Getting a private pilots license after 60

John Baker said:
I talked with the CFI friend this morning and asked him if he could sell my plane for me. He said he could, but he thinks he has a better idea. He thinks I should put the plane in "The Club". He thinks I could make a grand a month off that bird.

That is an option I never considered doing before, but it sounds good to me now. He said he will get back to me with the details.

If nothing else, it's interesting.

John
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Check with your insurance agent, most CFIs are complete idiots when it comes to airplane ownership. Your insurance rates will likely skyrocket. I considered doing this for an aircraft of mine about 5 years ago, and when I looked at the insurance and maintenance, it became clear that I would stay roughly even while my aircraft got slowly trashed. Don't let a CFI who's never owned an aircraft talk you into slowly destroying yours.
 
John:

Check out the AOPA website for leaseback info and sample contracts. Leasing the airplane back to the club, or just "loaning it" to the club may not be the best financial move.

1) you are responsible for 100 hr inspection (no, this is NOT ANNUAL but every 100 hours of tach time)
2) insurance will go up at least 3x, probably more depending how the airplane is used (e.g. for initial or advanced training) and who will use it
3) you have no control how well the aircraft will be maintained outside the 100 hr inspection
4) do you get to set the hourly rate or does the club? Wet or dry?
5) how much of the hourly rate do you receive vs the club's take?

On the other hand, it's unlikely you can sell the aircraft for anything near what you paid for it.

Let's take an example (I was asked to put my cherokee in a school once and ran away as fast as I could). Assume 45 billable hours a month or 540 hours for the year. (5 hours each day during the weekend) That means a 100hr inspection every other month.

My insurance (at the time) would have tripled to $4000/yr
6 x 100 hr inspections @ $750 = 4500
12 oil changes @ $100 = 1200

So far we're up to $9700 and haven't even considered tires and other things that go wrong or what's found at inspection time that needs to be fixed.

Next - do you owe anything on the airplane or free & clear? Still owe, then add the mortgage to that figure.

Is the airplane hangared? Ok, what's that cost? Add that in, too.

Depreciation is really a non-issue these days with the depressed market for spam cans.

Run the numbers and don't take the CFI's word for it.
 
Thanks. I've always been leery of such deals so I have never entertained them, I've seen how clubs "look after" airplanes and it's not pretty. He just told me about this this morning. I told him about the insurance and maintenance issues and he still thinks I could get $1,000. per month. He said he will check into it.

My Warrior is paid in full and is a great looking and flying bird. As long as it looks good, I know it will rent well. The problem is after a few years of club stewardship, how will it rent then? Will it be even salable after that?

It only has five hundred hours left on the engine, which would have been fine for me if I could have finished up and used it for myself. A club will go through five hundred hours in just a few months, if that.

I'll wait to hear their pitch, but the more I think about it, the less excited I become.
I've been money F***ed enough in the wonderful world of aviation, I'm not ready for more of it.

John
 
It's not likely you'll make a ton of money but you might make a few dollars, enough for you to afford to keep the plane and fly when you want. It sort of depends who's responsible for periodic maintenance, recurring expenses (oil, fuel, insurance), and (like the engine) required maintenance.
As to the engine, look at what their total time requirement is. If they have a hard rule on overhaul time, and you're close, you don't have nearly enough time to build an engine budget. If they allow you to exceed the manufacturer's time, by how much? Some of that is driven by insurance requirements which you'll want to know who buys it and who pays for it.
Look at other club planes. How much time on them a year do they get and realistically how much time might you get?
Also, do you have a say in who flys? For instance, you might not want a student or a new mint flying it. Or you might only want IFR rated. You might also want to know how often a club member HAS to fly to stay current. Local school used to have a 90 day rule. They shifted to at least two hours in 60 days.
The short answer is it depends. Who are the other pilots and how much they fly.
 
Interesting possibility; all facets are negotiable, and not all club leases are a rip-off. As for the engine, well yeah, it could crater tomorrow, but an O-320 which is flown a lot will often make 2500 or more hours.
 
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This is my bird, anyone want it?

John
 
John, Have you considered a Light Sport Aircraft ticket? Maybe after you sell your current plane and get settled into where you move you could check that out as an option. I think it would involve a lot less beaurocracy and perhaps there will be a LSA plane at your new home field that you could use.

