Foreflight vs. ???

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by jsstevens, Jan 15, 2013.

  1. jsstevens

    jsstevens En-Route PoA Supporter

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    My original Foreflight subscription has almost come to an end. Before renewing, I'd like to get opinions of those who have 1) Used both Foreflight and something else and 2) choose the something else. If you haven't used Foreflight, please don't muddy the waters. (I can always ask, right?)

    1) What do you use instead?
    2) Why did you choose differently?
    3) What features/bugs drove you to change?

    Thanks,
    John
     
  2. Marauder

    Marauder Cleared for Takeoff

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    John -- I am currently using both the ForeFlight and the Garmin Pilot. Also did the 30 day WingX trial. I have the Garmin on an iPad and a Nexus 7 and the ForeFlight on the iPad and iPhone 5.

    I am still in love with ForeFlight's routing feature but Garmin has been continuing to improve their product and with the release last night, I will let my ForeFlight die later this year. Ironically, the Garmin Nexus version is not at the same level as the Garmin iPad version, but I think it will be at some point.

    My reason moving to Garmin is that they are bringing significant changes to their app on a more frequent basis. I fly in the mid Atlantic area and need to contend with many TFRs. With the Garmin update last night, I finally get to see where all those TFRs for sporting events are that I see as NOTAMS!
     
  3. BillTIZ

    BillTIZ En-Route

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    Normally sporting events do not get special TFR notams, unless it is a big event like the Super Bowl. Every weekend NASCAR or Football, baseball do not get NOTAMs.

    My Foreflight is up for renewal this weekend too. Be interesting to hear results of other software. ForeFlight and ADSB does not display traffic. Garmin and their reciever does provided limited TIS-B information with limitations.

    Do both provide position display on approach charts?

    I took my iPad Gen1 and ForeFlight to Alaska and back last summer, no issues, except I did not buy the 1yr Canadian chart service for the two weeks I would need them. Paper worked fine.
     
  4. rcpilot

    rcpilot Pre-Flight

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    I've played with a few on my Android, but none of them seem as solid as Foreflight. I've used Naviator (seemingly ok, but no seamless maps), and Garmin Pilot (pretty clunky on a phone). A friend of mine seems to like Avilution Aviationmaps and that looked like it could be the best option on Android platform. I'm also somewhat limited by the fact that I'm using a phone instead of a true tablet, but I don't have enough justification to purchase one now.

    On iPad, Foreflight is easy, and works well. I'd have it if I was in the iOS ecosystem, but the problem is a GPS iPad tablet will run you a lot more than a comparable Android, and I already barely have a use for a tablet to begin with. As an iOS Foreflight alternative people seem to prefer Garmin Pilot.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2013
  5. elmetal

    elmetal Pre-takeoff checklist

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    how would you compare wingx to garmin? is garmin the winner? I've been looking at garmin and at this new update, but I just can't get over the lack of intuitiveness that comes with the garmin app...
     
  6. LDJones

    LDJones Touchdown! Greaser!

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    On an iPad, I think ForeFlight still reigns supreme, but the enhanced TFR info in the latest Garmin Pilot is compelling and it seems to be on a bit more rapid development trajectory, as mentioned above.

    I'm also impressed with the FlyQ EFB. If you haven't looked at it give it a 30 day trial and see what you think before laying down cash.

    All three are solid choices. The obvious benefit Garmin has is Android support. I'm not holding my breath on FF making the move to Android.
     
  7. Badger

    Badger Pattern Altitude

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    I have both FF and Garmin Pilot. As others have said, FF is better on apple devices, but Pilot is a strong android program and is $49/year. When my FF runs out, I will likely not renew, and sell the iPad.

    Nexus 7 tablet is great
     
  8. CT4ME

    CT4ME Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

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    I have subs for Foreflight, WingX, Naviator, sky charts pro, and tried Garmin for two months. I suggest you do the free trial for WingX and Garmin. Both are very professional and have nice features. I keep going back to WingX because of the split screens and features that come with terrain. Check out the YouTube videos/training for both. The wife/navigator likes Foreflight.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2013
  9. jsstevens

    jsstevens En-Route PoA Supporter

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    After playing with WingX and Garmin-having already owned Foreflight (which I liked), I have chosen WingX. It's not any particular thing, but several things together. I still think Foreflight is a great product but I find WingX easier and the split screen adds a useful capability.

