Garmin 696 and Approach Database

drgwentzel

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Kobra
Flyers,

I just wrote to Garmin's Suggestion Box with the letter below. I was just wondering what the groups thoughts are on this topic. I personally would like to see Garmin flooded with letters and emails on this issue if your view is similar. Garmin's address is: productsupport@garmin.com

Dear Garmin product developers:

First, congratulations on another great addition to the X96 line of portable aviation GPS products. Bravo! You made new features that are definitely worth upgrading from my 396.

I do have a comment though and it concerns your decision to disable the Approach Plate Database if it is expired at or greater than six months. I do not think this is a wise decision and I will explain why below:

It is not Garmin`s responsibility to decide for the Pilot in Command if they can look at charts that he or she paid for, expired or not. It is the Pilot in Command’s responsibility to make a decision if they should look at an out of date chart or not. Lives may depend on it!

Many of us don’t fly a lot of IFR and therefore may only update our charts once in while. After our charts have expired, a pilot may suddenly find themselves in a bad weather situation where an approach chart into an airport may save their lives and that of their passengers. If this should happen then by god we need to bring that chart up…six months old or older we don’t care! Anything is better than NOTHING!

What should have been done is that the 696 should WARN the Pilot that he or she is trying to bring up an out of date chart and INSIST the pilot CONFIRM that he or she still wishes to use the plate anyway. You can harshly admonish the pilot of the dangers in doing this and in all your best legal speak inform them that Garmin will NOT be responsible for the Pilot in Command’s decision to use an out of date approach chart, blah, blah, blah. Press ENTER to Continue.

A Garmin representative on AVWeb stated that this was done for safety’s sake. Hmmm, if it was for safety’s sake then following that logic, why don't you disable ALL databases if they're not current? After all, relying on an out of date aviation database or an obstacle database or a satellite database can land a hapless pilot in an ugly situation very quickly.

i.e. If we are using the obstacle database on a VFR approach at night to reassure us that we aren't going to hit anything and a new TV antenna was just erected near by...there could be danger there. So why allow pilots to depend on it...just shut it down!

i.e. If we are flying at night and an engine failure occurs and we depend on the satellite database to find a farmer's field to set down, but the database is out of date and now there's a new housing development there...hmmm...then depending on an out of date satellite database is dangerous too. Let’s just shut it down!

During an emergency the FAA allows a pilot to deviate from any clearance and any rule, to the extent required, to meet that emergency. That might involve depending on an out of date approach chart, but unfortunately GARMIN has decided to TRUMP the FAA guidelines and the pilot in command’s authority and remove that critical information from our use.

Please, we don’t need Garmin to save us from ourselves. Let the Pilot in Command make the in-flight decisions. After all, it is us and our families who are in the air; you and your families are on the ground.

[end of letter]

Now, as always in these groups I will wait for all the, "Well if you were a REAL pilot like me..." posts to start, such as:
"Well if you were a REAL pilot like me, you'd never have an out of date chart."
"Well if you were a REAL pilot like me, you'd always have paper backups"
"Well if you were a REAL pilot like me, you'd butch up and pony up for the year subscription you cheap b@&!@d!"
"Well if you were a REAL pilot like me, you'd NEVER find yourself in a bad weather situation!"

Go ahead, let me have it...I can take it.

Kobra
 
Now, as always in these groups I will wait for all the, "Well if you were a REAL pilot like me..." posts to start, such as:
"Well if you were a REAL pilot like me, you'd never have an out of date chart."
"Well if you were a REAL pilot like me, you'd always have paper backups"
"Well if you were a REAL pilot like me, you'd butch up and pony up for the year subscription you cheap b@&!@d!"
"Well if you were a REAL pilot like me, you'd NEVER find yourself in a bad weather situation!"

Go ahead, let me have it...I can take it.

Kobra

Luckily--we have little of that around here--and if we do it is generally just people joking around.
 
Sorry, but I agree with Garmin. If I were in their shoes I'd do exactly the same thing, only I'd probably do it at 90 days, not 180 days. Jepp enforces similar stuff on their electronic charting programs, for similar reasons.
 
