Formula to calculate descent

HPNPilot1200

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Jason
My brain is fried and I was wondering if anyone could post the forumla and/or how to calculate how far out (in miles) to start a descent at a given rate per minute descent at a specified speed to reach either the airport or a specified distance from the airport. In addition to that, I'd also like to know how long it would take to make that descent and when to start it.

...how about that backwards as well: Start a descent at X miles from the airport and calculate the FPM required to make the descent either with or without a specified time.

I sure do like hitting the VNAV function on the GPS, but I'd like to learn the mathmatical way as well ;)

Thanks for any help,

Jason
 
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i usually start me desent around 5 miles out, not sure why but seem to work for me
Dave
 
Great Question Jason!

There are several ways to do it and it can depend on the aircraft you're flying and of course you're ground speed. Here are some ways to calculate a nice 3.0 degree descent.


Now in the Turbines and the Jets like the Excel and the CE-750 (citaiton X) we use the FMS and back it up in our head with a rough calculation. Heres that calculation.

You can take how much altitude you need to loose for instance 30,000ft is what we need to loose, drop the three zeros to 30 and mulitply that times 3.0 for 3 degs and that gives us 90. Now lets add 10 miles to that 90 for fudge factor including G.S. changes and obviously we don't want to hit our target alt right over the airport so lets add 5 miles to that b/c we'd like to be there at least 5 miles from destination so thats about 105 miles out that we need to start down at around 2,000ft/min. Another good rule of thumb is to be 30 miles out at 10,000ft.

Now that calculation is for aircraft that typically do over 250kts and fly in the Flight Levels but you can adapt that to 172s and smaller aircraft provided you have some DME on board.

Heres how to get a rough estimate:

For this example we'll use some constants:

500ft/min descent
100kts g.s. (now this will obviously change but I'll show you how to deal with that)

Ok lets say you're at 8000ft and the field elevation is 1,000ft so we'll subtact those and get 7,000ft you need to loose. So drop all the zeros if you are below 10,000ft to get 7.

Now take 7 and multiply that by 3, (for the 3 deg G.S.) 7x3 gives us 21, thats appx. 21 miles out you need to start down at 500ft/min and 100kts g.s. Now lets add some mileage to that to account for your G.S. increasing and the fact that you want to be at pattern altitude a few miles out from the airport so how about 10 miles to that to give us 31 miles out you need to start down at 500ft/min. That extra 10 miles we added will account for your transition to 500ft/min and your level off and your increasing ground speed.

Heres the math behind that:

8000ft-1000ft=7,000ft
7000ft/500ft/min = 14mins @100kts G.S.
100kts G.S./60mins=1.6miles/min you are traveling
1.6x14=22.4 miles out to start the descent

You can also check yourself as you come down. For instance when you are passing through 6000ft you have 5,000ft more to loose so:
5x3=15 (miles to go) and you are already established in the descent so you should be close to half way to your target altitude of 1,000ft.
Now check that with your DME in the aircraft or your GPS and you should be pretty close to that 15miles out at 5000ft.

Making sense? I hope it helps. Like I said its a ROUGH estimate but once you get used to it, it can work quite well. You can use it to check the GPS VNAV. Again you will see some variance due to G.S. changes but thats why we add that 10mile fudge factor which may be a bit much for the small planes but you can experiment with it!

Hope that helps!
 
Bones said:
Great Question Jason!

There are several ways to do it and it can depend on the aircraft you're flying and of course you're ground speed. Here are some ways to calculate a nice 3.0 degree descent.


Now in the Turbines and the Jets like the Excel and the CE-750 (citaiton X) we use the FMS and back it up in our head with a rough calculation. Heres that calculation.

You can take how much altitude you need to loose for instance 30,000ft is what we need to loose, drop the three zeros to 30 and mulitply that times 3.0 for 3 degs and that gives us 90. Now lets add 10 miles to that 90 for fudge factor including G.S. changes and obviously we don't want to hit our target alt right over the airport so lets add 5 miles to that b/c we'd like to be there at least 5 miles from destination so thats about 105 miles out that we need to start down at around 2,000ft/min. Another good rule of thumb is to be 30 miles out at 10,000ft.