    Thanks to all for their input.
    John


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
     
  10. MickYoumans

    MickYoumans Cleared for Takeoff

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    John, I think you are going to love WingX. I sure do. The terrain and obstacle data base puts WingX so far out in front of ForeFlight. There are just so many little features in WingX that are nicely implemented. I also found WingX easier to read in flight. I started out with ForeFlight but after a round trip from Augusta to Colorado Springs comparing the two programs head to head, WingX was the clear winner. If you haven't already I suggest you go to the YouTube WingX channel and watch all of the instructional videos.
    I also have the SynthVision subscription too. I ordered an iLevil SW that is due for delivery tomorrow. I think with the addition of ADS-B weather / traffic and AHRS, it will put WingX over the top for in flight information.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2013
  11. CodeMonkey

    CodeMonkey Pre-Flight

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    ForeFlight had a big release last week, adding obstacle support, a new mapping engine (much faster), and track up (with track forward and track center modes). We're on pace to release pretty phenomenal stuff about every six weeks this year due to our R&D investments ... many things unfolding, with an eye towards remarkable performance.

    Last week's release was the second big release of 2013. Notes (and video): http://www.foreflight.com/marketing/201303-fm49/index.html

    So, stay tuned for more :)

    -tyson
     
  12. LDJones

    LDJones Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Tyson....I am a long time FF fan and hope you guys can keep innovating, but Garmin is giving you a run for your money. On the iPad it's a strong contender, and their Android version is a huge plus...alternatives to iPad are getting more compelling every week. I know resources are limited, but you'll leave a lot on the table if you continue to ignore the alternatives.

    The other thing we need is hardware agnostic software....support whatever works out there and let the user decide the hardware winner.

    Good luck!

    Loren
     
  13. JasonM

    JasonM Pattern Altitude

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    I'd sure be a happier ForeFlight customer if...

    1. It had synthetic vision
    2. The street maps worked without needing internet connection
    3. You could see a terrain graph when flight planning and colored terrain warnings
    4. They did a better job of map alignment
    5. There were split screen options
    6. you could plan flights for multiple altitudes

    I have tried WingX and didn't care for the layout, but I do think it offers more for your $$. I will prob stay with ForeFlight for another year and see where they go with it. Its more useful to me at this stage for flight planning than actually needing what it doesn't have. I do hope they bring those features in the near future.
     
  14. John221us

    John221us En-Route PoA Supporter

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    I have been a happy FF user for a couple of years. I would like to see extended runway lines and support for ADS-B traffic (I know that it is limited and only shows traffic when there is an ADS-B out nearby).
     
  15. CodeMonkey

    CodeMonkey Pre-Flight

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    Will keep chugging.

    "Whatever works" ends up cutting out a lot of choices - one receiver I tested dropped 50%+ of nexrad, another had imprecise GPS data due to misuse of the protocol, etc. We won't be the guys that support 10+ receivers because the quality varies widely, but a choice is a good thing.
     
  16. LDJones

    LDJones Touchdown! Greaser!

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    We don't need ten. But two or three options would be nice and would promote some competition on features, reliability and price.

    Thanks!
     
  17. CodeMonkey

    CodeMonkey Pre-Flight

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    Fair enough. If we support something, we've flight tested it sufficiently and sent it through a solid beta test gauntlet.

    That level of testing should be the minimum standard in apps land, but unfortunately unsuspecting folks go airborne every day thinking their app of choice and hardware selection is showing them an accurate picture, and that is not the case.
     
  18. John221us

    John221us En-Route PoA Supporter

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    I understand people wanting to embrace the Android platform for its open standards and wide range of platform choices, but it is this very thing that makes it a poor platform for aviation. Predictability and stability are the rule of the day and trying to deliver that across multiple OS's and infinite hardware platforms would be impossible. I applaud your choice to standardize and deliver a reliable product that can compete with the single vendor offerings, such as the Garmin Aera series.
     
