Getting IFR Rating in Experimental Aircraft?

Naruto

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Naruto
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I am really into homebuilt planes and I'm currently a PPL. I want my instrument rating but I really want my own plane first. I have ordered a Vans RV 7A tail kit and plan to build a IFR panel. I anticipate building for a few years as I am in no rush. Can I use my RV7A to train for my IFR ticket when its done as long as it meets IFR standards? I figure all my money will go to my dream plane and when its done I'll have a plane to go long distances and don't have to spend money on renting a plane and instructor for the IFR training. Will instructors teach you in your own experimental?[/FONT]
 
Talk to Chris Jones (CJones) He just got his Instrument Rating in his RV-7A. I signed him off for it. Some instructors may shy away from it. Not all.
 
Ok, it perfectly legal training in a RV as long as there is a instructor willing to train you and sign of on you. Do you think a DE would have any issue in doing a checkride in one?
 
I worried about this. We found one in Southeast Iowa that would. There are several DEs out there that are also into Experimentals. The FAA gives them the option to do the checkride only if they want. Like Chris and I determined, with a fast airplane that he owned, traveling for to a DE that would give him a checkride in his plane was perfectly acceptable.
 
Thanks for the info. I was debating to continue building or spend money on a instrument rating as I wanted to save money by using my own experimental for the IFR training. Now I can plan to continue building a get my rating later.
 
build away, then call me when you get it finished :)

7A is a nice flying machine. You should PM chris though. their build website is www.oncloud7.com
 
WOOHOO!! I fellow RV-7A'er! Welcome to the club. You say that you aren't in a rush to get the bird built -- just wait till you get the tail done and you realize "Whoa.. This is a real airplane!" THEN you'll be pounding rivets in your sleep! :)

As far as IR in the RV -- it is definitely doable. And as you have already figured out, less expensive than renting a plane for training. It is much more sensitive to roll and pitch than most trainers (my DE compared it to the P-39 that he flew), but that also makes you a better IR pilot (I think so anyway). The trick will be finding a CFII that is willing and capable to train in the RV. As there get to be more and more RV's out flying, there are getting to be more and more CFII's that are willing to train in them. Same goes for DE's. If you haven't done so, check out www.vansairforce.net . They have a web forum there that is FULL of people willing and able to share their... uhhh... "opinions" on everything.

But to answer your original question -- it is definitely legal to fly IFR in an experimental. To give you a heads-up for things coming down the chute at you - when planning out your panel, make sure you have two nav's and two com's. We are currently running a single Garmin 430 as our sole Nav and Com. As I learned during training it makes for a HANDFUL when trying to get weather ahead, cross check items, etc. Not to mention the simple pleasure of having redundancy in systems.

Good luck and feel free to give me a holler if you have any questions!!

-Chris
 
I appreciate the advice Chris. I can't wait until my plans, tools and tail kit get here and I'm sure your right about wanting to go at it faster when the tail is done. Can you tell me which tool set you started with as I had a hard time deciding between the Avery and Isham tools? I went with the Isham because it came with a pneumatic squeezer and DRDT-2 dimpler. Hope I made the right choice. Also what RV kit did you get next, the wings or fuselage after you finished the tail?
 
I appreciate the advice Chris. I can't wait until my plans, tools and tail kit get here and I'm sure your right about wanting to go at it faster when the tail is done. Can you tell me which tool set you started with as I had a hard time deciding between the Avery and Isham tools? I went with the Isham because it came with a pneumatic squeezer and DRDT-2 dimpler. Hope I made the right choice. Also what RV kit did you get next, the wings or fuselage after you finished the tail?

We didn't buy any set 'kit' of tools. We already had tons of tools left over from farming days, so we just needed to get the rivet squeezing equipment -- for that, I think dad actually bought a pneumatic squeezer off of EBay and a dimpler from Cleveland Tools (maybe). At that time, we both worked with a guy that had built other planes in the past and he traded us a boatload of clecoes for a trip to Oshkosh. We built our own jigs from plans found online. Even though we had the squeezer, we still had to get creative to cut steel stock for bucking bars to be able to get to some of those hard-to-reach areas.

We followed the tail feathers with the wings, but actually had to wait about 2 months b/c they were back-ordered.

You can go to http://www.oncloud7.com/rv7.htm for a site we threw together while building. It's not pretty, but it has a few pics from the whole process.

-Chris
 
Thanks again Chris, I bookmarked your site and it looks very informational to me. Thanks again.
 
Thanks again Chris, I bookmarked your site and it looks very informational to me. Thanks again.