Safe journey
 
She's pretty. Should do well on Barnstormers or Controller.com I would think.
 
Jeanie said:
She's pretty. Should do well on Barnstormers or Controller.com I would think.
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I found her on Controller. She is pretty, and I fixed all the squawks. It had an oil caning wing walk, fixed it. The wheel fairings were damaged, had them fixed. Put in a fan for the avionics, solved the heat problems. The only thing that doesn't work is the ADF, so you miss out on am radio. I put in a new right window with a small openable window like on the pilots side, with a super scoop.

John
 
Gorgeous airplane (at least from a few feet away) and I'd buy it in a heartbeat if I didn't already have one. I am truly sorry this has given you so much trouble.

One thought I would like to make. Once you move outside of Southern California, a lot of the things become more reasonable in terms of cost. I pay 0.20 AMU/mo for a T-hangar with power and an electric door. My last annual was less than 1.5 AMU, which was a bit on the high side. My insurance is well under an AMU. Things are cheaper here, and allow me to own an aircraft. Something for you to think about.
 
I paid 47K for it five years ago. I've put another approximately 15K into making it right. The only squawk the FAA could find prior to my SODA was a crack continuing past a drill stop on the right wing tip. It could use a new right wing tip, and both wing tips painted. The cost for that is approximately 1k. It's annual is due August.

The interior and exterior, including all windows is an 8 or 9. She has been flown regularly. Almost no oil burn, about a quart every six or seven hours. It has a cover and a prop lock. Since I have owned her she has been maintained by Ted Hazlewood, at KSEE who is the examiner for A&E in this area. Then when I moved to KMYF, Gibbs Service Center took over. All very professional maintenance since I have owned her.

The first 35K gets it.

John
 
John Baker said:
I paid 47K for it five years ago. I've put another approximately 15K into making it right. The only squawk the FAA could find prior to my SODA was a crack continuing past a drill stop on the right wing tip. It could use a new right wing tip, and both wing tips painted. The cost for that is approximately 1k. It's annual is due August.

The interior and exterior, including all windows is an 8 or 9. She has been flown regularly. Almost no oil burn, about a quart every six or seven hours. It has a cover and a prop lock. Since I have owned her she has been maintained by Ted Hazlewood, at KSEE who is the examiner for A&E in this area. Then when I moved to KMYF, Gibbs Service Center took over. All very professional maintenance since I have owned her.

The first 35K gets it.

John
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How many hours on the engine? When was it overhauled? By who? What is in the panel? Pictures of panel/interior please. You're going to need to provide more info to sell an airplane...
 
Yep, it would be useful to post a full spec sheet - TTAF, damage history, the works.

Good luck with the sale - I think it helps to have thick skin, with prices the way they are these days.
 
Trapper John said:
Yep, it would be useful to post a full spec sheet - TTAF, damage history, the works.

Good luck with the sale - I think it helps to have thick skin, with prices the way they are these days.
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$35K? Great! Someone make me the same offer, and you can have my cherokee, too!

Right now the estimated "value" (based on TAP and a "gracious" friend who's a broker) is $21K. I paid $40K 10 years ago....
 
Thanks you guys. This is the first public announcement about me selling it. I have to get someone to post all the specks for me, I don't know how to post pictures. I got lucky one time and got that picture onto my BIO.

I think I will put all the details in the classifieds of this board, probably be more proper.

In August I will renew my medical and try and stay current for a while. I'm also selling my house if you want to buy a house. You never know when your going to need an extra house. :)

I've got three people looking at my plane now. Nothing means nothing until they hand me a check though.

John
 
I pay 0.20 AMU/mo for a T-hangar with power and an electric door. My last annual was less than 1.5 AMU, which was a bit on the high side. My insurance is well under an AMU. Things are cheaper here, and allow me to own an aircraft. Something for you to think about.[/quote]

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Steingar, What is an AMU?
 
AMU= aviation money unit, generally pegged 1 AMU = $1000
 
Oh, I figured it was something like that. I always assume aviation money units come in different amts. - eg: $100.00, $500.00, $1000.00 and then $5,000 It's kind of "binary"
 
There was a Cherokee at the formation fly-in that wasn't that had just come off a fresh restoration. The story was the guy set a limit of 30 AMU, then stopped keeping track. REALLY nice airplane, though. Put even mine to shame.

