Gasoline/diesel price inversion
- Thread starter Morne
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steingar
Taxi to Parking
Laws, taxes, fees and the like. Diesel is less refined than gasoline, and should be less expensive as its cheaper to make. It iwas less expensive where I was in Europe, and every other car was diesel.
p1l0t
Line Up and Wait
Taxes. The government is spending out-of-control so it has an excuse to raise taxes on everyone. That's it works in government, spend more, get more.
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Ted
The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted
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iFlyNothing
Quantity and regulations.
100LL is a very expensive fuel to make, and represents such a small percentage of the total petroleum used that it is considered a "specialty chemical" rather than a fuel. Combine this with all the annoyances that come with processing and transporting lead (100LL requires its own distribution network that cannot be shared with automotive gas), and you get a lot of cost from all of that.
By comparison, Jet A represents one of the highest-consumed fuels. The fact that so much of it is used allows for the distribution network to be larger and therefore cheaper per gallon than 100LL.
I'm sure that taxes and such have some impact as well, but the real root of it is that 100LL is not car gas (well, at some level it's similar), but requires even more checks and a more strict distribution network, with very few gallons used relatively.
motospeed9058
Pre-takeoff checklist
BiffJ
Pre-takeoff checklist
One other minor (major?) detail is that diesel regs changed not too long ago and required the fuel to contain less than 15ppm of sulfur. That was a pretty big deal according to refiners so the expense has gone up due to removing all that sulfur. At least thats what they tell us poor diesel users. I still get better mileage in the VW that more than makes up for the difference in cost. For some reason the us consumer has been hornswaggled into believing that diesel is bad for the environment....worse than gasoline. Not sure how they managed that bit of marketing. The prius is a joke and so are most of the hybrids. My VW Jetta averages 42+mpg city and highway. A prius is lucky to get into the high 30's on the highway. A prius with a diesel might actually make sense but with a gas engine....
Frank
Frank
Ted
The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted
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iFlyNothing
It all depends on what you're looking at as far as pollutants. In America, they're focusing heavily on the particulate emissions that diesels give off. Europe likes diesels because they consume less overall fuel, and take the particulate emissions.
What I will say is that, after driving on the highway all day in France, my throat is sore and I notice the diesel emissions. Even in New York City (with primarily gas vehicles) I don't notice it.
Personally, though, I'm in the diesel camp. Makes a lot more sense overall to me.
The Prius is a pretty bad car for the environment. Crappy highway fuel economy, decent city. But to get decent mileage, people accelerate so slowly they get run over (and/or create traffic hazards), and the batteries create such environmental havoc it outweighs any potential benefit from lower fuel consumption.
As I said, I think diesels make more sense. I've loved the two diesel vehicles I've owned. The only reason I don't own one now is that I couldn't justify the higher purchase cost for how my driving is these days.
ScottM
Taxi to Parking
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iBazinga!
Your Jette is doing better than mine. My 2009 TDI is averaging 36.9 city/highway. That is taking into account each and every tank of fuel since purchase for about 28500 miles
http://www.fuelly.com/driver/scott16b/jetta
Gary
En-Route
Interesting... We just bought a 2012 Golf TDI. A bit too soon to tell, but a recent trip of +/-950 miles (mostly highway cruising) gave us an overall 46 MPG for the trip. The wife loves it... that is worth LOTS!
Think the Golf and the Jetta are pretty similar cars.
BTW - there is a recent recall for the common rail fuel injection system, I don't have the reference but is is on the NHTSA website.
Found it! http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/recalls/results.cfm
NHTSA Campaign ID # 11V490000
Gary
PS - As far as a high quality, comfortable small car, the Golf was hard to beat.
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ScottM
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iBazinga!
I get about 44 on the highway. My driving is mostly city. If you look on that link I posted you can see my last highway trip in July. Really got a bounce on the ole mpg!
I look into the recall. It is almost time for the 30k oil change anyways.
John Baker
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I just picked up my lunch from the local Mexican restaurant. I parked in back near the grease storage thing. I could not help but notice it had a lock on it, so I asked them why? I mean, who the heck would want to steal nasty old restaurant grease?
