G.I. Bill benefits for Flight Training

GB403

GB403

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GB403
Post 911 G.I. Bill benefits offers around $12K for eligible veterans (and also depending on the percentage of qualification) for flight training during an academic year: August 1 to July 31. Has anyone used their VA benefits for flight training in the SoCal area? Any problems and/or missed expectations?
 
I used my post 9/11 benefit in texas at a 141 school to get my IR. Was painless other than I had to pay out off pocket first then the VA reimbursed me after I graduated. Other than that worked great.
 
simtech said:
I used my post 9/11 benefit in texas at a 141 school to get my IR.
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Were you able to use it for an IFR-only program? Every place I've looked, their program is both IFR and commercial.
 
simtech said:
I used my post 9/11 benefit in texas at a 141 school to get my IR. Was painless other than I had to pay out off pocket first then the VA reimbursed me after I graduated. Other than that worked great.
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ughh, Id be very leery of this type of arrangement where you pay first. I don't think that is in the spirit of what the VA intends. The VA pays *the school*!
So what happens when you cut a check up front, the flight school goes belly up or runs into financial issues or whatever and they run off with your money AND subsequently, the VA money? It would not be the first time a flight school up and folds with peoples money. There is a relatively shady flight school in my area that does VA benefits this way and I thought that was an anomaly. Apparently its more common than I thought...

Some schools seem to look at dealing with VA as a burden and dont treat the students all that great as a result. No part of govt is all that fun to deal with but as far as Ive ever heard, the VA GI Bill process is relatively easy and the money always shows up about a month later. As an instructor at a competing school at the same location as a school that takes the GI Bill, Ive seen and heard of alot of students being treated poorly.

Make sure you set your expectations in advance and go in with a clear understanding of how its all gonna work. Stay on them and make sure your money is used wisely. I would stay far away of any "you may me first then the VA pays me and I reimburse you" arrangement. I'm not sure that the VA would be all that happy if they found out that is how its being done. Don't even know that it is legal for them to do. I have known some pretty solid students who tell me stories of being treated like crap while using their benefits and, at worst, some felt as though they were being milked for the VA $ while being treated like second class citizens when compared to the trust funded 16 year olds.

I'm just rambling about what I have heard, I'm not saying don't use the money, the VA is actually the easiest link to deal with in the chain.

As an alternative, I have seen people enroll in a degree program for something, whether they "need" a degree (or an additional degree) or not just to collect the BAH. You then take the BAH, which is much more per year than what they give you for flight training, and knock out whatever ratings you want part 61 and still have money left over to play around with. Of course you still have to make the time to do the coursework for whatever degree you are doing but that can be easy, depending. Just some thoughts.
 
simtech said:
I used my post 9/11 benefit in texas at a 141 school to get my IR. Was painless other than I had to pay out off pocket first then the VA reimbursed me after I graduated. Other than that worked great.
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Thanks for the reply...good info.
 
canav08 said:
So what happens when you cut a check up front, the flight school goes belly up or runs into financial issues or whatever and they run off with your money AND subsequently, the VA money?
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Excellent insight...Normally the VA scrutinizes Part 141 schools in order to prevent authorizing 141 status to a bankruptcy-bound flight school. I'm sure there are cases where people get taken advantage of. I think a thorough review of the potential FS's history of operations and speaking with current students should ease this concern.

To your point regarding 'paying first and then being reimbursed'...I believe this is the standard practice for FS(s). I've used VA funds for some grad courses and I would pay the difference of what the VA did not cover at the start. According to the Post-9/11 GI Bill site using the Vocational Flight Training option, payments are issued after the training is completed and the school submits your enrollment information to VA.
 
canav08 said:
ughh, Id be very leery of this type of arrangement where you pay first. I don't think that is in the spirit of what the VA intends. The VA pays *the school*!
So what happens when you cut a check up front, the flight school goes belly up or runs into financial issues or whatever and they run off with your money AND subsequently, the VA money? It would not be the first time a flight school up and folds with peoples money. There is a relatively shady flight school in my area that does VA benefits this way and I thought that was an anomaly. Apparently its more common than I thought...