Cool...

Yeah.. Let me know if you have any questions/comments/complaints about the process or the plane in general. I don't know all the answers, but I can usually help you get pointed in the right direction!

-Chris
 
The keys here are that it's perfectly legal to receive training in your own Experimental aircraft, including IR if your plane has then necessary equipment and is properly certified for IFR ops (including no "VFR only" restriction in the operating limitations). What you can't do is provide training to others in your Experimental aircraft (i.e., CFI owning Experimental and giving training to others in it).

Also, there will always be issues getting CFI's and/or DPE's willing to get into an Experimental aircraft built by somebody they don't know, so ask around to be sure you can get both instructor and examiner before you start down this path.
 
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I am really into homebuilt planes and I'm currently a PPL. I want my instrument rating but I really want my own plane first. I have ordered a Vans RV 7A tail kit and plan to build a IFR panel. I anticipate building for a few years as I am in no rush. Can I use my RV7A to train for my IFR ticket when its done as long as it meets IFR standards? I figure all my money will go to my dream plane and when its done I'll have a plane to go long distances and don't have to spend money on renting a plane and instructor for the IFR training. Will instructors teach you in your own experimental?[/FONT]

From a fellow RV builder and owner (RV8), the answer is absolutely.

As others have said, you may find some weak-kneed, small-bladder instructors who are afraid to ride in an experiemental. Stay away from them. You wouldn't learn nearly as much anyhow.

The key here is that you're building a 7. If I had to do it over again and without a building partner/owner (I'm half-owner of this RV), and wanted a two-seater, I'd build the 7 myself. (If I wanted a four-seat, I'd build the RV10 hands down after having flown one yesterday. What a ride!)

As Ron said, with a fast airplane, it makes finding a good DE easier because it's no problem going to him/her.

Go for it.

Oh, and here is another excellent resource for RV builders:

http://www.vansairforce.net/

Regards.

-JD
 
Wow guys, Thanks for all the great info. I ask my instructor where I got my PPL and he said he has no problem training me in my own RV. He is thinking about building one himself. If only he made more money as a instructor :D.

Now I just have to find a DE willing to give me the checkride as I mentioned my desire for a RV with the DE who gave me my PPL checkride and she told me to stick to certified and not go experimental. She has a thing against experimentals, I guess. I'm a few years away for this but at least I know its completely legal. Thanks again guys.
 
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She has a thing against experimentals, I guess.

Some people have a "thing" for a reason. I'm a bit skittish about experimentals myself - I'd love to get a ride in the RV with Chris, but I don't think I'd ever buy one that someone else built unless I knew them REALLY well and would trust my life to them.

Those of you who have not listened to the "First Solo" episode of the Airspeed podcast should do that. There's an interesting perspective in there, and it's a damn good listen too.

Call me weak-kneed and small-bladdered if you will, but NASA lost an astronaut/CFI, Patricia Robertson, a few years ago when she was teaching in someone's experimental and they apparently lost control at low altitude.

My sister trains astronauts at NASA, which is how I heard about the accident. She said that Robertson was also a doctor and knew that as badly as she was burned she was going to die. She refused to let the paramedics sedate her until her husband arrived so she could say goodbye to him. She never awoke. :(

So, I will not belittle any CFI or DPE or anyone else who will not fly in an experimental built by somebody they've never met. I don't think I would either. I know there are plenty of superb craftsmen out there who build planes as good or better than the certified ones, but unless I know 'em first... No thanks.
 
Some people have a "thing" for a reason. I'm a bit skittish about experimentals myself - I'd love to get a ride in the RV with Chris, but I don't think I'd ever buy one that someone else built unless I knew them REALLY well and would trust my life to them.

I'm with you. My glider CFI bought a homebuilt glider. He was on final when the stick came off in his hand! The welding was atrocious and it just snapped off. There was enough of a stub left for him to land without any further damage.

I would also say that I'd want to know a lot about the kit designer as well as the builder. There are plenty of great designers out there (Lancair, Vans, Rutan), but there seem to be some dodgy ones too.

I work in aircraft certification, so I spend a fair amount of time with the FARs. They seem pretty reasonable to me. I think the experimental movement is fantastic and is a place where people can push the limits, knowing the risks they're taking. However, I need to know a lot about the builder and designer before I'm going to be able to evaluate how much of a risk I'm personally taking by climbing in to an experimental. That goes double in a training situation where we'll be doing more than gentle turns and cruising flight.