I think you should have addressed this to the Garmin legal dept as I'm sure it was their idea, not product development, to disable this to avoid possible lawsuits over people using expired data.

But I agree with you, it should not be disabled.
 
I think you should have addressed this to the Garmin legal dept as I'm sure it was their idea, not product development, to disable this to avoid possible lawsuits over people using expired data.

But I agree with you, it should not be disabled.

Do they warn you if the chart is one day expired? If they don't warn one day expired I'm not sure how blocking 6 months would really help them.
 
This is in the 696 manual:

FliteCharts Cycle Number and Expiration Date
FliteCharts data is revised every 28 days. Charts are still viewable during a period
that extends from the cycle expiration date to the disabled date. FliteCharts is
disabled 180 days after the expiration date and are no longer available for viewing
upon reaching the disabled date. When turning on the GPSMAP 695/696, the Powerup
Page indicates any of five different possible criteria for chart availability. These

indications are whether the databases are not configured, not available, current, out of date, or disabled.

I don't agree with Garmin's decision to make the charts unavailable 180 days after expiration date.
 
Do they warn you if the chart is one day expired? If they don't warn one day expired I'm not sure how blocking 6 months would really help them.

My point is that Garmin is NOT doing this (or Jep for that matter) for legal purposes or because they are such a benevolent and compassionate company so concerned for our safety...no it is my point that it is done for $$$$ reasons at the EXPENSE of our safety.

Isn't it true that Air Charts subscribers can legally and safely use up to one year old charts by referring to the change log? Garmin's `gotcha` by denying access to the charts is a definite user disaccomodation.

Kobra
 
My point is that Garmin is NOT doing this (or Jep for that matter) for legal purposes or because they are such a benevolent and compassionate company so concerned for our safety...no it is my point that it is done for $$$$ reasons at the EXPENSE of our safety.

Isn't it true that Air Charts subscribers can legally and safely use up to one year old charts by referring to the change log? Garmin's `gotcha` by denying access to the charts is a definite user disaccomodation.

Kobra
That's very well put.

Garmin isn't doing this for our safety. Maybe they'll claim it's for our safety (just like the credit card companies), but really, it's for their own benefit alone.

Good reason not to buy the unit. I don't want equipment that decides for me when it will work and when it won't.

-Felix
 
Good reason not to buy the unit. I don't want equipment that decides for me when it will work and when it won't.

+1

I think the 696 is pretty cool but it has now been removed from my list. They won't be getting a sale from me.
 
Sorry Garmin-

I don't like equipment that thinks for me.
 
My point is that Garmin is NOT doing this (or Jep for that matter) for legal purposes or because they are such a benevolent and compassionate company so concerned for our safety...no it is my point that it is done for $$$$ reasons at the EXPENSE of our safety.

Isn't it true that Air Charts subscribers can legally and safely use up to one year old charts by referring to the change log? Garmin's `gotcha` by denying access to the charts is a definite user disaccomodation.

Kobra
Then don't buy the unit - or turn it back in. Let me know what other EFB applications you find out there that let you download charts and use them forever.
 
Then don't buy the unit - or turn it back in. Let me know what other EFB applications you find out there that let you download charts and use them forever.
Well, the FAA allows you to download the PDFs of their approach charts and, AFAIK, you never lose the ability to view them. The expiration date is printed right there on the side of the chart. It's YOUR responsibility to check it as PIC!
 
Well, the FAA allows you to download the PDFs of their approach charts and, AFAIK, you never lose the ability to view them. The expiration date is printed right there on the side of the chart. It's YOUR responsibility to check it as PIC!
Exactly. The PIC is going to be responsible for any accident, and since I have all te responsibility, I also want to make all the decisions myself. Garmin's Best Buy roots are showing. We don't need that in aviation....

Don't some of the Avidyne units disable charts after some time, too? Ugh.
 
How much does the approach plate update cost? I couldn't find it on the Garmin site.

Joe
 
How much does the approach plate update cost? I couldn't find it on the Garmin site.