Some schools seem to look at dealing with VA as a burden and dont treat the students all that great as a result. No part of govt is all that fun to deal with but as far as Ive ever heard, the VA GI Bill process is relatively easy and the money always shows up about a month later. As an instructor at a competing school at the same location as a school that takes the GI Bill, Ive seen and heard of alot of students being treated poorly.

Make sure you set your expectations in advance and go in with a clear understanding of how its all gonna work. Stay on them and make sure your money is used wisely. I would stay far away of any "you may me first then the VA pays me and I reimburse you" arrangement. I'm not sure that the VA would be all that happy if they found out that is how its being done. Don't even know that it is legal for them to do. I have known some pretty solid students who tell me stories of being treated like crap while using their benefits and, at worst, some felt as though they were being milked for the VA $ while being treated like second class citizens when compared to the trust funded 16 year olds.

I'm just rambling about what I have heard, I'm not saying don't use the money, the VA is actually the easiest link to deal with in the chain.

As an alternative, I have seen people enroll in a degree program for something, whether they "need" a degree (or an additional degree) or not just to collect the BAH. You then take the BAH, which is much more per year than what they give you for flight training, and knock out whatever ratings you want part 61 and still have money left over to play around with. Of course you still have to make the time to do the coursework for whatever degree you are doing but that can be easy, depending. Just some thoughts.
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I was pretty sure American Flyers was not going to fold in the 10 days I was there. It was rather annoying though to find out they needed payment up front. I was able to provide but some might not have been able to.

As far as being illegal it must not have been. I called the VA and talked with them about it at that time. Apparently it happens more often than not. The VA paid me with no questions asked.
 
It's standard policy for flight training at 141 schools, for the student to pay up front and VA reimburses later. It's different that college programs where the student is alloted X number dollars for tuition / housing stipend per month.
 
Interesting, I was just talking to a kid this morning who is finishing up commercial under the VA and the school lets him run up a bill each month and then submits to the VA monthly. The VA sends a statement to him monthly showing all hrs broken down by month and also pays the school each month.

I know alot of veterans who cant afford the money up front, hell, I dont think Id be able to swing the money upfront and Im not dirt poor either. Kind of defeats the purpose of the GI Bill in my opinion.

Either way, Im eager to hear more experiences if any and to the OP, let us know how you make out with the progress!
 
There are three schools in the area here that are part 141 and VA approved. They ALL require payment up front and reimburse you when the VA pays them. I thought it was shady as well and called the VA to ask. They said that it was shady and that the school is not supposed to do it that way. I really liked the third school and spoke to the owner. She basically explained that they all do it that way because a lot of money is spent for the aircraft to fly and that if they didnt get the money up front, the operation cost would be too high day to day. I decided to do it and it has worked out well for me.

Someone asked above, the VA requires that it be a combined instrument and commercial course. You dont have to finish both, but you have to enroll in the combined course.

The school has to submit your enrollment verification, training hours, and cost to the VA. This is normally done at the end of the month. It takes 3-4 weeks for the check to arrive.

Its definitey not in the spirit of what the VA intends, but it seems to work. I'd just make sure that you are attending a reputable and established school. The school I am attending has been in business in the same place for over 25 years. Its very well put together and the owners/instructors are very professional AND personable. All that put together gained my trust and I have said and maintain that I made a good decision by going to this school...even with paying up front.

Hope it all works out for you! I've done a lot of research on the VA benefits and might be able to answer more of your questions. PM me or quote me on here so I see your question and I'll happily answer whatever I can.


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The govt. got tired of paying out to for profit schools that did not graduate the number of students they claimed. Many of them closed.it could be that Too many would be aviators dropped out without finishing for a variety of reasons so now it's you pay now and they pay later. A much better deal for the tax payer who usually gets screwed by having to pick up the tab when things go south. (Like in 2007)
 
Like others have said go to a part 141 school which is VA approved. They are harder to find now but they are still out there. I'm going to CCBC here in Baltimore. All told I'll get about $47,000 for flight training (plus the cost of the two year program). I spent about $7k out of my own pocket because I wanted to start flying early but you really can't beat it.