Chris
 
Some people have a "thing" for a reason. I'm a bit skittish about experimentals myself - I'd love to get a ride in the RV with Chris, but I don't think I'd ever buy one that someone else built unless I knew them REALLY well and would trust my life to them.

So, I will not belittle any CFI or DPE or anyone else who will not fly in an experimental built by somebody they've never met. I don't think I would either. I know there are plenty of superb craftsmen out there who build planes as good or better than the certified ones, but unless I know 'em first... No thanks.

I remember that accident. . . bad deal all around.

And, I agree with you about not flying in an airplane built by someone I don't know. But ironically, it was a late-model certificated airplane that damned near killed me when we went down in the trees at night. I've never had a hiccup out of either RV I've built.

But for a DE to tell a pilot during their checkride to "stick with certificated airplanes" is a pretty head-up-the-butt thing to say. I'd love to know her name so it could get passed on to EAA chapters and we'd make sure to never bother her with any BFRs or checkrides in any sort of aircraft--certificated or experimental.

I have a placard in the passenger compartment of the RV8 that reads:

"The Titanic was built and operated by professionals. The Ark was built and operated by amateurs."

I've also had two deadstick landings because of faulty equipment on professionally-built certificated airplanes. It's definitely an "each to their own" position, but for a supposed "professional" like this DE to make such a blanket statement only shows her overall ignorance.

Regards.

-JD
 
I agree Kent. But there is really well built Experimental stuff out there at a fraction of the price. My glider is a fine example. Workmanship and quality is superb, and the price was right. A thorough inspection is necessary when approaching something like this. There are a lot of experimentals out there that are pretty dodgy and I wouldnt fly in either. Chris's RV is not that way.
 
There are exceptions to every rule, and the Ark and the Titanic are two of them. However, as a general rule, one is more certain of the mechanical and aerodynamic reliability of a production certified aircraft than an Experimental one. Sure, I'd be happy to instruct in an Experimental airplane put together by Burt Rutan's shop, and I'd take a long hard look at a production certified airplane maintained by a few mechanics I don't trust, but the fact is that in most cases, you'll have to sell an instructor/examiner on flying in an amateur-built airplane but have little trouble getting one into a production certified one. For that reason, if you're planning on getting trained in an RV, you'd best find out before you build/buy it that you will have an instructor and an examiner who'll do the job for you.
 
I remember that accident. . . bad deal all around.

And, I agree with you about not flying in an airplane built by someone I don't know. But ironically, it was a late-model certificated airplane that damned near killed me when we went down in the trees at night. I've never had a hiccup out of either RV I've built.

But for a DE to tell a pilot during their checkride to "stick with certificated airplanes" is a pretty head-up-the-butt thing to say. I'd love to know her name so it could get passed on to EAA chapters and we'd make sure to never bother her with any BFRs or checkrides in any sort of aircraft--certificated or experimental.

I have a placard in the passenger compartment of the RV8 that reads:

"The Titanic was built and operated by professionals. The Ark was built and operated by amateurs."
I've also had two deadstick landings because of faulty equipment on professionally-built certificated airplanes. It's definitely an "each to their own" position, but for a supposed "professional" like this DE to make such a blanket statement only shows her overall ignorance.

Regards.

-JD

That's about the size of it right there.

Like most things, it's the overall integrity of the people you're dealing with/flying with that matters most, including the PIC who's doing the preflight and the golden maintenance guy, whether flying Home Built or so-called Certificated aircraft.
 
Personally, I wouldn't buy ANY aircraft - certified or experimental - without a thorough inspection either by me or, better yet, an A&P familiar with the type of a/c in question.

I definitely don't agree with a blanket statement such as "I won't fly in experimentals - period." I'll agree with JD on this one -- I've had 1,000 times more 'unfavorable' situations in certified airplanes than in RV's. Of course, I only have ~400 hrs total time, but a little less than half of that is in our RV.

At the same time, I can understand a CFI or DE being unwilling to instruct or examine in someone else's experimental especially if they are unfamiliar with the type aircraft and builder. I also think it is very disrespectful and irresponsible for someone such as a DE to say "Stay away from experimentals." Not exactly building up GA as a whole, eh?

Short story long -- if you're planning on doing your IR training in YOUR experimental airplane, start looking now for an instructor and DE that's comfortable instructing and doing checkride in your plane. It was my experience, though, that once I mentioned that I wanted to train in my RV, all of the instructors that I talked to said "Oh yeah! That sounds fun!" Heck, I bet if you pay him enough, even Tony will come out and knock it out for ya'! ;)

Just my .02 worth.