Now that calculation is for aircraft that typically do over 250kts and fly in the Flight Levels but you can adapt that to 172s and smaller aircraft provided you have some DME on board.

Heres how to get a rough estimate:

For this example we'll use some constants:

500ft/min descent
100kts g.s. (now this will obviously change but I'll show you how to deal with that)

Ok lets say you're at 8000ft and the field elevation is 1,000ft so we'll subtact those and get 7,000ft you need to loose. So drop all the zeros if you are below 10,000ft to get 7.

Now take 7 and multiply that by 3, (for the 3 deg G.S.) 7x3 gives us 21, thats appx. 21 miles out you need to start down at 500ft/min and 100kts g.s. Now lets add some mileage to that to account for your G.S. increasing and the fact that you want to be at pattern altitude a few miles out from the airport so how about 10 miles to that to give us 31 miles out you need to start down at 500ft/min. That extra 10 miles we added will account for your transition to 500ft/min and your level off and your increasing ground speed.

Heres the math behind that:

8000ft-1000ft=7,000ft
7000ft/500ft/min = 14mins @100kts G.S.
100kts G.S./60mins=1.6miles/min you are traveling
1.6x14=22.4 miles out to start the descent

You can also check yourself as you come down. For instance when you are passing through 6000ft you have 5,000ft more to loose so:
5x3=15 (miles to go) and you are already established in the descent so you should be close to half way to your target altitude of 1,000ft.
Now check that with your DME in the aircraft or your GPS and you should be pretty close to that 15miles out at 5000ft.

Making sense? I hope it helps. Like I said its a ROUGH estimate but once you get used to it, it can work quite well. You can use it to check the GPS VNAV. Again you will see some variance due to G.S. changes but thats why we add that 10mile fudge factor which may be a bit much for the small planes but you can experiment with it!

Hope that helps!
Thanks so much! I found a lot of answers on the website Greg posted, but this cleared up some stuff. My dad has told me how to plug it in on the UNS-1L (C56XL) using VNAV, but it's nice to sit down and see the math behind it.

I heard there is an FMS software glitch on the UNS-1L that restricts you to cross fixes/VOR's,etc/ at a specified altitude (VNAV page) no more than 99nm from the fix. It doesn't allow you to select a number higher than 99. Hopefully Universal will fix it... You ever found that before? Sure would be a pain to have to cross 120 nm west of XXX VOR at FLXXX. :p

Jason
 
Glad it helped Jason. I'm not sure about the UNS-1L we had older models in the Lears and we had our Excel equipped with the Honeywell FMZ to match our X's.

Yeah those crossing restrictions can get tricky and thats where the FMS,or FMZ VNAV functions really come in handy but...garbage in is garbage out and after I put it in I still check it in my head.

When they do throw you a cruve like you mentioned on top of a normal Xing restriction...cross 40 south of Solberg SBJ at FL350 then you have to do some more math but not much. (Your crusing at FL410-350=6000ft=6x3=18miles out from SBJ, but they said 40miles south and you are 120miles south so 40nm + (round 18to20nm=60nm), so 60nm out from SBJ you need to start down to meet the restriction. Might add some fudge to that. But you seem to have the idea. Flight info.com is a great website, used to use it all the time for filing. If you have to go past your fix like u said then you have to note your DME at the time and figure off of that, by adding your restriction to it...and blah blah blah you can play with it on paper if you like but its a matter of adding and subtracting....Just more mental gymnastics....90% of the time it goes in the FMZ or FMS VNAV first! ahahaha But I still have fun checking it in my head on the way down.

How long has your dad been flying the excel? I was in HPN yesterday, looked like you guys had a little snow last week?
 
Bones said:
Glad it helped Jason. I'm not sure about the UNS-1L we had older models in the Lears and we had our Excel equipped with the Honeywell FMZ to match our X's.

Yeah those crossing restrictions can get tricky and thats where the FMS,or FMZ VNAV functions really come in handy but...garbage in is garbage out and after I put it in I still check it in my head.

How long has your dad been flying the excel? I was in HPN yesterday, looked like you guys had a little snow last week?
My dad double checks in his head too. He has been flying the Excel/XLS for about 5 years and flew a BE350 and BE200 for 15 years before that. We did have a little snow last week, but most has melted here (live about 10-20 east/northeast of the field). How about you? How long?

