Friend of a friend crashed a Diamond

dennyleeb

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A close friend of mine has a buddy who we always talk about that we should meet that wrecked a da40 on 8/15/11. First please pray for him and his family. This guy was a high time commercial pilot but I can not figure out what he was thinking. He was taking off from a 1700ft grass strip with his wife and child yesterday and could not gain enough altitude to clear power lines and trees. I looked up the performance on da40 it was 1700ft needed to clear a 50 ft obstacle. This was from grass.
 
Crud I hate when you hear the family was involved.:(

yeah 100%


They are saying the son is doing well and his wife has had her condition upgraded. He is fighting and will hopefully recover soon as well.
 
glad to hear conditions are improving - in my prayers
 
Gotta feel for the guy, especially since the same thing could easily have happened to yours truly. Hope they can patch him up.
 
A grim reminder never to bet your life (no less anyone else's) on a Part 23 aircraft achieving book performance on takeoff, especially on grass where there are so many variables which cannot be accounted for in the book numbers. A lot of folks scoff at my 50% safety factor for takeoff (minimum runway length of 150% of the 50-foot obstacle takeoff distance), but it's served me well over the years, and I've never really regretted passing on the fields which didn't meet that criterion.
 
Interestingly, I had read the NTSB report this morning before seeing this post (now I can't find it). IIRC the report said the grass field was ~1100 feet.
 
Interestingly, I had read the NTSB report this morning before seeing this post (now I can't find it). IIRC the report said the grass field was ~1100 feet.

yeah it is hard to imagine what he was thinking
many of my friends knew them and now are even more nervous about flying, they think it was the "small plane" that caused it, I don't have the heart to tell them otherwise
 
Was the DA40 based at that grass strip? If not, had he flown out of there before?
 
The preliminary is here.
According to a Federal Aviation Administration inspector, the grass strip was 1,133 feet in length, oriented east and west, and had an approximate one percent upslope. The accident airplanes left wing impacted a tree branch 1,150 feet from west of the departure end of the runway.
So, the impact point was about 2300 feet from the approach end of the runway, but no way to know where the pilot started the takeoff roll.

The DA40 POH says the ground roll is about 1000 feet, assuming 2300 lb GW (1650 lb EW, 30 gallons of fuel, 400 lb of people and baggage), 500 PA, and zero wind. The allowance for grass is "at least 20%," pushing the ground roll to at least 1200 feet. In addition, ground roll increases at least 10% for each 2% upslope, so let's add another 5% and we have at least 1260 ground roll. The field was only 1133 feet long, so even using the book numbers with no safety factor, they appeared to have been at least 130 feet short of enough runway to get airborne regardless of obstructions.

In addition, climb distance from liftoff to a 50-foot obstacle is another 400 feet, giving just about the 1700-foot distance Denny gave above. The POH says:
WARNING

For a safe take-off the available runway must be at least equal to the takeoff distance over a 50 ft (15 m) obstacle.
Emphasis on "must" rather than "should be" or "is recommended." Further, as this was just an "open field," not a real runway, "uneven terrain and in particular tufts of grass can...lead to a considerable increase in the takeoff distance." In this plane, on that day, with that load, all things considered, my personal safety factor would have been at least 150% of the computed 1660 feet, or about 2500 feet of usable runway surface, and even then, I would have needed an on-site confirmation of the condition of the surface. IOW, I would not have landed there in the first place, no less attempted a takeoff if an emergency had cause me to land there.

This sort of thing is a big issue for me as the AYA Safety Director, because we've had a long history of folks trying to operate AA-1x's out of short, often grass fields on hot summer days at high DA's -- unsuccessfully. That's why I push that 150% safety margin, and read reports like this one with great sadness and concern that there's something we're not doing right regarding teaching pilots about the issues surrounding short and soft field operations.

And it isn't helped when someone says only an incompetent pilot can't get a plane to make book performance, which is something I've heard said too often over the years.
 
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yeah it is hard to imagine what he was thinking
many of my friends knew them and now are even more nervous about flying, they think it was the "small plane" that caused it, I don't have the heart to tell them otherwise
If you don't clue your friends in they'll continue to hold their false perceptions of GA. More importantly, perhaps the real cause won't be revealed which can lead to further misperceptions which may lead to injury or death. I say nip it in the bud.

I was involved in a swift water rescue with my neighbor who was a fireman. Because of his inexperience he almost drowned. A couple days later I scolded him for getting over his head by falsely claiming a skill level he did not have. Yeah, I got big brownie points for that but you know what...he went out and took advantage of some advanced training and he attributed that to the challenge I presented.
 