It seems that people who own converted diesel autos are ripping it off to power their cars for free. Who wooda thunk?
John
It seems that people who own converted diesel autos are ripping it off to power their cars for free. Who wooda thunk?
John
alaskaflyer
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Why do you feel that is a phenomenon limited to the Prius? I see people doing that in the TDI VW's too.
And I don't see highway fuel economy in the mid to high thirties as "crappy."
Worse than the TDI diesels, yes, but much better than most of the cars in that weight and size class and equal to many cars in the class smaller such as the Yaris and mini Cooper. I guess everything is relative. Like the "havoc" from NiMH. Toyota claims a large percentage of each battery is recycled and/or neutralized before disposal.I wouldn't get a Prius if the majority of my driving is highway. I wouldn't get a TDI if the majority of my driving is start and stop. And I wouldn't get either if neither gave me enough room for what I want to do. As a recent story I read the other day highlighted, vehicle purchase decisions in this country continue to be as much about emotion and personal identity as anything else. As can be evidenced in this thread.
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Gary
En-Route
OK - pretty close. Had some reservations about going the diesel route, but a powerful lobby group (Wife & Son, LLC) prevailed. Was quite the bounce there!
Gary
Gary
En-Route
We did look at the Prius, not a bad car - but - wasn't all that comfortable, is a pretty complicated car, mediocre performance. Hear you about the "slow accelerators" see that more and more.
And I don't see highway fuel economy in the mid to high thirties as "crappy."
Mid to high 30's as a MPG number is pretty good! The Golf is a bit bigger than the Yaris and Mini, but ride, handle and perform much better. Time will tell on the issue of recycling the NiMH batteries.
Gary
denverpilot
Tied Down
Our Jetta wagon TDI gets close to 40 m/gal on the highway and significantly less in town...
... now that it's had $13000 in repairs since new. New transmission, two new intake manifolds, countless plastic crap breaking including plastic "globe" tanks under the hood, a new sunroof motor...
German engineering indeed. Piece of crap.
... now that it's had $13000 in repairs since new. New transmission, two new intake manifolds, countless plastic crap breaking including plastic "globe" tanks under the hood, a new sunroof motor...
German engineering indeed. Piece of crap.
BillTIZ
Final Approach
And your exhaust smells like French fries.
Apache123
Line Up and Wait
For a while I was driving our jetta tdi 73 miles each way for work, driving like a sloth (65mph max) I averaged 60ish mpg over the course of 14 months. Love them diesels.
BiffJ
Pre-takeoff checklist
I didn't mean to start a pursefight between diesel and so called green cars....
Diesel particulate pollution keeps the carbon in solid form and while its a bit annoying for some it is much less toxic than the waste from the lithium battery used in the so-called "green" hybrids. Waste produced when the battery is made and more waste when its life is up.
My VW is a 2006 TDI with the PD injection system. It seems each new iteration of the injection setup has dropped the mileage a bit. The earlier mechanical injection pump actually got better mileage than mine and the newer common rail setup seems to get less. We all still beat the prius in both highway mileage, acceleration, load carrying capability and room/comfort. I've only run this particular TDI for 80K miles and have achieved as much as 49.8mpg and the lowest has been 39.5mpg. Its takes a lot of work to get the mileage below 40mpg. 45+ is the norm for the highway.
In any case, removing sulfur from the fuel is one big reason given for the diesel price being higher than gas. Wintertime tends to drive the price up too since home heating oil cuts into diesel production.
Frank
Diesel particulate pollution keeps the carbon in solid form and while its a bit annoying for some it is much less toxic than the waste from the lithium battery used in the so-called "green" hybrids. Waste produced when the battery is made and more waste when its life is up.
My VW is a 2006 TDI with the PD injection system. It seems each new iteration of the injection setup has dropped the mileage a bit. The earlier mechanical injection pump actually got better mileage than mine and the newer common rail setup seems to get less. We all still beat the prius in both highway mileage, acceleration, load carrying capability and room/comfort. I've only run this particular TDI for 80K miles and have achieved as much as 49.8mpg and the lowest has been 39.5mpg. Its takes a lot of work to get the mileage below 40mpg. 45+ is the norm for the highway.