Jason
 
I began flying the Excel and the X in July of '05 prior to that I was in JQF flying Lears and Kingairs. Got a great job back close to home, with great equipment. The X is really a challenge. I like the Excel its a very capable aircraft, only thing i don't like is the "moving tail" you can ask your dad about that....drives me nuts.

Do you have ambitions to have a career in aviation?
 
Used to fly an F90 into DXR you close to Danbury?
 
Bones said:
I began flying the Excel and the X in July of '05 prior to that I was in JQF flying Lears and Kingairs. Got a great job back close to home, with great equipment. The X is really a challenge. I like the Excel its a very capable aircraft, only thing i don't like is the "moving tail" you can ask your dad about that....drives me nuts.

Do you have ambitions to have a career in aviation?
You talking about the vertical stab moving? If so, it moves *so* slow. The Excel and XLS are great aircraft (see my gallery: www.hpnpilot1200.org/gallery/Citation-XL-XLS for some pictures) and the performance is great. For the size, performance, and price, I wouldn't doubt it is one of the most popular and *best* biz jet manufactered. The X I'm sure is a demanding aircraft, but IMHO moves to fast for some to keep up with...an even greater challenge :yes:

I do have an ambition to have a career in aviation and will likely fly, control, or manage a flight department for my career. Many years to wait and wisdom to gain.... :goofy:

Jason
 
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For the leetle planes we fly, it is quite easy to remember 90kts is 1.5nm/min, 120kts 2nm/min, 150kts 2.5nm/min., and then choose your decent rate. 500fpm, then you need 2 minutes per 1000. Of course 1000fpm is 1 minute per 1000 (duh).

Need to loose 8000ft? 24nm at 90, 32nm at 120, 40nm at 150 with a 500fpm decent, etc.
 
Bill Jennings said:
For the leetle planes we fly, it is quite easy to remember 90kts is 1.5nm/min, 120kts 2nm/min, 150kts 2.5nm/min., and then choose your decent rate. 500fpm, then you need 2 minutes per 1000. Of course 1000fpm is 1 minute per 1000 (duh).

Need to loose 8000ft? 24nm at 90, 32nm at 120, 40nm at 150 with a 500fpm decent, etc.

I like to compute the 500 fpm nm/1000 ft altitude loss at cruising TAS for the plane I fly (for me it's 6 nm/1000 ft) and then I either adjust that by subtracting/adding a fudge factor to the distance for headwind/tailwind, or simply adjusting the descent rate -/+ 100 fpm to accomplish the same thing. You don't need to be all that precise because the wind will change as you descend anyway. I also always add in an extra bit of distance to level off and slow down, typically 5nm (or 10 if I'm planning to land straight in from my incoming direction).
 
Shipoke said:
i usually start me desent around 5 miles out, not sure why but seem to work for me
Because you fly very low and very slow? Personally, for VFR ops, I like to be at TPA+500 by 5 miles out, not just starting down.
 
Thanks for all your answers and words of advise all. I attached a document I typed up last night as reference ONLY. Nothing official, but something to stick in the flightbag with the new headset B)

Jason

P.S. I went through flightinfo ROTs and picked and choosed some....I skipped some since I have an electronic E6B I like to calculate certain problems on....and yes, I do carry extra batteries. *Holds up shield and waits for a beating from a wiz wheel user*
 

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Ron Levy said:
Because you fly very low and very slow? Personally, for VFR ops, I like to be at TPA+500 by 5 miles out, not just starting down.

Given that with just a little tailwind, I'm usually screaming along at 200 KTAS in the descent I normally plan to be at TPA 5-7 miles out so I can get slowed before I get close.
 
I have the Garmin 430, and have my ETA on the main page. From there it's just math in the head. I don't worry about how far out I am, I just see how many minutes out I am. I usually do a 700fpm descent. No reason for 700', that's just what I arbitrarily picked. So I take the feet I need to lose/700 and add a minute or two. That puts me at ~TPA 2-4 miles out. If IFR, I just do what ATC tells me.
 
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