Formation in IMC??

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Dear OtA Readers:

Greetings from the first full day of the big show at Oshkosh AirVenture 2006.

I departed Akron, NY (9G3) yesterday morning at 14Z along with my two wingmen, Dan Maloney in his RV-4 and Mark Croce in his Cirrus SR22. I filed an IFR plan, flight of three, Oshkosh (KOSH) direct. My crew consisted of FO Shawn Maloney and two passengers, daughter Erica, age 16 and boyfriend Blake, also age 16. Dan's passenger was Tom King, age 16, and Mark's passengers were Liz King and Greg Barnhard, age 16.

Our three aircraft lifted off one right after another into the cool eastern skies and joined up for our 3.5 hour formation flight at a planned altitude of 10,000 feet.

Our route of flight took us along the northern shoreline of Lake Erie, London, Ontario, then over the southern tip of Lake Huron, over central Michigan to Saginaw, then Victor 26 over Lake Michigan at its midpoint to just south of Greenbay, Wisconsin, then director to KOSH.

SR22 pilot, Mark Croce, was new to formation flying so it took us a bit longer to form up at a mutually acceptable airspeed. He had to dial his power back to about 55% to enable my T-210 to keep up. Dan had no trouble keeping his RV-4 in the pack.

The only wrinkle in the flight occurred as we traversed through about 10 miles of solid stratiform clouds rising well above our 10,000' cruising altitude. We immediately lost visual contact with each other despite our otherwise close proximity. I was in the lead and held my heading, airspeed, and altitude. We instructed Mark to back off his power to put some spacing between he and me. Dan rolled right for the same reason.

Obviously, formation flying in the clouds requires close coordination. Mine was the only aircraft with transponder on and squawking altitude. Dan and Mark's transponders were turned off. Our hope was to break back out into the clear before having to notify ATC that we were about to break formation. To do this would have required new IFR flight plans for Dan and Mark. Without an IFR reservation slot into KOSH, they would have had to either land some place else, or cancel and land with the conga line of VFR arrivals.

Fortunately, it didn't take long before we were in the clear and back in formation to Oshkosh.

Just before crossing the 80 mile wide span of Lake Michigan, Dan gave us a standard military ditching briefing. If one of us had to drop into the lake, one of the other of us would circle low over the ditched aircraft while the other would circle high to relay position information to search and rescue. Fortunately, it was just a briefing! Needless to say, we kept a close eye on the position of boats along our route of flight over the lake.

About 5 miles from reaching the western shoreline of Lake Michigan, Minneapolis Center called and lowered us to 8,000 feet in preparation for our arrival into KOSH. We tightened our formation with me, the slowest of the three airplanes in the lead, followed by Mark in the Cirrus, and Dan in his RV-4. Our plan was to hang on to our IFR clearance all the way to the runway. This would preclude us from from following the circuitous VFR arrival route over RIPON and FISK. This work out just as planned.

Our final approach segment to the VOR/GPS Runway 9 approach was strangely quiet. We seemed to be three of only a handful of arrivals to KOSH despite this being just one day before the actual show start. We learned, sadly, that the airport had been closed for nearly two hours immediately prior to our arrival. The reason was the crash of a two seat aircraft just short of the Runway 9 threshold. The pilot apparently entered a stall followed by a unrecoverable spin. Both died in the accident.

The three of us touched down simulatenously with me landing long, Mark landing midfield, and Dan landing short. Mark and I rolled off into the general aviation parking area while Dan taxiied over to the homebuilt parking area.

EAA 46 president Jim Cavanaugh drove over in his van and picked us all up for our brief ride over to our camping area. We spent the afternoon meeting and talking with the 30 or so other EAA 46 members who had arrived several days earlier. Our kids connected with kids that they hadn't seen since this time last year.

After a couple of cold ones, be dedicated ourselves to setting up tents and arranging air mattresses and sleeping bags. By this time, dinner was being prepared John and Carol, long time EAA 46 members.

After dinner, the hangar stories were getting taller and more unbelievable as the chilly wine took the edge off of the humid, warm air. Most of us didn't get into the tents until well after mid-night.

The night passed uneventfully with light sprinkles taking the humidity out of the air. The tents remained comfortably cool right through the next morning (this morning).

Most of us awoke around 7am and headed right for our circus tent where customed ordered breakfast orders were being taken. We all continued to chat, then one by one we showered, shaved, and eventually made our way over to the show.