In any case, removing sulfur from the fuel is one big reason given for the diesel price being higher than gas. Wintertime tends to drive the price up too since home heating oil cuts into diesel production.
Frank
jnmeade
Cleared for Takeoff
I heard on the radio (third party - no verification) that the new diesel meets European standards, so now diesel can be sold into the European market. Thus, diesel pricing is affected by demand in Europe. I don't know if this is accurate or not, just passing on what I heard from a guy who runs a major fuel additive company.
JesseD
Line Up and Wait
I'm going to chime in a little here on hybrid vs diesel. It all comes down to usage. You drive a lot of highway? An efficient diesel is the choice for MPG. You do a lot of stop & go driving? The hybrid will do better. How's that go with buying planes again? You buy a plane to fit the mission. The same should apply for cars, right?
People get clouded over the whole green issue. They think it's good or bad. Well it depends on the application, like anything else.
Ted
The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted
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Correct. But most Prius drivers I see don't actually buy the car to fit their mission, they buy it as a statement. Then they go 55 mph in a 65 mph zone in the middle lane, getting passed by everyone on both sides, and don't check the mirrors before cutting others off.
Sorry, sterotype on the car here. It just has an alarming correlation with reality.
My issue with hybrids is that, while they can reduce fuel consumption, the batteries and associated electronics are an environmental menace.
Agreed.
p1l0t
Line Up and Wait
Yeah let's burn coal to produce electricity less efficently (because of loss in transmition over power lines) so I can not as good gas mileage on the highway in my $24,000 prius as an $8000 chevy caviler. FAIL The only viable 'green' way to power a nation of electric cars would be with more nuke plants. We COULD run ethanol which is 90% cleaner than regular gas but NO its not perfectly emissions free so we can't use that as a step down. (Cellusoic ethanol does not use the edible part of the plant and has 35:1 return not 1.3:1 like common advertised by oil companies). I can't really talk though, I drive a turbo-charged Subaru that because of the way I have it tuned gets like 20mpg at best. It fun to f with that Prius driver in the left lane though. When they spill their coffee all I can translate from them through the window from their angry lip movements is "Damnit Maverick!" Or "I hate that guy.." One day I will get shot by a Prius driver who actually carries.. IF they can catch me LOL Its funny to if you get on to the highway all slow and then punch it at last second to merge into traffic and they are stuck risking their life trying to merge at like 30mph ROFL I'll bet though you could trick out the computer to waste the entire batterie in one short spurt and get some amazing torque.. if your a hacker AND a car guru AND you have a prius..?
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Anthony
Touchdown! Greaser!
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Anthony
Shoot back.
Just like a Japanese Zero, no self sealing fuel tanks, no pilot armour, flimsy, lightweight construction due to being underpowered. One round, and it will blow up.
:wink2:
JesseD
Line Up and Wait
I like nuclear, wind, hydro, et al., power. There's a great deal of NIMBY in the US though. Even "business-friendly" Republicans ban / regulate anything if a group whines. (Scotty in Wisconsin just did this with wind turbines)
p1l0t
Line Up and Wait
Doggtyred
En-Route
My new 2012 Jetta TDI averaged 41.0 mpg last tank and 10 cents per mile fuel cost.
MSPAviator
Cleared for Takeoff
You need to bypass your EGR.
denverpilot
Tied Down
I saw the first of many local Prii with winter snow tires on it this week. Those "low rolling resistance" tires that allow the high gas mileage get taken off every year about this time, around here.
They look pretty awful with cheap steel wheels on them, too. Even more like a kid's go-cart.
They look pretty awful with cheap steel wheels on them, too. Even more like a kid's go-cart.
Anthony
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Anthony
Americans don't want to drive around in cheap looking clown cars. We shouldn't have to either. We have PLENTY of energy if we just are allowed to retrieve it and process it. There is no reason our standard of living should suffer, but the greenies feel guilty so want to turn us into Ethiopia.
BiffJ
Pre-takeoff checklist
maybe we need to vote kommiefornia out of the union and send all the greenies there....?
Frank
Frank