Joe
Our senior CFI flies a Navajo part-time for one of his former students. Said student bought a 696 with every accessories possible. According to my fellow CFI, the total subscription cost is over $1400 per year. He didn't mention the cost of approach plates only but suggested making the all other items an annual update and the plates every 28 days would make the cost more manageable. This student will pick up the tab on all of it and the CFI gets to use it anywhere he chooses even when teaching others.

Nice bennies!
 
Wow, $1400/yr is only a bit cheaper than keeping our Cirrus up to date with Jepp plates, 2 430Ws, Avidyne obstacles, it comes out to a little more than $1,600/yr.
 
Wow, $1400/yr is only a bit cheaper than keeping our Cirrus up to date with Jepp plates, 2 430Ws, Avidyne obstacles, it comes out to a little more than $1,600/yr.
And the really big difference... the 696 isn't certified for IFR.
 
Good grief.. The 696 is a VFR gps, and you can buy it and use it without spending another dime on it. All the "add-ons" like weather, terrain, charts, are just that - extras.

Want updated data - pay for it. Want weather? pay for it.

Why don't you folks complain that Garmin doesn't provide XM WX for free forever too?

And Felix, it's not "thousands" per year.
 
Well, the FAA allows you to download the PDFs of their approach charts and, AFAIK, you never lose the ability to view them. The expiration date is printed right there on the side of the chart. It's YOUR responsibility to check it as PIC!

And the FAA/NACO has no cost to defend a lawsuit.

And Sony doesn't sell the book reader as an aviation device.

And the folks like anywhere map don't have lots of assets.

Again, if I was responsible for protecting the assets of a business like Garmin, or Jeppesen, I'd do something similar.

Don't like the decision? Don't buy the product. Go buy a 496 and bypass the whole argument, unless you want to whine about the cost of weather.
 
C'mon folks, didja really expect anything different in this litigious society?

And seriously, if there's even a chance of bad weather, I have current charts/sectionals/etc. on board. Is that so difficult?

That said, I also don't like the auto-disable feature, but there are too many people in this world that never update anything, and use data that's many years old. I can't really fault Garmin for doing this. :no: :(
 
Again, if I was responsible for protecting the assets of a business like Garmin, or Jeppesen, I'd do something similar.
Jeppesen's Jeppview also lets you view their charts, even from an expired database. There is a warning when you open the program but if you acknowlege it you can bypass it. After all the database is already on your computer.
 
I fly out of JSV and the RNAV/GPS RW 35 has a revision "orig" in other words this approach has never changed since it came out (abt 5 yrs ago). Doesnt really matter what database or book I take it from it's the same. If it changed to "Rev A" then it would matter! So it is my responsibility to make sure that I have current information. I think
Garmin should make you acknowledge that it's expired and go on. But I see Garmin's point, they are going to get sued if someone crashes in an approach with a 696 on board with expired information and they make money this way. I use Aircharts approach plates and always check the updates before a trip and as a backup I use the Nacomatic Plates on an Acer One netbook with up to date database. I use a 396 in the 310 and would have bought a 496 had it been out when I purchased but I dont think I will go for a 696. Just my personal view!
 
Jeppesen's Jeppview also lets you view their charts, even from an expired database. There is a warning when you open the program but if you acknowlege it you can bypass it. After all the database is already on your computer.

Not forever. I was a Jeppview user too, and while you can still look at expired plates, after a certain period (and I think it's six months), you can no longer view the charts, and they won't show up in Flitestar either.
 
Not forever. I was a Jeppview user too, and while you can still look at expired plates, after a certain period (and I think it's six months), you can no longer view the charts, and they won't show up in Flitestar either.
I haven't even had the program for six months yet and I've never let the database expire for more than about a month so I didn't know. We have Jeppview in the airplane and it came with some licenses for personal computers so I put a copy on mine just for the heck of it.
 
Well, the FAA allows you to download the PDFs of their approach charts and, AFAIK, you never lose the ability to view them. The expiration date is printed right there on the side of the chart. It's YOUR responsibility to check it as PIC!
Wow think what you just wrote Grant!!

You just said, basically, that the US government allows us to think for ourselves but private industry must think for us!