Our first stop was Exhibition Hall B where we spent the cool hours of the morning looking over the latest in A/C equipment. With a whole week still ahead of us, we took our time visiting with each vendor of the first of five large exhibition halls of vendors. From there, we walked up through AeroShell Square and the flight line.

The first day at Oshkosh is always the best. Everybody is so friendly and enthused. There is a special sense of excitement in the air. So much to see and even with a full week here, there seems to be so little time.

It is now 1920Z, the weather is clear with light breezes. Temperature is in the mid-80s. My plan is to now return to the flight line for the first of six upcoming airshows, followed by a Beach Boys concert on the flight line at 6pm local.

After that, we will all return to the campsite and likely join in with a large contingent of South Africans who are known for their entertaining parties.

I enjoy sharing these experiences with my OTA readers. I'll keep you posted throughout the week. I hope you enjoy them!

And remember, the current OTA issue can always be found at http://overtheairwaves.com . Please be sure to bookmark that as a favorite.

Fly safe,

Bob Miller, ATP, CFII
Remote from Oshkosh Airventure
 
Yea that is one of the things several people have had issue with Bob in the past. Others included taking students out into known ice conditions in non known ice airplanes. Apparently it works well for him, im not quite that intense...

I do enjoy his biweekly write ups, lots of good stuff in there.
 
Good God Almighty! Dissimilar formation flying in IMC with untrained wingmen, and operating a formation in IMC without staying in sight or telling ATC that there was a lost wingman. That ain't the way it's done, folks!
 
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Are there any online resources for formation flying training? Self study is no replacement for approved training courses in this kind of flying, but it would be interesting to read up on the right way to do this, especially to counter the offhand and cavalier example related in post 1 above.
 
Not briefing the 'outs' before the flight for IMC is a problem!

Not sure what online resources there are for formation training Greg. All of our training starts with the T-34 formation manual, a good long classroom session and then a safety pilot for the first few flights.
 
Bob Miller said:
Our kids connected with kids that they hadn't seen since this time last year.

Good chance this will be the last time they 'connect' flying with this d00d.
 
The place to start is the T-34 Formation Flight Manual along with the Darton video "Formation Flying - The Art." It's $70 for the two from the T-34 Association. Beyond that, the type groups have their own more specific formation flight materials. The Grumman/FFI materials are available on the TigerOneFormation Yahoo group site -- you must register for the group to get them.
 
Ron Levy said:
Good God Almighty! Dissimilar formation flying in IMC with untrained wingmen, and operating a formation in IMC without staying in sight or telling ATC that there was a lost wingman. That ain't the way it's done, folks!
Ron, what is the correct procedure when aircraft in formation lose contact in IMC? What happens after you advise ATC? Will they issue separate clearances for each aircraft at that point?
 
Nav8tor said:
Ron, what is the correct procedure when aircraft in formation lose contact in IMC? What happens after you advise ATC? Will they issue separate clearances for each aircraft at that point?
The procedure is somewhat complicated, based on the actual formation and the attitude the formation is in when it happens. This is established in the formation standards document for the governing agency. But the general idea is that the aircraft which loses sight of the aircraft off which it is supposed to flying formation must turn away from the formation at a specified bank angle, achieve a specified heading change, and maintain that offset heading for a specified time before returning to the original course. Upon the wingman's announcement that he's gone lost, the formation leader is responsible for arranging either a rejoin or a separate clearance for the detached element.

Note also that in a formation of more than two, the lost element could be one, two, or three aircraft, depending on the formation at the time (say, echelon versus fingertip) and who goes missing (say, four losing three in fingertip versus two losing lead in echelon). Make the formation more than the standard four, and it gets even more complicated. That's why you either fly standard formations with pilots trained and qualified for IMC formation flying (which includes knowing the standard lost wingman procedures) or you brief all the possible contingencies before you walk out to the airplanes, something which, by the telling of this story, didn't happen with Mr. Miller's flight.

As for what happens after you advise ATC, it all depends on the situation. If it's a single wingman of a flight of F-15's in decent vis, he might do a radar trail rejoin to reenter the formation. If it's an element off a 4-ship of Grumman AA-5x's in serious goo, you probably need to get a separate clearance and meet on the ground at the destination. In any event, a lost wingman is a true emergency, since you now have aircraft operating with less than standard separation but without the means to see and avoid each other -- something which Mr. Miller's telling of the story suggests they did not understand or they would have been hollering for assistance and coordination with ATC immediately.
 
Thanks, Ron. Interesting stuff.

