Flying the localizer...

The best instructor in the world isn't going to put it into words that'll translate perfectly for the student. They can guide a student, but in the end, the student themselves will learn this own slight variation of the instructor's teaching that works best for them.

Of course every student has to learn how to fly. Flight Instructors describe, demonstrate, observe, and correct.

Yet I don't agree with your assertion that technique cannot be expressed in words. The weakest thing any instructor in any endeavor can ever say is, "Well, you just have to know how to do it -- I can't explain it to you."

If you can't "explain it," you have no business "instructing."
 
Of course every student has to learn how to fly. Flight Instructors describe, demonstrate, observe, and correct.

Yet I don't agree with your assertion that technique cannot be expressed in words. The weakest thing any instructor in any endeavor can ever say is, "Well, you just have to know how to do it -- I can't explain it to you."

If you can't "explain it," you have no business "instructing."
I'm not saying that one can't explain it Dan. I'm saying that often these things are rather subconscious and a pilot doesn't even REALIZE what they do. The actual learning will be rather subconscious as well. The final segment of an approach is a rather dynamic experience. It's rather hard to think too heavily about the theory. As Mari said, she didn't even realize how she made small corrections until someone else observed it.

The instructor's guidance can help -- but in the end -- the student will develop their own technique that may or may not resemble the instructor's words.

I'm not sure how you're pulling out of my words the concept that I think an instructor shouldn't try to explain something.
 
This sounds like it's devolving into the difference between technique and art.

Anyone who's taken painting or dance or singing or golf or... knows that there's only so far ANY instructor can take you - to the level where you understand what you're trying to do, and the way that most people are able to accomplish it. Taking it beyond that level is an internal exercise where you are at the highest levels of the various learning domains, and essentially "self-programming" towards perfection.

That's why the PTS doesn't call for "perfect". It sets a reasonable envelope for folks to operate in, and those who operate at the higher levels will self-improve from there.

I've flown with folks who make things that I find an effort look easy. Others have said the same about certain skills I have. Everyone is different.
 
This sounds like it's devolving into the difference between technique and art.
I think it also has to do with a difference in learning styles. Some people like to hear a lot of step-by-step instructions and are much more into theory than other people. Some people learn best by imitation and doing. That's not to say that some explanation isn't necessary. But by the time you are doing instrument approaches you should already have a good feel for what the rudder and ailerons do.
 
I'm not sure how you're pulling out of my words the concept that I think an instructor shouldn't try to explain something.

When you said this:

Talking about flying an approach and flying an approach are well, two entirely different things. It becomes such a subconscious exercise that it becomes rather difficult to actually discuss how you do it.

I don't think they are "two different things" to someone that wants to teach someone else how to do it. They can't be.

I'm not saying that one can't explain it Dan. I'm saying that often these things are rather subconscious and a pilot doesn't even REALIZE what they do. The actual learning will be rather subconscious as well. The final segment of an approach is a rather dynamic experience. It's rather hard to think too heavily about the theory. As Mari said, she didn't even realize how she made small corrections until someone else observed it.

I think you hit on the exact difference between a teacher and an ordinary educator -- a great teacher (in every field, not just flying) can observe subtle things that can be molded/adapted/adjusted/corrected and then can communicate those cues in ways that the trainee can apply.

Notice I didn't say "explain" -- just "communicate."

I taught High School History and coached Varsity Basketball for five years. What I learned from that experience was that every student and athlete had a different set of buttons. My task as teacher and coach was to figure out what those were, and adapt my delivery method to the button set.

On my 23-1, championship team (1987, and I still hear from those guys) my center had to be shown. My point guard had to be convinced. My forwards would argue and argue until they finally relented, tried it my way, and it worked. My shooting guard had to think every change was his idea, and so on.

They thought they were learning how to be a basketball team. My ulterior motive was to produce mature men (this was a boy's varisty team, after all) -- mature men that knew how to bounce back from disappointment, knew how to get along with others, knew how to put up with pain now for a reward later, et cetera.

How do you "instruct" those high flautin' ideals?

You observe, you analyze, you dissect, you prod, you poke, you challenge -- all the while you have the bigger picture in mind -- one which the trainee may not share or even understand yet.

How does this apply to flying a localizer?

A good instructor isn't simply preparing an airplane driver . Rather, we should be molding aviators -- people who understand why something is happening and judge and apply the appropriate response to that condition based on expertise.

Therefore to Tim's point that this is technique vs. art debate -- it's not, really. Only mastery of technique permits art. Art without technique is impossible-- that's mere chance.

The instructor's guidance can help -- but in the end -- the student will develop their own technique that may or may not resemble the instructor's words.

Of course -- If the student can apply a technique and knows why and when, then the instructor should be able to say , "Hey, that's great!" and add it to his/her storehouse of knowledge.
 
