Flying over water in Single Engine Aircraft

Don Jones

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The wife and I are going with a group of 5 aircraft leaving LRU flying to Guaymas, Mexico for customs etc. then we are flying to Hotel Serenidad on the Baja Peninsula. It is 84 miles straight across the water and some in the group don't want to make that far of a ride over open water. The only other option is going north to a chain of islands and crossing there. I doubt the islands offer much of an emergency landing sight and probably just serve to make them feel better. Any opinions on going straight across? I haven't flown that far over water before, the longest so far is 40-50 miles, but then whats another 30. We are flying our airplane which is in the best of mechanical condition and I trust it.
I wouldn't even consider it in a rental. This discussion is probably just for education as we will probably be taking the island route anyway. Just curious how others approach risks of flying over open water.
Thanks all,
Don
 
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I routinely cross Lake Michigan in my single. My sister who is pretty antsy/anxious/nervous when it comes to flying, even on big iron, has made the Lake Michigan crossing with me. Going straight across? You betcha! I don't even think twice about it in my plane.
 
Depends on the water - Over busy warm water, I would consider it. Over a large cold body of water, I don't think I would do it. I guess its a personal choice. How often has your engine quit over land? It does not know it's over water, so its the same odds. The rub is _if it dies_ you are SOL.

Also escaping from _any_ plane in a water landing would be problematic at best...

Personally, I look at longer routes when trying to minimize my exposure as the "scenic" route. In some cases you just have no choice (FL to Bahamas for example), and just decide based on your personal level of comfort.

S.
 
Over the waters of Baja California, 800 MHz epirb would be the way to go; raft and potable water....
 
You asked, so, my opinion is this: I would never do it. Period.

(I don't mean to sound disapproving. Who am I to dissaprove? And you probably remember that I am a wimp when it comes to risk.)
 
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sshekels said:
Also escaping from _any_ plane in a water landing would be problematic at best...
Old wives tale alert! The data do NOT back this statement up.

A study of controlled ditchings in a recent 10-year period showed a 96 percent successful egress rate. That is, 96 percent of occupants egress successfully. That same study showed that 92 percent of occupants survive with less than serious injuries.

Inflatable vest, raft, EPIRB, survival kit and you're ready to rock and roll. Take it seriously, yes, but unless you're talking very cold water or something like crossing the North Atlantic, it's hardly a death sentence.
 
I've gone to the Bahamas from Fort Pierce; Nassau, Fort Pierce, across the gulf from New Orleans to Florida. My plane will go high as it's a turbo. Headin from New Orleans to Cozumel direct in July. I have all the stuff on board Ken mentioned and more.

The plane never knew it was over water. Or at least it didn't show it. Yes, take it seriously. In a well maintained plane, pretty low odd one would have a major problem over the water, but it happens. (BTW, I may take the Baron instead now that I think of it :D ).

Best,

Dave
A-36TN ADS
 
Ken Ibold said:
Old wives tale alert! The data do NOT back this statement up.

A study of controlled ditchings in a recent 10-year period showed a 96 percent successful egress rate. That is, 96 percent of occupants egress successfully. That same study showed that 92 percent of occupants survive with less than serious injuries.

Hmm, I stand corrected, however a quick Google shows no hard data that I can validate, so I still am dubious... (just my opinion) What types of planes, locations, etc?

I have hard time imaging a forced landing into water with fixed gear (in my case) and trying to evacuate the plane in a stressful emergency situation, with possible injuries. Seems like a recipe for disaster. (A quote from http://www.equipped.com/ditchtraining_2.htm was "Of the vast majority who survived a ditching, only 8 percent were documented as managing to escape the aircraft without some degree of difficulty.")

Not disputing your claim (and lots of Google info shows rates of >80%), but I'd like to see a "real" study with hard data, not just a web page. Do you know of any? (PLEASE don't take this wrong, just academic curiosity. I wonder how water survival compares to land, etc?)

Thanks!
S.

