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jesse

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Jesse
I've been trying to decide where I should fly next. I'm sick of doing the usual cross countries so I finally have found one that looks like fun. I'll probably end up going shortly after Christmas...I guess it depends on the weather..

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KMIC to KGYY to 2P2 to KMIC.. Which works out to 832nm . Kind of a long haul in a rental 150.. So I'll have to save up to do this. I'll probably end up doing it in February...

I'm a little concerned about that big lake..But I really want to see those two airports at the lowest cost.. I'm a pretty strong swimmer though..What's the chance of something going wrong anyways? Slim...Although...what frequency can I get coast guard on?

Anyone ever been to either of those airports? Any good resturants?
 
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I wouldn't choose to spend very much time out of gliding distance of shore in a rented 152. You're likely to survive the ditching, but how long will you survive in Lake Michigan in February without a full survival suit? I'd guess less than an hour.

It looks like you'd add about 10% distance or less to that leg if you stayed within gliding distance of the shore. To me, that's worth the extra couple weeks of saving up.

Chris
 
Flying beyond glide distance is bad Dude, bad, BAD!
Remember 121.5 Fx.
Take floatation devices.
 
Jesse - you're forgetting that all planes have engine failures over water!
 
redcloud said:
How do airplanes know they are flying over water?

Scott
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Because they can hear their engines running slightly rougher over water...
 
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...SNIP...I'm a little concerned about that big lake..But I really want to see those two airports at the lowest cost.. I'm a pretty strong swimmer though..What's the chance of something going wrong anyways? Slim...Although...what frequency can I get coast guard on?
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You should be alot concerned about the big lake. Stay closer to shore, obtain and wear a MUSTANG and a personal flotation device (http://www.mustangsurvival.com/), get flight following, and keep 121.5.
The biggest thing I can think of is with that distance, your weather is likely to change while you're in the air. You need to stay on top of it.
 
cwyckham said:
I'd guess less than an hour.
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MUCH less than an hour.

Without thermal protection, your ability to move usefully (aka swim) would be measured in minutes, not hours. Depending on water temperature, it could indeed be in the single digits if you are not wearing protective clothing. That's why single-engine plane ferry pilots wear a Gumby Suit when crossing the Atlantic.

-Skip
 
...and his Pony Pal, Pokey.
 
jangell said:
I'm a little concerned about that big lake..But I really want to see those two airports at the lowest cost.. I'm a pretty strong swimmer though..What's the chance of something going wrong anyways? Slim...Although...what frequency can I get coast guard on?
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Jesse... While it's true that the plane doesn't know it's flying over water, if you end up in the water in February you are completely screwed. You will be dead in less than 10 minutes, and I would imagine that it's one of the most unpleasant possible ways to die.

One of the planes in my logbook went into Lake Michigan in April of 2005. Pilot declared emergency with Milwaukee Approach, who immediately contacted the local Coast Guard base. Boats were moving out before the plane hit the water. The plane went in about five miles from shore. The pilot was not injured in the ditching, and called 911 afterwards. A few minutes later, the last thing on the 911 tape is a muffled "help" as the plane sinks and the pilot gets dunked into the cold water.

The pilot was a competitive swimmer. He didn't make it. From what I understand, the coast guard boats had a max speed of 22 knots, so even with a GPS-enabled PLB to provide his exact location they probably would have found a human popsicle anyway. :(

If anyone needs this driven home any more, I do have both ATC and 911 recordings. IMHO, you can go direct over Green Bay (the water, not the city or the airport) as depicted, 10,000 feet should keep you within easy gliding distance the whole time. Spiral down (fun maneuver anyway :yes:) and you won't add much, if any, flight time.

Anyone ever been to either of those airports? Any good resturants?
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I went to 2P2 on the way up to 6Y9 for Labor Day weekend. Not much right at the airport. Door County is kind of a summer place, I'd guess it's probably fairly dead in the winter. Call ahead!

Never been to GYY, only talked to the tower on the way overhead.
 
Jesse,
Stop and see me at 1C5 and I'll treat you to dinner. Then head up the west side of the ORD airspace. Avoid the Lake in February! I've done overwater to the Bahamas, but I wouldn't touch the lake in the winter. There's a good chance of icing over the lake, too!
 
If the lake is frozen over, no worries. If not, get yourself a survival suit, you can find them for about $250 if you shop around, just wear it to the waist and leave the rest draped over the seat behind you so you can finish slipping into it while you glide in. Your survival time in Lake Mich is minutes in Feb without one. Skirting the shoreline would be a much wiser approarch though and wouldn't add too much to your trip. Do a realistic risk/benefit analysis. If I'm not mistaken, you are in "time building" mode, so there is no real benefit to you taking the quickest shortest route, and the required safety gear for that flight would overshadow the cost of the increased distance (although you would then own the peice of equipment for future use). Unless the lake is frozen nicely, if you ditch in without the suit, you will die, no ifs ands or buts, you will die. The suit will allow time for rescue, and you know well enough to be on flight following so they can launch the helo before you're even in the drink. If it is frozen over, you're in much better shape. If they are breaking ice along the route for shipping traffic and you have to go in, make sure you stay a mile or more away from the channel. The fractures can run a long way, and winds can cause the ice sheets to buckle and ride up which can cause a nice forced landing to go quickly out of inertial balance. Even if the lake is frozen you want the suit.

So if you really think about it, there is nothing really in favor of flying over the lake lengthwise. While the odds of a well maintained plane having a catastrophic failure on this flight would be low, there is no benefit to justify taking the risk.
 