  19. ja_user

    ja_user Cleared for Takeoff

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    I switched from Ipad to Android, even though it meant I had to give up ForeFlight.

    I went to Garmin PIlot, it isn't as good as ForeFlight.. But I made an overall decision, and I don't regret going to Android/Pilot instead of Ipad/Foreflight.

    Android Support only. in all other features Garmin is still behind foreflight..
     
  20. iflyforfun

    iflyforfun Pre-takeoff checklist

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    A really big +1. I couldn't agree more. Back in 2002 or so, I bought a Pocket PC and aviation app (I've forgotten the name). It had every bell and whistle I could imagine including the cones of safety. It promised the world and delivered everything it promised at least 50% of the time. They tried to support every type of Pocket PC on the market, used their customers as their beta testers and delivered a product that, when it worked, was AMAZING. Problem was that it very regularly would fail in use.

    Stability is key. Stability is critical. Choosing to develop for iOS really provides the ability to limit the world on which you focus. That is what kept me with Apple vs switching to Android ... Android's universe is too big resulting in lots of buggy crap. If you like to play with technology, I think Android delivers much better value. If you just want the dang thing to turn on and always work, iOS is the way to go.

    All that said, it does seem that FF is missing out on a large and growing segment. I'm guessing that they regularly discuss the newest "killer" Android platforms and discuss supporting (what's that Android that Jay has - X7 or something). Garmin has the scale/scope to commit and deliver performance to multiple platforms. I'm sure if they're successful in running FF, WingX and the others out of business, they'll jack the prices and screw us aviation folks as usual. I had a 430 and 396 back before FF really reached maturity. GREAT products, but stupid expensive. I'll support and live with a smidge less functionality to support a small and responsive company like FF.
     
  21. ProspectingCFI

    ProspectingCFI Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Totally agree with all of this... I've tried going the android route and just as stated, it can be very cool but the reliability is just not there. I think apples standards are much higher and their system just works better. Same for FF, as long as you guys keep doing what your doing and improving on things I will always be a loyal customer. Love the app and don't want anything else for now.
     
  22. SkyHog

    SkyHog Touchdown! Greaser!

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    What reliability are you guys talking about? You're not using either the iPad or an Android tablet as an IFR GPS legally anyway, so the thought that it might be more "dangerous" to use one vs. the other is dumb.

    Additionally, I've had more hardware and software issues in my experience with Apple devices than with any Windows or Android device to date.

    Foreflight has fallen behind its competitors. The only thing it continues to exceed is the price point of its competitors, often doubling their price. They need to embrace Android, and they need to do it soon - iOS is on the way out, and they're going to be stuck soon with outdated software running on an outdated platform.

    But hey - you get to pay more for geo-referenced plates! :thumbsup:
     
  23. dukeblue219

    dukeblue219 Line Up and Wait

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    Oh come on, you know that's not exactly true. :goofy:

    Anyway, I kind of understand what the FF guys are doing by limiting it to iOS and just the Stratus receiver. It's a very Apple-like strategy to guarantee a specific, high-quality user experience that isn't necessarily the first to introduce a feature, but they do it very well when they do. There are so many Android tablets with different feature sets that supporting them would result in a poor experience for many users and would take up a lot of development and support time to target dozens of devices, at the expense of their core business.

    Now, that's not the only way to succeed. There are Android competitors who ARE going after the market FF is ignoring, and some of them make good products. But I also hear from others reporting crashes or glitchy performance from the software and from the various built-in GPS's. It's just not a market FF appears to be interested in. Plenty of consumers, myself included, are evidently willing to pay a small premium for FF and an iPad versus the Android tablets/apps at the moment.

    I'm not an Apple fanboy. I like my Android phone just fine and will not be considering an iPhone likely ever. Sometimes it drives me nuts the way Apple does business. But I also recognize that the features Apple DOES support on the iPad seem to work better than on any Android I've used (Galaxy Tab 10.1, Galaxy Note, Galaxy Nexus).

    I want the app+hardware that works the most reliably, the most smoothly, and the most intuitively for pre-flight planning and in-flight reference, and at the moment consensus seems to be that that's FF.
     