PS - Here is more interesting info:

"The combined statistics for UK and USA registered light aircraft ditchings reveal two very interesting facts. First, 88% of controlled ditchings result in little or no injury to the aircraft occupants. There is no statistically significant difference between high wing and low wing aircraft. Second, half of those pilots and passengers who survive the water landing die before the rescue services get to them." From http://216.109.117.135/search/cache?p=water+ditching+survival+study&ei=UTF-8&fl=0&xargs=0&pstart=1&b=11&u=www.gremline.com/page14.html&w=water+ditching+survival+study&d=93C9AE13D5&icp=1&.intl=us
 
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Flew 100 miles between Hawaiin Islands once in a ratty (cosmetically) rental 172 at fairly low altitude (3K). Didn't bother me at all. Had vests and raft readily at hand. Check the Hawaii NTSB's. I didn't count but I believe that there are more successfull ditchings than not.
 
wangmyers said:
You asked, so, my opinion is this: I would never do it. Period.

(I don't mean to sound disapproving. Who am I to dissaprove? And you probably remember that I am a wimp when it comes to risk.)

Ben,

I told you we were a lot alike! ;)

I would have done it years ago, but not after a recent thread on the CPA board about a perfectly good and very-well-maintained single that flew all the way up the East Coast from the Bahamas without a problem...and then the engine quit at 10,000 over JFK.

The guy had his kids on board. They didn't even care...kept playing games while he circled to lose altitude. He made a good landing at JFK.

Also coming to mind, Dr. B's precautionary shut-down.
 
jkaduk said:
Flew 100 miles between Hawaiin Islands once in a ratty (cosmetically) rental 172 at fairly low altitude (3K). Didn't bother me at all. Had vests and raft readily at hand. Check the Hawaii NTSB's. I didn't count but I believe that there are more successfull ditchings than not.

John, I think I know the FBO you used--good people. They used to have a Seneca for rent, and I would take that. Very few good places to have a forced landing in the Hawaiian islands. At least the water's fine!
 
Depends on the altitude & distance to shore. At 17,000 feet, my glide range is well over 30 miles. That offers a lot of flexibility.

I also know how the airplane is maintained, and the overall condition. That makes a difference, too.
 
Has anyone done a theoretical calculating of the odds? Seems like it would be astronomical, but apparently it happens enough.
Is it wrong to say, "If you have one E.F in 10000 hours, then the chance of it happening on a 1hr flight across a pond is 1:10000" ....or is the chance the same for every single flight (assuming everything else is constant)?
Don I flew the 80 miles across the Golfo de C. a couple of yrs back single engine. There were few boats, and I imagined a lot of sharks! I would do it again, but I wouldn't want a large % of my flying to have that risk.
 
RobertGerace said:
Ben,

I told you we were a lot alike! ;)

I would have done it years ago, but not after a recent thread on the CPA board about a perfectly good and very-well-maintained single that flew all the way up the East Coast from the Bahamas without a problem...and then the engine quit at 10,000 over JFK.

The guy had his kids on board. They didn't even care...kept playing games while he circled to lose altitude. He made a good landing at JFK.

Also coming to mind, Dr. B's precautionary shut-down.

Bob -

Just file IFR and all your problems go away! :D
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Has anyone done a theoretical calculating of the odds? Seems like it would be astronomical, but apparently it happens enough.
Is it wrong to say, "If you have one E.F in 10000 hours, then the chance of it happening on a 1hr flight across a pond is 1:10000" ....or is the chance the same for every single flight (assuming everything else is constant)?
Don I flew the 80 miles across the Golfo de C. a couple of yrs back single engine. There were few boats, and I imagined a lot of sharks! I would do it again, but I wouldn't want a large % of my flying to have that risk.


Dave, its been way too long since college calculus, but I think there is a factorial in figuring the odds. I actually think it will calculate higher. I mean the odds of the 1 failure happening in that 1 particular hour you happen to be flying over water. Come on calculus wizards help us out on this one.