-Chris
 
There are exceptions to every rule, and the Ark and the Titanic are two of them. However, as a general rule, one is more certain of the mechanical and aerodynamic reliability of a production certified aircraft than an Experimental one. Sure, I'd be happy to instruct in an Experimental airplane put together by Burt Rutan's shop, and I'd take a long hard look at a production certified airplane maintained by a few mechanics I don't trust, but the fact is that in most cases, you'll have to sell an instructor/examiner on flying in an amateur-built airplane but have little trouble getting one into a production certified one. For that reason, if you're planning on getting trained in an RV, you'd best find out before you build/buy it that you will have an instructor and an examiner who'll do the job for you.

Remember. . . it was a certified airplane maintained by a certified, licensed A&P/IA that damn near killed me. Had there been anyone in the right seat, such as in instructor giving me a night-flight/IFR checkout, they would be reading this from underneath the roots of the daiseys growing over them.

The RV community is fairly tight and flush with CFIs and examiners. We know what to look for in the construction and logs and building history and we also know what to look for in the attitude of the builder/owner. I know instructors and examiners in the RV community who have refused checkouts/rides/BFRs/instruction in fellow RVers' aircraft.

The Lancair community, while smaller, is much the same and there are a number of Lancair owners who likewise are also instructors/examiners.

I know--and fully respect--your thoughts on statistics-per-incident andectdotal reasoning. But remember also that it was a certificated airplane that ran over an experimental at Oshkosh this year killing the passenger in the experimental.

I've seen more rental aircraft, even to this day, that I would be more afraid of flying than I have experimentals. And that is a dead-on fact. I would trust an instructor who he him/herself is an experimental owner to go up with me than many of the lowtime CFIs I see teaching at the ticket mills.

We have one such mill in my neck of the woods that prohibits and forbids the use of flaps throughout the duration of PPL and even instrument training. While there is no clear way to legally meet the PTS requirements for a PPL checkride without using flaps (if your aircraft has them), the local FSDO chief gives a wink & nod to this school because they are fairly sizeable and write nice letters to OKC about this jerkoff.

I doubt this FSDO chief is all that major of an exception.

But in the experimental communities I'm part of and familiar with, this attitude of a "wink & nod" over questionable, if not outright illegal, tactics is not tolerated. Yet, it goes on daily in this segment of the certificated side of general aviation.

For what it's worth, I don't hop in ANY airplane--certificated or experimental--if I'm not confident in the machine's airworthiness. For an instructor or examiner to tell a young pilot to steer clear of experiementals and stick with certificated aircraft. . . as a blanket statement, is displaying either ignorance or prejudice--two traits both defined by a clear and purposeful lack of firsthand knowledge.

Regards.

-JD
 
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The RV community is fairly tight and flush with CFIs and examiners. We know what to look for in the construction and logs and building history and we also know what to look for in the attitude of the builder/owner. I know instructors and examiners in the RV community who have refused checkouts/rides/BFRs/instruction in fellow RVers' aircraft.
Exactly my point. No doubt those RV specialists can make good decisions on whether or not to instruct/examine in any particular RV. The only question is whether one such is available near the original poster, and that's a question best asked of the RV owners group.

I know--and fully respect--your thoughts on statistics-per-incident andectdotal reasoning. But remember also that it was a certificated airplane that ran over an experimental at Oshkosh this year killing the passenger in the experimental.
Not exactly germane to our discussion, since that involved pilot error, not a material failure or surprise response from an aircraft.

I've seen more rental aircraft, even to this day, that I would be more afraid of flying than I have experimentals. And that is a dead-on fact. I would trust an instructor who he him/herself is an experimental owner to go up with me than many of the lowtime CFIs I see teaching at the ticket mills.
As I said above, I was generalizing, and I even suggested exceptions to my generalization. The point here is that the original poster needs to approach this with the foreknowledge that he may find difficulty in obtaining an instructor and/or examiner who'll work with him, and this should be investigated before commiting to this course of action.

Ron
 
As I said above, I was generalizing, and I even suggested exceptions to my generalization. The point here is that the original poster needs to approach this with the foreknowledge that he may find difficulty in obtaining an instructor and/or examiner who'll work with him, and this should be investigated before commiting to this course of action.

Ron

Agree. Agree uno-hundred-o percenté.

If you're going to build an RV, get tight with the RV community. Finding instructors/examiners that will ride with you is just but one benefit. The literal 1,000,000+ hours of builder experience alone will help the first time RV builder avoid many pitfalls experienced early on. That alone ups your safety/reliability factor exponentially.

Regards.

-JD
 
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