  24. ProspectingCFI

    ProspectingCFI Pre-takeoff checklist

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    iOS is most difinitely not on its way out. Will it be around forever? Who knows, maybe not but currently they are thriving and growing fast. And everyone knows the limits of the ipad and were not saying its what we depend on. I'm just saying I pay good money to be able to use something I want it to be flawless unlike my android experiences. Just me, I realize people love their androids and windows stuff and that's great, there needs to be competition in this market.
     
  25. LDJones

    LDJones Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I'm not sure they've quite achieved "flawless"! My iPad4 has the same WiFi glitches as my iPad2...problems none of my Android devices have ever experienced. And 115 pages of people reporting the same issue on Apple's support website have gone unheeded by them.

    Personally, I've had as many iPad glitches as I've had Apple glitches, so I find them about a wash. Still love much about my iPad and really like ForeFlight, but if both went away today I wouldn't be much worse for the wear with my Nexus and GP.
     
  26. SkyHog

    SkyHog Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Everything Offends Me
    I'll let the numbers speak for themselves:
    [​IMG]
     
  27. SkyHog

    SkyHog Touchdown! Greaser!

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  28. Bill Watson

    Bill Watson Pattern Altitude

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    Two years ago I was an Android (and Windows) person who intended to use the Android platform in my IFR work. Apple IOS is for dummies and all that. With my new all glass panel, the plan was to use those 3 MFDS to do everything, backed up paper charts, backed up with my Android phone (e.g. accessing a plate that I didn't bring along). It worked but as long as I had to manage paper maps, but it didn't seem like a step forward.

    ForeFlight on the iPad convinced me that I could drop the maps and go paperless, so I did and found it works.

    The reliability and predictability is about piloting in IFR rather than it being legal. I have 3 screens with SV PFDs, moving maps with terrain,weather and traffic. I have a G430 with current DBs. That stuff flies me and the plane reliably and predictably. FF on the Pad gives me charts and plates for per-flight and inflight planning and briefing. It doesn't fly the plane, it just supports the pilot. In that role, running on the closed and controlled Pad, it's like another purpose built instrument. A killer app for me. If it does nothing other than run FF, at that price point, I'm good.

    Whether FF is being outdistanced or not, I wouldn't know but at this point it doesn't matter. My G430 has been outdistanced but I'll fly it for more than a few years. My glass is outdated but it's delivering real value every flight, reliably and consistently. Some may feel that FF needs to do an Android port but I decided I needed to do a personal IOS port and give up my beloved 'droid phone for an iPhone so I can backup my iPad and FF.

    Why I need to backup the Pad I don't know since I've had exactly 0 issues with the IOS HW and SW. A great relief after multiple issues with my old Aphone. Heck, the iPhone is just a better phone... But I don't really care. The whole package for me is a killer suite of products in support of my little personal airline.

    I have admit to getting carried away a bit by snatching my wife's MacBook Air. Great device but I'm just not a Mac guy. I use it but I'm not happy. And I'm still not really an IOS guy but aviation is a priority and the killer suite is wining out.

    Bill "I like platform debates but I really love to fly" Watson
     
  29. bbchien

    bbchien Final Approach

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    Hey he can only do what he can do with the team the price point supports!
    I do wish he could make it work with the Dual ADS-B or the GDL, but I'm sure it will with time.

    Thank you, Jason :)
     
  30. ssonixx

    ssonixx Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I think this is an overstatement. Volume share speaks more to channel availability at this point in time. Actually, iOS volume on a standalone basis is not decreasing. What isn't easily found is data showing share volume by price point. Growth of the Smartphone category overall has really been coming from lower price points which caters to first time category buyers and prepaid markets. No surprise that Android is moving quickly at sub-$100 subsidy post paid device segments and all prepaid markets. OEMs and carriers also are funding promotions to drive device prices down to a point that they are tangible to consumers who were previously priced out of the market which also further supports additional growth down market. Also, it is a big deal that Android OEMs are generally available in all channels to market, unlike Apple. In the US as an example, regional and prepay carriers lean towards Android. These carriers are like Cricket, US Cellular, MetroPCS, and even T-Mobile as a tier 1 doesn't carry Apple (yet?). Also, recall that even Sprint didn't have iOS till late 2011/early 2012. These operators don't carry iOS product, not generally for lack of interest, but more because of Apple subsidy requirements and volume commitments. It is a business model limitation on both sides.

