For Ron or other PIC instructor

[TMetzinger]

Ron,

Is the Tabletop device (Frasca?) used for the instrument rating training considered an FTD or a Simulator?

How is the time/procedures entered in the student logbook?

 

[twdeckard]

I'm not Ron, a PIC instructor, or an Instructor but the tabletop ATC-610s are valid simulators and carry an N number and can be logged provided you are recieving appropriate dual.

I was doing holds/approaches in the local FBOs Frasca yesterday to make sure I had the right number of scratch marks to be paper current yesterday.

Todd

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I can't find official definitions, but as I understand it a Training device is generic in nature and a simulator replicates a specific airplane. Additionally, I believe that a simulator has to be full motion.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

AC 120-45A covers FTD and Simulator definitions; PCATDs (computer-based PC simulators) are covered separately under AC 61-126. BATDs and AATDs are covered under 2008's AC 61-136.

The ATC-710 is considered a Level III FTD per the manufacturer; not sure what the -610 is.

 

[wabower]

IIRC, the non-motion sims have numerical suffixes, the motion sims have letter suffixes, currently led by level D.

 

[TMetzinger]

I can't find official definitions, but as I understand it a Training device is generic in nature and a simulator replicates a specific airplane. Additionally, I believe that a simulator has to be full motion.

AC 61-136 covers what used to be PC-ATDs through level 3 flight training devices.

14 CFR Part 60 covers the bigger stuff, including Flight Training Devices and Full Flight Simulators.


The ugly part is that 61-136 says "if you have old stuff, it's grandfathered", but doesn't change the naming of it. And some of the new stuff that's call Advanced Aviation Training Devices is much more complex and realistic than the older gear called Flight Training Devices, but guess what - the older stuff counts "better" when it comes to currency.

Anyway, what I'm particularly looking for Ron to answer is what columns in the student log got time put in them. Simulated instrument would be an obvious yes, while flight time would be a no. Flight simulator is gray to me and I want to know what Ron does.

 

[twdeckard]

I can't find official definitions, but as I understand it a Training device is generic in nature and a simulator replicates a specific airplane. Additionally, I believe that a simulator has to be full motion.

Yes, I probably abused the official definition of simulator. All I am sure is that the ATC-X10 and the Frasca things are a notch above PC training devices and it seemed that it was the granting of an N number was somehow the majik part.

Not really qualified to know for sure, and too lazy too google but I have 1.1 hours in one this weekend!

Todd

 

[gismo]

Yes, I probably abused the official definition of simulator. All I am sure is that the ATC-X10 and the Frasca things are a notch above PC training devices and it seemed that it was the granting of an N number was somehow the majik part.

Not really qualified to know for sure, and too lazy too google but I have 1.1 hours in one this weekend!

Todd

The ATC-610 is a -710 without the "cockpit", IOW the 610 is a desktop unit and the 710 is a complete FTD that the pilot sit's inside of. The ATC 610/710 are quite a bit less sophisticated and less capable than most Frasca FTDs I've seen. I don't think the "N number" for the ATC line was "granted" by the FAA, I'm pretty certain it was coined by ATC themselves.

And in terms of functionality, most of the PC-ATDs will run circles around an ATC 610 although some are stuck with the need to manipulate objects via keyboard/mouse input or at least via knobs on a unit separate from the displayed instruments and avionics on the computer graphic "panel".

 

[TangoWhiskey]

I don't think the "N number" for the ATC line was "granted" by the FAA, I'm pretty certain it was coined by ATC themselves.

I 'spect you may be right. Whenever I've looked up the "N number" displayed on an ATC-610, it was never registered to the device, but to a real airplane.

 

[gprellwitz]

I 'spect you may be right. Whenever I've looked up the "N number" displayed on an ATC-610, it was never registered to the device, but to a real airplane.

Well, I just tried that with the Frasca simulator I use, and it doesn't come up either.

 

[Everskyward]

I 'spect you may be right. Whenever I've looked up the "N number" displayed on an ATC-610, it was never registered to the device, but to a real airplane.

Even "real" full-motion simulators don't have an N-number. They have a number but not an N-number.

 

[AdamB]

Not Ron, but my PIC instructor put time in both simulated instrument and the "ground trainer" column of my logbook.
Not exactly sure about the ground trainer column, as opposed to just putting it in a spare empty column, but it was a way to keep track of the time logged in the sim vs. the airplane, up to the allowed 20 hours.
He logged the entries with ATC-610J as the make & model and "SIM" under Aircraft identifier.

