General aircraft purchase questions

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muleywannabe

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Cherokee235
I have been looking at planes with a couple of partners. We are looking at Piper 180's and some 140's. There are a lot of planes out there for sale right now, some seem like great deals, others seem really high priced. We have found several with 1,300 hour SMOH, good avionics and clean aircraft for a pretty good price. Then we have found some 700 SMOH or less and old outdated electronics relatively cheap.

my question is this, in your opinion or expertise (if that exists) would you rather have a upper mid time engine and newer electronics or a mid to low time engine and out dated electronics? all be known that this aircraft will be used for training and a stepping stone to eventually something bigger, faster etc. down the road in the next 3-5 years of use. Assuming flying with 3 partners no more than 150 hours a year etc.

thank you
 
Just remember that whatever it will cost you to do later will cost only about half as much to buy as part of the airplane. IOW, a GNS430W that would cost you $10K to install later probably only adds about $5K to the price of the plane. Likewise, a $20K engine overhaul probably only adds $10K to the price. So, the more you can get already done, the better the deal probably is for you. Further, if you will be selling the plane later to trade up, the higher the engine time and the fewer the avionics, the harder it will be to sell. So, all things considered, get as much as you can.

That said, if the choice is between modern electronics and a low time engine, keep in mind that you can run an engine a long time without changing your operation much, but IFR with ancient radios is a real pain from the first day.
 
Ron Levy said:
Just remember that whatever it will cost you to do later will cost only about half as much to buy as part of the airplane. IOW, a GNS430W that would cost you $10K to install later probably only adds about $5K to the price of the plane. Likewise, a $20K engine overhaul probably only adds $10K to the price. So, the more you can get already done, the better the deal probably is for you. Further, if you will be selling the plane later to trade up, the higher the engine time and the fewer the avionics, the harder it will be to sell. So, all things considered, get as much as you can.

That said, if the choice is between modern electronics and a low time engine, keep in mind that you can run an engine a long time without changing your operation much, but IFR with ancient radios is a real pain from the first day.
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That is kind of what we all thought as well. thanks for the input.
 
Look at usage in addition to hours. A 500 SMOH engine that flies 150 hours per year is a much better deal than a 500 SMOH engine that's flown 20 hours in the last 3 years. To paraphrase Mike Busch" "our aircraft engines don't wear out; they rust to death."

With what little I know I'd take an engine with more hours that's flown regularly over a low-time engine that hasn't been flown enough.
 
I'm going to be looking to buy at the end of the year.

From what I've gathered watching prices, try to stay below mid-time on the engine because that's when depreciation really starts to happen toward re-sell.

If you can get one with 600SMOH, if you sell it with 1000SMOH to trade up, you won't take much of a hit at all over the difference between those two times.

But if you buy a 1400SMOH and try to sell it with 1900SMOH, you are going to take a big hit in re-sell value.

And yes, buy the plane that's already the way you want it when it comes to avionics. Trying to install an A/P or IFR GPS after buying will cost you a ton more then buying it with the plane.

Make sure the plane was flown regularly in the past few years.
 
If it sat outside and sat for a over a year like that I'd pass. Everyone has a different theory but this oftentimes means the owner either lost interest, has not kept it up or both. All this old stuff bears great scrunity as there are a lot of structural problems involved not to mention the engine. If over 600 hours , like was said, you will have a Hard time unloading it if you fly it a lot. Many people fly the good hours out of the engine then unload it.
 
I was told by a broker just last week that a 1400 + hour engine is seen as a high time engine and anything above that 1400 hours doesn't change the value much at all. That is the opinion of one broker so... YMMV.
 
acluffpoa said:
I was told by a broker just last week that a 1400 + hour engine is seen as a high time engine and anything above that 1400 hours doesn't change the value much at all. That is the opinion of one broker so... YMMV.
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if you get a "high" time engine that has been run regularly and appears to be maintained well, it may be worth buying if it is priced accordingly. your odds are much better to go past TBO in such a plane. then you're getting "free" engine time in a sense. as someone else mentioned, a plane that has been flown consistently is often times much better than a hangar queen; 300SMOH doesn't mean a thing when you have to start making expensive repairs.
 
Looked at a twin that had 179 hours since MOH. Eight years old. Had to pass on the deal. Low time doesn't mean ,a good engine ,if it hasn't been run.
 
You have to get a mechanic to give the engine an honest compression check and you have to make sure there are no liens on the aircraft from previous loans. Not always easy to do.
 