See the pond to the east of the highway? That's where they ended up, on the road next to that pond, facing east. You can see the airstrip too--they didn't go far.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&l...35258&sspn=0.006295,0.006295&vpsrc=6&t=h&z=17

Yeeeeikes! :yikes:

Here's the street view of the "strip" they tried to take off from:

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&l...=WJ6kvcL2GYwy_D-InrtFnA&cbp=12,273.98,,0,-9.4

Not only is the grass <1200 feet, it's got those power lines right at the end. :frown2:

(Good find, Troy - You can see the fence segment from the pic in one news article, and the angle on the pond from the other article.)
 
I've recently come to thinking of things like this as being completely unsurprising, for one reason: Flying is incrementally more difficult than driving, and so the training is also incrementally more difficult. Given that the vast majority of drivers are terrible at driving, I don't see any reason to believe that the vast majority of pilots would, on average, be better than terrible.

I'm not surprised by someone taking off with clear and obvious evidence that the takeoff isn't possible. I'm not surprised by people taking off right after an obvious prop strike. It shows a lack of judgement (unlike, for example, running out of fuel - a stupid mistake, but a mistake nevertheless).

The sad truth is that this is going to continue as long as people who are quite frankly terrible at whatever they are doing can continue doing it. We haven't found a way (nor desire) to ban terrible drivers, and I doubt that we can (nor want to) ban terrible pilots, either. In both cases, we'd have to ban 99% of them - maybe slightly less than 99% in the case of pilots, but it's still a majority IMO.
 
I'm not surprised by someone taking off with clear and obvious evidence that the takeoff isn't possible. I'm not surprised by people taking off right after an obvious prop strike. It shows a lack of judgement (unlike, for example, running out of fuel - a stupid mistake, but a mistake nevertheless).

How is running out of fuel not bad judgement? :dunno:
 
The DA40 POH says the ground roll is about 1000 feet, assuming 2300 lb GW (1650 lb EW, 30 gallons of fuel, 400 lb of people and baggage), 500 PA, and zero wind. The allowance for grass is "at least 20%," pushing the ground roll to at least 1200 feet. In addition, ground roll increases at least 10% for each 2% upslope, so let's add another 5% and we have at least 1260 ground roll. The field was only 1133 feet long, so even using the book numbers with no safety factor, they appeared to have been at least 130 feet short of enough runway to get airborne regardless of obstructions.

More details:

1) The plane one serial number before it (which I believe is Gary's) has an empty weight of 1713. Assuming he took off from Cambridge with full fuel, he'd have about 23 gallons remaining - 1851 lb. With two FAA-standard adults and a 50-lb kid, 2261 lb. So, pretty light, but Ron's pretty much on that number (2300) above. (MGW = 2535 lb.)

2) DA was ~2,300 feet at the time.

3) Ground roll for level, paved, proper configuration, and the above conditions looks to be about 1000 feet, and 1450 over a 50-foot obstacle.

4) The POH states:

- Grass up to 5 cm (2 in) long: 10 % increase in take-off roll.
- Grass 5 to 10 cm (2 to 4 in) long: 15 % increase in take-off
roll.
- Grass longer than 10 cm (4 in): at least 25 % increase in
take-off roll.
- Grass longer than 25 cm (10 in): take-off should not be
attempted.

So... 4 inches isn't really that long as far as grass goes. So now we're up to 1250/1613. Add 10% more if the grass is wet, 5% for the upslope, etc.

The POH says:

WARNING

For a safe take-off the available runway must be at least equal to the takeoff distance over a 50 ft (15 m) obstacle.

Emphasis on "must" rather than "should be" or "is recommended."

Actually, the most current revision of the POH (Rev. 8, Dec. 2010 - The one you linked to, Ron, is Rev 5) states it this way:

CAUTION
For a safe take-off the take-off run available (TORA) should be at least equal to the take-off distance over a 50 ft (15 m) obstacle.

So, not quite as emphatic, but still.

Further, as this was just an "open field," not a real runway,

I'm starting to doubt that. Just southwest of where the plane came to rest is Lincoln Farm Airport (21KY), and the accident site is almost straight out from runway 3 which is listed as 1,700x60 turf (no condition listed). Airnav does have a picture of it.

The NTSB report does say "an open field," and "oriented east-west" but I can't imagine why the pilot would have departed from an 1,133-foot open field that's right next to an airport with a 1,700 foot runway. :dunno:
 
it was out of the airport (lincoln farm)
 
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