Ron Levy said:
... the formation leader is responsible for arranging either a rejoin or a separate clearance for the detached element.
Is a rejoin possible in IMC?

Another question. How likely is it to lose sight of the lead aircraft if the following pilots maintain their positions while in IMC?
 
Nav8tor said:
Thanks, Ron. Interesting stuff.


Is a rejoin possible in IMC?

Another question. How likely is it to lose sight of the lead aircraft if the following pilots maintain their positions while in IMC?

Possible? For us GA types, the answer should be NO. It's just not worth it. Especially if you're talking the standard break/rejoin. You can't rejoin something you can't see. :)

If you're good at station keeping, you should be able to keep sight of lead (or 2, or 3, etc). It does help if lead's aircraft isn't white/grey.

Bottom line is that when you're not flying something military or a warbird, you're riding that ship down if you start exchanging paint.
 
Dear Moron,

Please get out of aviation before you drive my insurance rates up (and take the unwitting along with your on your trek into eternity). Ahh, ATP too eh? I'll listen for that name on my commercial flights and be sure to GET OFF as soon as I hear it. :no:
 
Nav8tor said:
Thanks, Ron. Interesting stuff.


Is a rejoin possible in IMC?

Another question. How likely is it to lose sight of the lead aircraft if the following pilots maintain their positions while in IMC?

I'm reminded of the story about the Thunderbirds...must have been a year or two ago...where they lost their formation in IMC and had trouble reforming. I think they were in the DC area...can't find anything now via Google.

Len
 
Nav8tor said:
Is a rejoin possible in IMC?
Yes -- if you have air-to-air radar. We even had a primitive air-to-air mode in the F-111 which was used solely for this purpose, including getting on the tanker.

Another question. How likely is it to lose sight of the lead aircraft if the following pilots maintain their positions while in IMC?
Depends on conditions and aircraft lighting. I've been in clouds so thick the only thing we could only see the wingtip position/strip lights and maybe a couple of feet of the wing -- add just a bit of turbulence, and "Two's lost wing." OTOH, I've been in stratus clouds where the vis is a hundred feet or more, and the air is smooth, and you can move out a bit for comfort without losing sight of even the wing on the other side of lead. Unfortunately, light planes don't have those nifty fluorescent formation strip lights, so it's a lot harder with only the wingtip position light and maybe the landing light to use to stay in position, especially at night.

Oh, yeah -- a good, smooth lead who knows his/her wing pilots' capabilities and limitations makes a world of difference, too. That's something that takes years of formation flying to develop.
 
In WW2 when the AACorps was ferrying P38's across Greenland Iceland, to the Azores and Ireland, the only ship that was IFR equipped (with a navigator station) was the B17. You can bet the six or so P38's hung right close through thick and thin.

Loss of the formation meant loss of the aircraft- ever try DR over the ocean? Lotsa landmarks, ha ha. Lt. Richard Bong was in the red flight; the green flight became the lost squadron. Re-form up was at specified alititudes- you climbed to the first of the altitudes that was clear, and circled. If you didn't find the squadron, you wnet up to the second. Oxygen was precious. If you could not re-form up, you were on your own to find a landing. Thus the Lost Squadron. Lt. General Arnold needed to get the A/C to Britain one way or the other and he was not going to lose the time disassembling them onto ship and losing them to torpedoes.

Not that I would EVER fly formation even though I had basic training. RBL is absolutely correct. Your wingman (or inverse, your lead) becomes a very trusted person, it's rather like your Office Staff, in my current situation. It takes years and hours and hours. Bong does describe sticking to the B17 through thick and thin....
 
Ron Levy said:
Yes -- if you have air-to-air radar. We even had a primitive air-to-air mode in the F-111 which was used solely for this purpose, including getting on the tanker.

Was that Radar or Tacan based? I remember reading about a collision between a jet fighter and a Baron where the jet used his air to air radar to perform a close range intercept in IMC (against regulations) and IIRC the report made it quite clear that this couldn't be done unless visual contact was made at something like half a mile.
 
Saw a Hornet right off the wing of a 747 both ascend together into thick overcast IMC in Seattle's Bravo airspace once and never saw them again.
 
lancefisher said:
Was that Radar or Tacan based?
We used both radar and A/A TACAN.