I agree with you, I am just amazed at that it is true, it would seem counter intuitive to what we usually see. Garmin should not be disabling these charts. I agree with the OP, it is up to the PIC to decide to use these. And in a pinch out of date charts are better than nothing.
 
Seeing how Garmin is over priced for what they offer anyway, this is just one more reason to avoid them. Make the switch to any number of other GPSes that offer the same functionality for less price....and the data that you buy remains yours.
+1 Nick. I am so annoyed with their pricing. It just does nto add up to what the product is worth. The 496 prices shuld be half of what they are. I have not bought their aviation products because I do nto like their pricing model. Now that I found a way to rent a 396 I can do that for a long time and stay ahead of the curve.
 
Make the switch to any number of other GPSes that offer the same functionality for less price
Well, let's see. Here's the functionality I use most on my 496: XM weather, XM radio, automotive GPS navigation. If I ever get off my butt and order the proper harness, I'll also integrate it with my all-Garmin panel. What other aviation GPS offers all those capabilities?
 
As long as demand stays high and for the desired features that are available by that one manufacturer, they shall maintain a high market share and their prices will reflect just that.

If Cessna had never reentered the single engine market to the extent they did, I suspect we'd be seeing substantially higher prices on other certified aircraft.
 
Wow think what you just wrote Grant!!

You just said, basically, that the US government allows us to think for ourselves but private industry must think for us!

I agree with you, I am just amazed at that it is true, it would seem counter intuitive to what we usually see. Garmin should not be disabling these charts. I agree with the OP, it is up to the PIC to decide to use these. And in a pinch out of date charts are better than nothing.

Doesn't Garmin source their data from the government? I'd sure like to know how much Garmin is marking up the cost of the data that we the taxpayers are funding!


Trapper John
 
I'd stay away from the PDA version of AnywhereMap (or anything else). Just about the time they get a particular PDA working well & stable, it's obseleted. I've seen more problems with PDA based instruments (lab equipment) than almost all computing devices combined. I wouldn't trust a PDA with anything important.
 
Well I understand the need for liablity protection an safety issues however you as the owner are buying the Electronic chart. The comparison to XM Wx is intersting but I'd say that buying the Chart is like buying a product vs. buying the XM is like buying a service. IMHO you buy the product you gt to look at it for ever but you buy a service well they aint gonna provide it forever.
 
Wow think what you just wrote Grant!!

You just said, basically, that the US government allows us to think for ourselves but private industry must think for us!

I agree with you, I am just amazed at that it is true, it would seem counter intuitive to what we usually see. Garmin should not be disabling these charts. I agree with the OP, it is up to the PIC to decide to use these. And in a pinch out of date charts are better than nothing.
Oh, I'm quite aware of the irony. I'm sure part of that is because it's awfully hard to sue the Governmint for damages. I don't know that they're indemnified, but it wouldn't surprise me. Maybe that's the start of tort reform?:yikes:
 
+1 Nick. I am so annoyed with their pricing. It just does nto add up to what the product is worth. The 496 prices shuld be half of what they are. I have not bought their aviation products because I do nto like their pricing model. Now that I found a way to rent a 396 I can do that for a long time and stay ahead of the curve.
Well, a product is worth what people are willing to pay, and there seem to be enough takers of the x96 series at these prices to justify their manufacture. (Including us, I'll add.) We looked at OSH iin '07 and didn't find anything else that quite fit the bill.
 
The bottom line is that Jepp and Garmin are going to extort every penny out of you that they possibly can. It starts with Garmin's requirement of their US dealers to price fix and goes on from there...and goes, and goes, and goes, and goes.
 
The bottom line is that Jepp and Garmin are going to extort every penny out of you that they possibly can. It starts with Garmin's requirement of their US dealers to price fix and goes on from there...and goes, and goes, and goes, and goes.

The term "price fix" is a little strong there because it suggests criminal intent- it is a violation of the Sherman Antitrust Act. If you have proof of price fixing- bring it to the local AG office.

I don't disagree that Garmin is making a lot of money here (as is Jeppeson). They may even be skirting on the legal edge. I agree Garmin and Jeppeson are trying to get as much out of us as possible.
 
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