Don't feel too bad at a loss. Plenty of people far more upside down on their aircraft.
 
steingar said:
There was a Cherokee at the formation fly-in that wasn't that had just come off a fresh restoration. The story was the guy set a limit of 30 AMU, then stopped keeping track. REALLY nice airplane, though. Put even mine to shame.

Don't feel too bad at a loss. Plenty of people far more upside down on their aircraft.
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Thanks, I'm not upside down at all on it though. I paid cash when I bought it and have kept it up considerably better than most would. Everything is current, all ADs complied with. Everything works perfectly except the ADF. I was even going to have that fixed, the avionics guy said it would be a waste of money.

What is "30 AMU"?

John
 
Thirty thousand dollars. He set that limit, hit it, and just stopped keeping track as he continued to pour money in the aircraft. What he had in his panel was worth more than my whole airplane. Of course, these days that isn't saying much.
 
OK, now I got it. Yes, I am upside down on that bird. If I get my asking price, I will be getting about half of what I put into it. The money isn't really the point though, it was the experience that counts.

Life is short, get all you can squeeze out of it. If your life revolves around making money, staying nice and safe, and never getting in trouble, or at least accepting the risks that are associated with adventure, what exactly is the point?

Although it is true that whoever has the most money and stuff when they die is the winner, nevertheless, they are still all being dead, aren't they?

Did they really even live?

John
 
John Baker said:
If your life revolves around making money, staying nice and safe, and never getting in trouble, or at least accepting the risks that are associated with adventure, what exactly is the point?

Although it is true that whoever has the most money and stuff when they die is the winner, nevertheless, they are still all being dead, aren't they?

Did they really even live?

John
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No they didn't. Not IMHO and I'm sure many here feel the same. Nobody forces us to have our butts hanging out a mile or sometimes a lot more above the earth.
 
Six years ago this month, September, I had my very first Demo ride in a PA-28 Warrior at Gillespie Field in El Cajon, CA. Yesterday, over at Sheble Aviation in Arizona, http://shebleaviation.com/ I earned my PPL.

Six years, I have lost count of the hurdles and hoops, but I finally got it done.

Sheble Aviation has it so unbelievably together, I just have to recommend them to anyone having trouble getting finished up. The atmosphere seems very laid back, it's very deceiving. I was there four days and it was like a team effort from their entire staff to get me up to snuff. I have never in my life flown a high wing of any sort, yet I passed my check ride in a C-172.

I am just downright impressed with how that place operates. They are not one of those schools that has their hand in your wallet from the minute you arrive. They do not even mention money other than tell you at the beginning that the plane, wet, with an instructor is $140.00 an hour.

I had given up on ever getting my ticket until I called them. They do not bull5hit around, they get it done.

John
 
A very big congratulations, John. I know it has been a long road for you. :thumbsup:
 
:cheerswine::cheerswine:

Wow! That's great! After all you've described here, that's just outstanding!

John
 
Congratulations
 

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That clearly calls for conga-ratulations !!

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Congratulations! You must feel great now! I'm so happy for you.
 
Congrats, John. I'll admit to having some doubts as well. When you have time to think about it, I'd be interested in your perspective about why it worked so well this time compared to the others, and all the stuff that would be interesting to other pilots who may find themselves fighting a similar battle in the future.

And whether you sell the airplane or not, I hope you get some good trips and enjoyment from it first. You have sure as hell earned the right to have some payback for all the time, work and money you have invested.
 
wabower said:
When you have time to think about it, I'd be interested in your perspective about why it worked so well this time compared to the others, and all the stuff that would be interesting to other pilots who may find themselves fighting a similar battle in the future. .
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Two words: Sheble Aviation.

"Sheble Aviation has it so unbelievably together, I just have to recommend them to anyone having trouble getting finished up. The atmosphere seems very laid back, it's very deceiving. I was there four days and it was like a team effort from their entire staff to get me up to snuff. I have never in my life flown a high wing of any sort, yet I passed my check ride in a C-172.

I am just downright impressed with how that place operates. They are not one of those schools that has their hand in your wallet from the minute you arrive. They do not even mention money other than tell you at the beginning that the plane, wet, with an instructor is $140.00 an hour.

I had given up on ever getting my ticket until I called them. They do not bull5hit around, they get it done."

John
 
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