 

[TMetzinger]

Not Ron, but my PIC instructor put time in both simulated instrument and the "ground trainer" column of my logbook.
Not exactly sure about the ground trainer column, as opposed to just putting it in a spare empty column, but it was a way to keep track of the time logged in the sim vs. the airplane, up to the allowed 20 hours.
He logged the entries with ATC-610J as the make & model and "SIM" under Aircraft identifier.

Sim time IS definitely ground training time. Thanks for the input, I was looking to see if time was put in the "flight simulator" column for those devices, and it appears not.

 

[flyersfan31]

My PIC instructor logged as simulator time only. They are not counted in my total flight hours.

 

[poadeleted20]

First, the ATC-610 that PIC uses is a FTD, and every PIC instructor has a copy of the FAA letter which says so (to show doubting examiners).

Second, as far as 1.1, 61.51 and 61.1 are concerned, time in the ATC-610 is pilot time, training received, instrument training, and simulated instrument. Since it is "training, other than flight training, received from an authorized instructor," you could also log it in the ground training part of the log under 61.1(b)(8), but nobody does, because that would be duplicative and confusing.

 

[TMetzinger]

First, the ATC-610 that PIC uses is a FTD, and every PIC instructor has a copy of the FAA letter which says so (to show doubting examiners).

Second, as far as 1.1, 61.51 and 61.1 are concerned, time in the ATC-610 is pilot time, training received, instrument training, and simulated instrument. Since it is "training, other than flight training, received from an authorized instructor," you could also log it in the ground training part of the log under 61.1(b)(8), but nobody does, because that would be duplicative and confusing.

what is "pilot time"?

And the ATC-610 is definitely a grandfathered FTD. Did you see in the new rewrite for instrument currency that they no longer lump airplane and SIM/FTD in one paragraph. So it looks like you have to do all the currency stuff in either an airplane or a sim/ftd, but can't mix and match any more.

 

[poadeleted20]

what is "pilot time"?

Just what it says in 14 CFR 61.1(b)(14).

(14) Pilot time means that time in which a person-
(i) Serves as a required pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device; or
(iii) Gives training as an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.

And the ATC-610 is definitely a grandfathered FTD.

Yes -- and I have it in writing signed by the FAA.

Did you see in the new rewrite for instrument currency that they no longer lump airplane and SIM/FTD in one paragraph. So it looks like you have to do all the currency stuff in either an airplane or a sim/ftd, but can't mix and match any more.

That part is, as they say in the NFL, "under further review."

 

[TMetzinger]

Just what it says in 14 CFR 61.1(b)(14).

Yes -- and I have it in writing signed by the FAA.
That part is, as they say in the NFL, "under further review."

OK, to be clear, you don't log it as FLIGHT time in the log book, but do you log it as PIC?

I'm still confused as to which columns in a log book are "pilot time" loggable with a SIM/FTD

 

[poadeleted20]

OK, to be clear, you don't log it as FLIGHT time in the log book, but do you log it as PIC?

No, because it is not flight time, and PIC time is a subset of flight time. See the applicable definitions in 1.1 and 61.51(e)(1).

I'm still confused as to which columns in a log book are "pilot time" loggable with a SIM/FTD

The one labled "Pilot Time," but most logs don't have that. BTW, I can log time giving training on the ATC-610 as "pilot time," too, but since I don't have that column in my log, and nobody cares about it anyway, I don't bother.

 

[TMetzinger]

Thanks Ron, that makes sense to me. Just wanted to be sure I wasn't missing something.

 

[crash7]

My logbook has a "Simulator" column. I've used that when I'm *receiving* training in a training device, plus Dual Received. No PIC, no total, etc.

Would the CFII log Dual GIVEN in his/her logbook? How about THEIR "Simulator" or "Ground Trainer" column?

 

[poadeleted20]

Would the CFII log Dual GIVEN in his/her logbook? How about THEIR "Simulator" or "Ground Trainer" column?

When giving training in a flight simulation device, the instructor can, under 61.51, log pilot time and training given, but not flight time, PIC, SIC, instrument (actual or simulated), solo, or training received. That's the end of what the regs cover. Beyond that, you're on your own regarding the logging of time in columns whose names aren't defined by or called for in the FAR's.