying the route to avoid the flow control.

That's what our dispatchers do a lot. A couple of our dispatchers have friends at the command center who can suggest better rousting or work out alternate arrivals for us to sneak out ahead of the crowd.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

Dispatchers at most airlines can access to the FAA TCA hotline pages and/or call the command center (ATCSCC) to get EDCT's moved up. Smaller operators (like the company I work for) don't exactly have those connections. One day...

 

[SkyHog]

Some folks have been known to spoof the system by filing their true destination as their alternate along with a dummy destination they never intend to land at.

I love that idea. Does it work?

 

[Everskyward]

So there I was, sitting up at Meacham airport, watching all these jets and King Airs take off for far-flung destinations for spring break

You were at Meacham this morning? So was I.

We weren't going to Mexico like many were, we were headed for ski country. Do you want to see our route.

 

[ScottM]

You were at Meacham this morning? So was I.

We weren't going to Mexico like many were, we were headed for ski country. Do you want to see our route.

Wow Mari, you guys really should learn how to hold a heading!!!






How much of that was for spacing and/or route issues??

 

[Everskyward]

How much of that was for spacing and/or route issues??

All of it.

Here is what I filed. I never would've guessed we'd see both Wichita and Wyoming on the way to Eagle.

 

[ScottM]

All of it.

Here is what I filed. I never would've guessed we'd see both Wichita and Wyoming on the way to Eagle.

Well it was certainly rude of ATC to make you guys miss your naps!!

Was it mostly traffic going into your destination? I can see a lot of the vectors once they started to turn you SW being related by that. But all that stuff soon after departure....what's the deal with that?

 

[Everskyward]

Was it mostly traffic going into your destination?

Not necessarily Eagle, but Aspen and other mountain airports too.

I can see a lot of the vectors once they started to turn you SW being related by that. But all that stuff soon after departure....what's the deal with that?

On busy days they route the traffic going from Texas to the mountain airports over Oklahoma City and Wichita. They say it's for spacing.

 

[Teller1900]

I love that idea. Does it work?

In my experience, no. If delays are bad enough for them to be running EDCT times in the first place, it usually just ****es them off and results in lots of airborne holding.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I love that idea. Does it work?

Doug Kaye spoke about a trick he called the "Salinas Subterfuge" on Pilotcast #15, so it certainly can work.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

In my experience, no. If delays are bad enough for them to be running EDCT times in the first place, it usually just ****es them off and results in lots of airborne holding.

Others fool the system by departing VFR and then picking up an IFR from an airport close to the departure airport (MVY if departing ACK) that isn't included in the GDP (ground delay program) or AFP (airspace flow program). It works on occasion if you are able to depart VFR.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

You were at Meacham this morning? So was I.

We weren't going to Mexico like many were, we were headed for ski country. Do you want to see our route.

Were you the one that got a route change while taxing out?

 

[TangoWhiskey]

In my experience, no. If delays are bad enough for them to be running EDCT times in the first place, it usually just ****es them off and results in lots of airborne holding.

Ah! EDCT. That's the "edict" time that I heard the controller say, and the pilot delayed before saying "sorry, we were trying to figure out what an "edict" time was."

Turns out you can lookup your flight plan to see if an EDCT (Expected Departure Clearance Time) will be issued:

http://www.fly.faa.gov/edct

 

[Everskyward]

Were you the one that got a route change while taxing out?

Nah, we knew about the lousy route from when we first picked up our clearance... that is except for the detour to Laramie, WY.

 

[Teller1900]

Others fool the system by departing VFR and then picking up an IFR from an airport close to the departure airport (MVY if departing ACK) that isn't included in the GDP (ground delay program) or AFP (airspace flow program). It works on occasion if you are able to depart VFR.

That's what we did quite a bit in the Beech! Our OpSpecs allowed us to depart VFR so long as dispatch and the CA deem it safe and we had our IFR clearance within 50nm of the airport, so we'd cheat LGA sometimes, but BOS more often. We departed LGA VFR a couple times when things were really backed up. The controllers seemed to get a kick out of it; everyone we passed while back-taxiing full length...not so much.

Ah! EDCT. That's the "edict" time that I heard the controller say, and the pilot delayed before saying "sorry, we were trying to figure out what an "edict" time was."

Turns out you can lookup your flight plan to see if an EDCT (Expected Departure Clearance Time) will be issued:

http://www.fly.faa.gov/edct

Yes indeed. First time I ever heard it, I was just as confused. I wrote it down on the paper as "edict time," then took it in to the captain who started laughing at me.

It seems like every week they have a new acronym for a new type of delay. Update times, wheels-in-the-well times, center-release times, DSP, GDP, EDCT, APREQ (sp?), ground stops...the list goes on and on and on and we never seem to know which we're under.

If you want a good laugh on the FAA's EDCT page, look at afternoon departures to EWR. A couple weeks ago we had a proposed time of 2020Z. When I looked on the site I thought we were getting out easy until I realized that our EDCT was 0259Z, which means it's listed with tomorrow's date.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

It seems like every week they have a new acronym for a new type of delay. Update times, wheels-in-the-well times, center-release times, DSP, GDP, EDCT, APREQ (sp?), ground stops...the list goes on and on and on and we never seem to know which we're under.

If you want a good laugh on the FAA's EDCT page, look at afternoon departures to EWR. A couple weeks ago we had a proposed time of 2020Z. When I looked on the site I thought we were getting out easy until I realized that our EDCT was 0259Z, which means it's listed with tomorrow's date.

Those are all (well mostly) different phrases. Wheels up and EDCT's are the same and are issued during a GDP. DSP and center released times are pretty much the same things and can be used without an official GDP, FCA, etc as internal flow control.

APREQ's are approval requests and is the phrase controllers use when you make a request and they make a land line call to see if they can approve it, essentially when you want to alter from a published procedure.

Always fun to read up on those!

 

[SCCutler]

Filing elsewhere and hoping to amend or "divert" later sounds great, but I have heard more than a couple of times when folks trying to secure IFR in to a place which was "booked-up" were flat poured out.

There was this time I was headed into Hobby (Houston), very busy day, and this one King Air must have tried about five times to canoodle his way into a clearance to HOU; on several, he was told "...unable HObby, try Sugar Land," which was not (apparently) what he wanted to hear. Finally, when he called up yet again, he was answered with, "...King Air WHO?" As soon as he said "King Air one two tree, I'd like to amend Sugar Land," they heard him just fine. Glad I picked up my clearance into HOU intime, as that was where my ride was meeting me!

 

[Ted]

So Mari, how much extra time did your... umm... "interesting" clearance cost you vs. what you'd filed?

Interesting to read up on the tricks here. I've not had to deal with delayed clearances, but then again I don't generally fly into Bravo airports. I fly through PIT Bravo a lot (usually directly over the airport), but that doesn't cause any issues for ATC, so that's never caused me any problems.

 

[Everskyward]

So Mari, how much extra time did your... umm... "interesting" clearance cost you vs. what you'd filed?

My planned time was 1:58 and we came in at 2:22.

 

[Ted]

My planned time was 1:58 and we came in at 2:22.

Hmm... that flight time would get me... not nearly as far.

Still, though, that's close to 25% longer than planned.