    Apple does price at a premium and compared to some Android devices is under spec'd, but, it is hard to say that their product is inferior and their business is stagnating. Apple does market upscale, but it has been very successful for them and they have done a great job doing so.

    Full disclosure, I do have and like my iPad. But, I also have and like my Android smartphone.

    Net is, competition is good. Keep it coming.
     
  31. realjoshfreeman

    realjoshfreeman Filing Flight Plan

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    I've used Foreflight, WingX, and Garmin Pilot, but have stuck with ForeFlight.

    In my experience, tablet-using pilots fall into one of two camps: those who want to use their tablet as an electronic flight bag, and those who want to use it as a primary flight display.

    Those in the PFD camp gravitate toward WingX and some of the lesser-known software, because that's where you'll find the most support for synthetic vision, outboard ADAHRS, traffic, terrain, and so forth. If that's your cup of tea, then go for it... but my feeling is that if I were the kind of pilot who really needed things like synthetic vision and real-time traffic/terrain warnings on a regular basis, I wouldn't feel comfortable relying on general-purpose consumer-grade hardware for it. And in the small planes I typically fly, there's not even room to mount a tablet at eye level without covering up something important.

    I love the tablet as an EFB... having all the charts, plates, airport info and taxi diagrams, weather info, flight planning capability, etc, right there on one device is the killer app for me. For this, Foreflight has been far and away the most intuitive, although Garmin Pilot isn't terrible.

    Foreflight would be just about perfect if it had
    - Split screen, with the ability to display Airports, Maps, Plates, Documents, or Scratchpad on either side
    - A map overlay that displayed high-contrast airspace boundaries and airport symbols
    - A one-touch pop-up that would display ATC and FSS frequencies and weather data from the source nearest your current location (Garmin Pilot does something like this)
    - High-contrast extended runway centerlines shown for airports which are at the terminal end of the active leg

    Anyway. Just my $0.02, and you probably feel ripped off if you paid that much. :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2013
  32. fnpdoc

    fnpdoc Pre-Flight

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    ONe thing you are missing is there is ONE company providing iOS phones. How many are providing android phones? A whole bunch.
    So Apple is making a HUGE profit.


     
  33. SkyHog

    SkyHog Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Everything Offends Me
    Irrelevant. Apple may be making a HUGE profit (what's new, they overprice everything so that they do), but that doesn't change the fact that only 18% of smart phone users are buying their devices. That means its a dying product, like RIM. You don't see drop off from 60+% to the teens within a 2 year period unless your product is dying.
     
  34. Tony_Fletcher

    Tony_Fletcher Pre-Flight

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    Hahahaha! You sound like my financial advisor, who in 2001 suggested we sell our Apple stock since "they're definitely going out of business." My wife and I decided against, and bought more shares at $14.00.

    That guy isn't our financial planner anymore!

    A "dying" product. Funny stuff.
     
  35. SkyHog

    SkyHog Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Well, if you were a software developer, and you wanted to support the device that most people use, would you support the device with >60% marketshare or the one with <20% marketshare?

    I'm not talking about financial advice. Its clear that Apple will continue to make money as it rapes and gouges its customers. I'm talking about raw number of users.
     
  36. alaskaflyer

    alaskaflyer Final Approach

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    And so when Android drops off...?
     
  37. SkyHog

    SkyHog Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Something else will take its place. That's how technology works.
     
  38. John221us

    John221us En-Route PoA Supporter

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    The cost of development is much higher on Android, as there is no consistency from one device to the next. QA is a nightmare. I would say that the decision of what platform to develop on is not quite that clearcut and obviously, companies like Foreflight don't agree with your assessment.
     
  39. Tony_Fletcher

    Tony_Fletcher Pre-Flight

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    Well, if I'm the developer of Foreflight...

    Is that the only consideration for a developer, market share? Clearly not.

    Nice try!
     
  40. SkyHog

    SkyHog Touchdown! Greaser!

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    In a market as fickle as mobile software it better be. Ask anyone that still develops apps for blackberry. ..