Try to go into the purchase with resale in mind, you mentioned trading up, make sure you buy something that is desirable, not a great deal on an odd duck.:D
The cost difference between an airplane with an engine under mid-time with decent paint, interior and avionics isn't that much more than a high time airplane with weak paint, interior and avionics.;)
You will not recover the cost of upgrades, someone mention 50% and that's probably about right, an engine overhaul isn't an upgrade, it's maintenance that can be budgeted. An overhaul may cost $12-35K depending on the engine and airframe. :eek: Remember, most upgrades cost more than you think, because you'll always do something else, while you've got it opened up! :D
Let somebody else do the upgrades and engine overhaul, buy one with a low to mid time engine and equipped the way you want it and enjoy it.
 
coloradobluesky said:
You have to get a mechanic to give the engine an honest compression check and you have to make sure there are no liens on the aircraft from previous loans. Not always easy to do.
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Not that tough to do either and far better than to get screwed by being lazy enough not to do it. I would include a bore scope. If you go cheap and buy at the low end, you'll wind up being nickel and dimed to death and probably experience major engine repair. It's best to chose a model aircraft you can really afford, then buy one of the nicest , well kept ones you can find. Worked for me. At 1400 hours, the current owner is nervous and wants to unload it. And.....be sure you know your partners well. Sometimes that arrangement can ruin your whole day and wallet too!
 
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acluffpoa said:
I was told by a broker just last week that a 1400 + hour engine is seen as a high time engine and anything above that 1400 hours doesn't change the value much at all. That is the opinion of one broker so... YMMV.
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It depends on what the broker is selling you. :rofl::rofl:
There is an old joke in the car business: A man goes to trade in his car and the dealer tells him "casket gray" isn't real popular and isn't worth much. The man counters, "When I bought it, you said it was "executive gray"!! The dealer told him that's the difference between buying and selling! ;)
Not all brokers are bad actually most are pretty good guys and gals, but we all tend to present what we are selling in the best possible light. :D
 
I found a real nice plane not far from me (3 hour drive) with very updated interior, clean exterior, newer avionics etc. flown reguarly except for recently because the owner has had some medical issues. It has 3,800 TT and 1,400 TSMOH. purchase price seems reasonable as well. Does the 1,400 SMOH bother anyone other than the fact that there is technically about 600 hours til overhaul, which would take me about 6 years to accumulate.

your thoughts?
 
It looks nice, clean inside, etc. it has 1400 hours which may imply that the current owner ( who in most cases is not the only previous owner) wants to unload it. The log books may be in order but that can often be representative of what was done, but sometimes not everything that was done. Cars are usually viewed by the dealer as " getting on" with over 50,000 miles on it. Cars have an engine and so forth but have a liquid cooled engine in most cases, which uniform ally cools the engine better than an air cooled engine. Neither in the car or the aircraft does the buyer really know how it was driven or flown, ( which makes a big difference!) so....it's a crap shoot, like going to Las Vegas. You pay your money, you take your chances. I personally like lower time engines , decent up to speed control panel, and good paint and interior. Engine problems can cost big big money. Only my opinion but it's worked for me ESPECIALLY when I've sold each aircraft. It's pay me now or pay me later, always. Too many things left out. Price? Oil filter? Oil analysis done regularly? Prop log? Age of prop? On and on.
 
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They had taken great care of it, having put in new fuel lines, sealed the fuel tanks, kept up all the A D s, installed a vertical card compass, new carpet etc. they had kept very thorough records on the plane, and had all the form 337 reports throughout the crafts' history. There was nothing alarming in all these maintenance reports from previous owners.

Current owner has had it 3 years and have had both the fuselage and wings corrosion treated as a preventative measure, at the last annual had both mags rebuilt. There have been no significant problems at the annuals.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Sounds like your determined. Go for it.
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hahaha...definitely not determined at all, that was a word for word response from the current owner. I am still in fact finding missions and looking for deals out there. I do not want to buy something and then immediately put money into it, not my goal, then again we cant predict that either. I am determined to buy something in the near future, just dont want to buy something that I cant sell down the road either.

This one looks nice but its a long ways from me http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail...e+Piston/1965/Piper/Cherokee+180/1747352.html
 
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Keep in mind that no one can tell you how long your engine is going to last. It may go 3000 hrs or it can crap out tomorrow. If you're not prepared to overhaul the engine, you may want to rethink ownership.
 
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