Henning said:
If the lake is frozen over, no worries.
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I have never known Lake Michigan to freeze completely over, so count on getting wet if you go down in it.

Also, in addition to flight following, if you DO cross the lake, consider using the Lake Reporting Service. See AIM 4-1-20. Hazardous Area Reporting Service section (e).
 
I think i asked the question of does lake michigan freeze over and there were two total freezes on record, on in the 70s and another a long time before that. I think that it was mentioned that it often ices up near shore but stays open in the middle.
 
Heck Jess that XC is only 28nm shorter that the trip one way from KMIC to KLOM for the Wings Fly BQ in May. Find a right seater and split the trip out here.
 
Henning is wise I agree with his post. Now heres a question for Henning. How does a lake freeze from the center out or from the shoreline in?

The center is deeper thus colder but the water near the shoreline being shallower and perhaps warmer would still freeze below 32F correct. So if the water is all below 32F wouldn't the shoreline offer thicker ice due to it being shallower?

Next question, How long will those gumby ( survival suites) keep you going in such conditions, I know its longer than jeans and a down jacket but how long is longer? Also those suits look kind of bulky are they designed for you just to float and wait to be picked up?
 
water is funny. most all fluids becomes less dense as temperature increases, so its warmer on the top and cooler at the bottom. Water does this too, the density goes up but only until it gets to about 3 degC. then the density starts to go back down. so 0 degC will actually "float" on top of 1 degC water. basically as the temp gets below 3 degC the lake "turns" which basically means the water that was on the top goes to the bottom and vice versa. as the temp gets lower, the water actually gets warmer as you go down, from 0 to 3 degC. This is why lakes/rivers freeze from the top down instead of the bottom up. if they didnt do this, all marine life would die every winter. From what ive heard, with a lake of Michigan's depth, the water at the bottom is always 3 degC as it is too deep to get any sunlight to warm up and it isnt spring fed. so there is the basic physics lesson. It would freeze at the edges first because it is shallower so all the 1, 2, and 3 degC water would flow downhill to the center, leaving just the really cold stuff at the edges. Of course when things warm up the 4, 5, 6, and so on degC water goes out to the edges which is why the shore would have warmer water than the center.
 
yea i remember something from freshman physics. Im glad you understood, I was hoping you would.
 
tonycondon said:
From what ive heard, with a lake of Michigan's depth, the water at the bottom is always 3 degC as it is too deep to get any sunlight to warm up and it isnt spring fed. so there is the basic physics lesson.
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"The lake it is said never gives up her dead when the skies of november turn gloomy" - Gordon Lightfoot, Ballad of the Edmund Fitzgerald.

Lake Superior is deeper. Bodies that sink down there are effectively refrigerated and don't decay. Without decay, there is no production of gasses that float the corpse. Creepy...
 
oh god thanks frank, now i have gordon lightfoot stuck in my head
 
How about the Hudson VFR corridor?
 
Anthony said:
How about the Hudson VFR corridor?
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Oh you'll turn up alright even if ya don't make it to shore. Of course it may be somewhere on Fire Island but you'll turn up.
 
AdamZ said:
Henning is wise I agree with his post. Now heres a question for Henning. How does a lake freeze from the center out or from the shoreline in?

The center is deeper thus colder but the water near the shoreline being shallower and perhaps warmer would still freeze below 32F correct. So if the water is all below 32F wouldn't the shoreline offer thicker ice due to it being shallower?

Next question, How long will those gumby ( survival suites) keep you going in such conditions, I know its longer than jeans and a down jacket but how long is longer? Also those suits look kind of bulky are they designed for you just to float and wait to be picked up?
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The water will freeze from the shoreline towards the center. The lake being deeper is the key to this as the temprature is more stable deep and convection will keep it from freezing.

I was in the water in the Gulf of Alaska for 45 minutes and was reasonably comfortable. Exactly how long I don't know, but would figure a good day. Frostbite on the face would be an issue though.
 
Henning said:
I was in the water in the Gulf of Alaska for 45 minutes and was reasonably comfortable. Exactly how long I don't know, but would figure a good day. Frostbite on the face would be an issue though.
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Good lord, man. Just when I think I've heard about all of your adventures...here comes another. :hairraise:
 
FlyNE said:
Good lord, man. Just when I think I've heard about all of your adventures...here comes another. :hairraise:
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An there was this babe with him in the water and......:)
 
Anthony said:
An there was this babe with him in the water and......:)
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Nope, one other scruffy dude who was working the deck with me, this was 20 years ago. Captain went down with the boat (it went down fast). I blame the dudes in DC. They set up the fisheries so you worked them on calendar days rather than so many days a month so you could pick the weather. Luckily we were all woking a long trawl line so the boat next to us saw it happen. It was so rough, it still took 45 minutes. The babe (the reason I took the job) was working as the US fish cop on the Soviet factory ship we were all selling our loads to.
 
tonycondon said:
From what ive heard, with a lake of Michigan's depth, the water at the bottom is always 3 degC as it is too deep to get any sunlight to warm up and it isnt spring fed. so there is the basic physics lesson.
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I'm not sure what the temp is at the bottom of LM, but it is cold. I would expect that it's pretty close to the average temperature for the past few years and that should mean the bottom of the northen end is cooler than the bottom towards the south end. The same thing is true of underground waterbodies and caverns, and the further you go south the warmer the underground is.
 
tonycondon said:
oh god thanks frank, now i have gordon lightfoot stuck in my head
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Beats the heck out of a commercial jingle though. I always liked Gordon's style.
 
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