As for my school, they let students start flying before the VA money comes in so if you go to a good school that shouldn't be an issue (like some others have stated).
 
FLYGUYRY said:
Like others have said go to a part 141 school which is VA approved.
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Yeah...I'm going to start training in the Spring and will more likely than not attend a part 141 school. I live in LA, but will probably train in GA or AZ. I simply don't see the point of spending $75K+ to go to a part 61 in Los Angeles, when I can spend $50K...60% of which the G.I. Bill will cover. There are no part 141 schools in Los Angeles that provide all the instrument rated training. Its reassuring to plan all this out though...and to learn from others experiences.
 
GB403 said:
Yeah...I'm going to start training in the Spring and will more likely than not attend a part 141 school. I live in LA, but will probably train in GA or AZ. I simply don't see the point of spending $75K+ to go to a part 61 in Los Angeles, when I can spend $50K...60% of which the G.I. Bill will cover. There are no part 141 schools in Los Angeles that provide all the instrument rated training. Its reassuring to plan all this out though...and to learn from others experiences.
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You know if you pick a university that has a 2 or 4 year degree program you can get everything paid for by the G.I. Bill right?
 
And just in case you are mixing the two together....the 60% rule is for the Montgomery GI Bill flight training benefits. The Post 9/11 GI Bill pays 100% up to the yearly maximum from August 1 - July 31. Both require that you pay for the Private Pilot Certificate out of pocket first...unless you goto a "institution of higher education" that offers a flight program.

You could definitely get more accomplished by attending a college or university that has a flight program. But you don't have to. You just have to be ok with maxing out your benefits with less training received. I think the limit just went up to $12,500ish per year. Which means for 36 months of benefits, you would get about $37,500 towards your flight training costs before you maxed out your benefits.


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And I could be wring about this but, I think it has to be a part 141 school regardless of if you go post 9/11 or MGIB. It definitely does for post 9/11.

Look at www.theflightschool.com for a flight school in north Georgia that is part 141 and VA approved since you mentioned Georgia.


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Don't know if this was mentioned but it has to be an "VA approved" part 141 school since as we all know, the VA knows better than the FAA what makes a good 141 program.
 
FLYGUYRY said:
You know if you pick a university that has a 2 or 4 year degree program you can get everything paid for by the G.I. Bill right?
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The VA recently stopped funding private pilot training at Palo Alto Community College in San Antonio. The VA will kick in funding for the professional pilot 2 year degree program only for students that start the program with a private pilot certificate. I understand 4 year colleges that offer aviation training still get VA funding for students that start with no certificate but the 2 year colleges not anymore.
 
FLYGUYRY said:
You know if you pick a university that has a 2 or 4 year degree program you can get everything paid for by the G.I. Bill right?
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I have my bachelors degree...At this point I'm concerned about time. I'm in my mid 30's...so I want to just attend a VA approved part 141 flight school and focus strictly on flying. I have the funds and the VA benefits so I just want to work on my aviation skills.
 
SPAJC said:
And just in case you are mixing the two together....the 60% rule is for the Montgomery GI Bill flight training benefits. The Post 9/11 GI Bill pays 100% up to the yearly maximum from August 1 - July 31.
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You are correct. Revised calculations: $12,500ish per academic school. I will used around $25K of benefits....some projected out-of-pocket is $25K for the flight training.
 
GB403 said:
The flight has to be part 141 for either...correct. I will check out the Flight School link you sent. I'm looking at Falcon Aviation Academy also.
http://www.faa-air.com/index.html
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Correct. I've been approved by the VA for Falcon as well. Basically I'd have to pay about 4 grand up front for the ME training. Just haven't had time to head down and get it going.
 
Velocity173 said:
I've been approved by the VA for Falcon as well.
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What's the student-to-pilot ratio at FAA? Are you completing the Airline Professional Pilot program? I assume program is full-time.
Do they have housing?
 
GB403 said:
What's the student-to-pilot ratio at FAA? Are you completing the Airline Professional Pilot program? I assume program is full-time.
Do they have housing?
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I'm just approved for ME / COM add on. No interest in the airline route. No idea on student to pilot ratio. They must have housing because they have Chinese students everywhere.
 