I remember reading about a collision between a jet fighter and a Baron where the jet used his air to air radar to perform a close range intercept in IMC (against regulations) and IIRC the report made it quite clear that this couldn't be done unless visual contact was made at something like half a mile.
I'm familiar with the accident. Yes, if you try an tail-chase intercept on a target going 170 KTAS in a plane going half again that fast, and the intercepted target turns into the interceptor as the interceptor, unaware that the target is initiating a turn, breaks at Rmin to the same side the unknowing interceptee is turning, yes, you can (probably will) have a mid-air collision. That's why IMC rejoins must be accomplished according to proper procedures with all parties operating on the same well-studied page.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
Saw a Hornet right off the wing of a 747 both ascend together into thick overcast IMC in Seattle's Bravo airspace once and never saw them again.

I've been told a number of fighters in WWII would hold VFR on top out in San Francisco until a DC-3 would show up. They'd tuck in under the wing and ride it out until they broke out. A quick wing rock 'adios' and they'd be off.

I've known a few ex military types that weren't IFR current and would fly someone's wing to get on top.

This was also posted on another list a while back:

from another list.. said:
That's weird. Jay Apt and I did a three-ship formation join up. I
departed from Baton Rouge in formation with another airplane (my Be18
and and A-36 on a formation IFR flight plan) and Jay departed from
Pittsburgh in his Be18. We planned a rendezvous over GRR VOR at 9000
feet at 16:30 Zulu. I was on an IFR, "N----- and flight flight plan,"
Jay a VFR (I think). I never questioned whether or not Jay would be at
the rendezvous on time, on altitude--he had docked the Shuttle to Mire
and that was a tad more difficult. The question was whether or not
*N----- and flight* would be there on time. I was lucky. IIRC,
neither of us made a single hold pattern waiting on the other.

ATC seemed quite comfortable with our request and was very helpful in
calling out our respective positions. "Target at 3 O'clock, same
altitude" was one such call.

Grand Rapids approach gave us both vectors for the join up, we did so
and continued Northbound to Cadillac, MI, IFR Flight of Three.
Approaching CAD, we cancelled IFR, because............The two Beech 18s
on the wings of the A-36 made a substantially low pass over Lake
Cadillac, aimed westbound directly over the Sands Motel where a number
of our pals got to hear all 84 of our spark plugs raising hell. We
then initiated a pull-up, tear-drop in formation back the airport to
land.

Two days later, Jay and I departed in the two Be18s on an IFR formation
flight plan to OSH whereupon we touched down still in formation at OSH,
still on our formation IFR. A pic of that landing was on the front
page of the OSH paper the next morning.

Frankly, I'm curious as to what the big deal is.
 
AirBaker said:
Grand Rapids approach gave us both vectors for the join up, we did so
and continued Northbound to Cadillac, MI, IFR Flight of Three.
Approaching CAD, we cancelled IFR, because............The two Beech 18s
on the wings of the A-36 made a substantially low pass over Lake
Cadillac, aimed westbound directly over the Sands Motel where a number
of our pals got to hear all 84 of our spark plugs raising hell. We
then initiated a pull-up, tear-drop in formation back the airport to
land.

Hmmm... Sands in Cadillac, the weekend before OSH... Wonder who'd be there... :D

No BE18 formations this year, but I did get to fly a Stearman. :goofy:
 
gkainz said:
Are there any online resources for formation flying training? Self study is no replacement for approved training courses in this kind of flying, but it would be interesting to read up on the right way to do this, especially to counter the offhand and cavalier example related in post 1 above.


I have a flight training program that teaches Unusual Attitude/ Upset Recovery/ Spin training... and am working on a program to teach Formation in a more formal fashion.... of course I am a USAF retired guy... so it is a bit different than the Navy way<g>.

Scott Perdue
www.flyAMT.com
 
Unregistered said:
I ... am working on a program to teach Formation in a more formal fashion.... of course I am a USAF retired guy... so it is a bit different than the Navy way<g>.
I think you'll find that the accepted standard in the civilian formation world is the T-34 Formation Flight Manual, which is actually a mix of USAF/Navy.
 
Ron Levy said:
I think you'll find that the accepted standard in the civilian formation world is the T-34 Formation Flight Manual, which is actually a mix of USAF/Navy.

Yep, for the most part the Navy guys have polluted civilian formation flying<g>. I've done a bit of the FAST stuff... and am all signaled out.

BTW, I've never done an IMC rejoin... lots and lots of IMC in formation... and rejoins on the tanker in marginal conditions... but vis was always at least a mile. Radar trail is a formation.... in the Eagle we used to bring a 4-ship in and drag the wingman one by one... so they are all in trail for the IMC landing. I've got a great description of this tanker/Lost wingman thing in my book... <shameless plug>.
 
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