I think it also has to do with a difference in learning styles. Some people like to hear a lot of step-by-step instructions and are much more into theory than other people. Some people learn best by imitation and doing. That's not to say that some explanation isn't necessary. But by the time you are doing instrument approaches you should already have a good feel for what the rudder and ailerons do.
I love the theory behind things and tend to take it rather far. That said, I recognize the difference between that theory and actual practice. A lot of it is just useless knowledge that interests me :)
 
Therefore to Tim's point that this is technique vs. art debate -- it's not, really. Only mastery of technique permits art. Art without technique is impossible-- that's mere chance.

I sort of agree - as long as you specify that not ALL technique must be mastered, only the techniques used to create the art.
 
I sort of agree - as long as you specify that not ALL technique must be mastered, only the techniques used to create the art.

Precisely -- today's technique was formed after someone confronted the status quo.

The Wrighter Brothers challenged all the "known rules" by carefully challenging established knowledge with new data derived from observation and experimentation.
 
Last edited:
There is a lot to focus on during an approach. A GPS approach now provides magical numbers we didn't have before. Those numbers easily steal a lot of attention and when presented as precise numbers people tend to want the numbers to be perfect. In reality you can't make it perfect and the desire to constantly align the degrees will result in a LOT of correcting one wouldn't do if they'd just use the CDI.

In the end, the best way to make a one degree correction will completely vary from airplane to airplane which is why you'll see different pilots saying different things. I do think that once you're getting into one-degree-attention arena that you're probably either over-correcting OR you're towards the final moments of the approach where (hopefully) your airplane is coupled to the CDI via yourself.

I think you might be surprised at how much a one degree course error affects the LOC indication when near the intersection of the GS and LOC. The effect varies with glideslope angle, runway length (longer is worse) and groundspeed (faster is worse) but by my calculations in typical conditions for me (3 deg glideslope, 120 Kt GS and a 6000 ft runway) a one degree error results in a full deflection in 2.5 seconds when near the DH. That's a one dot error in less than a second. If you improve things by shortening the runway to 4000 ft and flying the approach at 80 Kt the time for a full deflection rises to about 4.5 seconds or about a dot per second.

That tells me that anyone who can keep the needle in the doughnut up to DH is likely correcting with a precision much better than one degree. Of course the way this is done isn't by adjusting and maintaining heading to small fractions of a degree but rather by making multiple corrections of substantiallly less than one degree.

And WRT using GPS track for heading correction, that works well when you are far from the DH and makes it far easier and quicker to obtain initial course alignment but as you get close the the DH the resolution (one degree) is insufficient.
 
On an ILS I never fly the needle I always fly a heading, in training I would fly the needle and was always chasing it. My Instructor (dad) tought me to fly a heading and it has always worked well for me. At times i question if the localizer is working because the needle doesnt move.


Steve
 
Liz,

I was where you are two years ago. There is lots of good information and ideas here but when you're learning the key is to keep things as simple and consistent as possible.

The key, I found to flying the LOC was fly a course on the heading indicator and adjust the course based on what the needle tells you and make smaller adjustments the further you get into the approach. It's better to note the need for more wind correction or that the HI is not in sync with the compass and go back and try again than chasing the needle to the MAP. If the approach is not stable and the corrections are not minor go missed and while you're lining up determine what correction needs to be taken for the next approach.

The other thing that I hated but helped me in flying the LOC was the LOC BC 27 L at PTK. Besides having to ignore the GS indication and work the needles backwards it is more sensitive than a front course and you learn not to chase the needles and make fine adjustments. Once you get reasonably proficient, I never got to where I was really good or satisfied with the way I flew that approach, the LOC FC and the ILS are easy.
 
Hi Ray,

Yes, flying a heading is exactly what I try to do on an ILS or LOC, though it gets hard when there's any significant chop, and that method doesn't seem to have enough resolution close to DA -- I can't make heading corrections with enough precision using the DG when the localizer envelope is that narrow. In the last 300 feet or so I try to use small bank angles, a couple of degrees or so for a second or two, then glance back at the needle to see the effect, and repeat if necessary. I still haven't figured out how to do it well when things get bumpy since I can't exactly tell when my wings are level, on average.

We did do the LOC BC @ PTK early on, I think it was the second LOC approach I did. I really need to get back there and do it again. I didn't notice that it was much harder than the FC but again, that was before I had a good feel for what a LOC is like close in.
 
When you're getting close to DA it's time to stop flying the needles and start looking for the runway environment.
 
When you're getting close to DA it's time to stop flying the needles and start looking for the runway environment.
Except when you're preparing for the checkride. :wink2: CFII says I gotta be able to hold the needles centered right down to DA, so that's what I'm working on.
 
Except when you're preparing for the checkride. :wink2: CFII says I gotta be able to hold the needles centered right down to DA, so that's what I'm working on.

Details.

I don't remember Mary at PTK being all that tough. Of course we had high enough winds that the holding pattern was two minutes of turn followed by about two minutes back to the intersection.
 
On an ILS I never fly the needle I always fly a heading, in training I would fly the needle and was always chasing it. My Instructor (dad) tought me to fly a heading and it has always worked well for me. At times i question if the localizer is working because the needle doesnt move.


Steve
Welcome to POA. Great to see so many newcomers lately. What brought you to us?
 
Back
Top