GB403 said:
You paid for ME training and haven't started...is this due to an MEI issue? acft available? weather?
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Nope haven't paid. Just applied for benefits. VA sent back the approval letter. I need to take that letter back to the school and pay up front. Roughly 4K.

Haven't gone back down to start training because I'm trying to take leave in my schedule. I already fly helicopters full time, so I just haven't found a gap where I could get down there.
 
GB403 said:
@Velcoity173...sweet. Thanks for the information. Do you fly the 60, 47, or 64?
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Retired 60. Now fly B407..it's like a real helicopter, only smaller. :D
 
Velocity173 said:
I'm just approved for ME / COM add on. No interest in the airline route. No idea on student to pilot ratio. They must have housing because they have Chinese students everywhere.
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Just an opinion here, but watch out for the schools that have foreign students everywhere...those tend to be money making pilot mills and focus more on quantity of paying students vs. quality of training. China is notorious for sending their pilots here for accelerated training, and pay a premium for it. Just a thought. I'm sure other opinions would disagree, but, thats what I've seen and read.
 
SPAJC said:
foreign students everywhere...those tend to be money making pilot mills
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thanks for your insight...is there any written material on this topic or just perception in the industry.
 
I read an article somewhere about it...maybe in a AOPA magazine. But, it is also general perception. I had the occasion to speak with a flight school owner here who intended to bring Chinese students to our airport once his school was completely up and running. His motivation was purely to turn out all the pilots he could in the shortest amount of time and ship them back to China, collect his cash and move on to the next batch; by his own admission. I've heard the same from several other students who attended similar schools and ultimately switched schools. I've also been strongly cautioned by who I believe to be reputable instructors, that schools like that will take your money and you'll end up with nothing in return. Especially the schools that want you to pay a deposit or keep a certain amount on account with them. I have no problem paying for services that I've received from the school, but I'm not paying in advance for it. A defunct school locally here required that and when they went belly-up, closed the doors with all of the students' money. Never to be seen again. They didn't even pay the instructors what was owed to them. So be careful what you get yourself into. Personally, I would never pay in advance for something like that...especially thousands of dollars.
 
Also, there is a thread in pilot training where the OP is wanting to change schools and prepaid for block time at the current school. Now he is worried that he can't get his money back and will have stay with the school he is at and frustrated with until that money is used up. Look for "frustrated with current flight school" a few down the list. Another reason why I wouldn't prepay....he has valid reasons for wanting to switch schools, but maybe can't because he prepaid. Something to think about...
 
Falcon isn't a fly by night school though. Like ATP professionals, they don't need veteran money. I'd bet they could survive just on international students alone.

We had a local school that closed up shop and took money as well. It was predictable though. It was a part 61 school surviving on AVOTEC money. Once everyone deployed, they closed the doors and ran. Veterans came back from deployment looking to start back up. No such luck.
 
Velocity173 said:
Falcon isn't a fly by night school though. Like ATP professionals, they don't need veteran money. I'd bet they could survive just on international students alone.

We had a local school that closed up shop and took money as well. It was predictable though. It was a part 61 school surviving on AVOTEC money. Once everyone deployed, they closed the doors and ran. Veterans came back from deployment looking to start back up. No such luck.
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You're not in Savannah are you?
 
OverTQ said:
If you're talking about the school there at KSAV, I was one of those vets. Dude took off to the Philippines or something. What a bastard.
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Yep. Rumor was he got picked up for WOFT, they kicked him out, then went to Singapore to be a CFI.

Fortunately I knocked out my instrument FW before deployment. Blocked the aircraft for two weeks straight. Still got away with $1,500 of my remaining AVOTEC money. Just one of the chances you take when you pay up front.
 
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I'm not saying that any one particular school is like that with exception of the places that I have experience with. Just that he needs to watch for it. The school that took off with everyone's money here wasn't a fly by night operation either. It was well established and had been in business for years. You never really know until it happens. Just saying to watch out for it....best you can I guess....
 
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