For the record I am game with the appropriate precautions, however the wife and others on the trip are shying away from it. Weather would play a significant factor in my decision, no way I would do it in marginal weather. From what I remember of the islands you ain't gonna land there anyway, so you are back to a ditch in the ocean even though you can do it near land. From what I hear there are a lot of fishing boats around, and they say to try to head for one before ditching.

Don
 
Don Jones said:
For the record I am game with the appropriate precautions, however the wife and others on the trip are shying away from it.
I respect their/your choice, nothing wrong with that.
Weather would play a significant factor in my decision, no way I would do it in marginal weather.
Don
Also I worry about the quality of weather reporting and the navaids in Mx esp the smaller airports... heard of them just going on strike and shutting everything off for a day or so - not a nice surprise. Its the kind of trip that begs for good vfr.
Have fun and take that camera!
 
Don,

I would agree with your assessment that the islands in the Gulf are not real suitable for landing but they may provide a place to swim to if you can set down near them. They arent that big and look fairly rocky to me from the air. The water this time of year is generally pretty calm in the Gulf which would help if you had to ditch, but Id worry more about those big fishies with lots of teeth I think.

For me, Id make sure I had a raft and handheld radio to try and reach all the airliners flying back and forth to the US. Most monitor 121.5. Not sure how good Mazatlan centers reception is out there in the agua.

Have fun,
Tim
 
I'm leaving for the Bahamas Apr. 30th. We're flying out of FPR to Freeport which is about 90 NM. I feel the risks are minimal in an ASEL. 10K/IFR should give me plenty of time to declare, get a response, and set up for the ditch. I've reviewed the ditching instructions and will take a copy with me.

Over water, we'll both be wearing vests and the FBO @ FPR rents emergency rafts for $85 per week. The big question is how difficult would it be to pull an emergency raft from the back seat of a sinking Cessna?

I'm also going to carry the handheld navcom, gps, batteries, and some emergency supplies in a waterproof diving bag. I'm not so sure I want to spring for an EPIRB, although I've thought about it based on the amount of sailing I do.

Greg
182RG
 
ggroves said:
Over water, we'll both be wearing vests and the FBO @ FPR rents emergency rafts for $85 per week. The big question is how difficult would it be to pull an emergency raft from the back seat of a sinking Cessna?
Have your passenger retrieve it while descending and use it as a cushion to prevent striking the panel (well, OK, it ain't as soft as a pillow, but it's softer than metal). Then you have it at hand. Keep track of where boats are, and ditch near one if possible. Spend the rest of your trip on a yacht.

(veteran of 28 trips between FPR and Bahamas in a single)
 
N2212R said:
Bob -

Just file IFR and all your problems go away! :D

Ed,

You're soooo right! When the engine quits...you're already talking to somebody who most likely has you on radar...or has been keeping up with your position within 20 or 30 miles along a straight line!

You could ask for vectors to the nearest airport and not lose time fiddling with the GPS while you set up for best glide and point the airplane to the closest airport.

Once established and you see you're going to make it across the water, with room to spare, you could ask ATC if the airport you have 'made' has services. If not, you could even **very carefully** decide if you have the range to get to one that does have services.

Heck, you might get lucky and they might have a pilot or a mechanic who could remind you of your engine-out-checklist. You did check both mags, fuel, alternate air, etc. Oh, you forgot alternate air? Broooom! (Or, if none of that works...)

If you're Bill, you were flying this trip at 17,000 and most likely could make it to an airport that has services.

You could talk to the controllers to find out exactly what the wind was doing at your chosen airport and make sure that if you do the classic overshoot that at least you're doing it into the wind. You could also ask them to roll the trucks for you.

Hey! You could even ask them to have coffee and donuts waiting when you land!

That IFR thing is great, isn't it? :D
 
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I have twice flown 6000 miles over water from New Zealand to California, once in a single and once in a twin so I guess 80 miles doesn't sound too scary.
If the aircraft is well maintained and one you know then I wouldn't consider the risk too great. Take sensible precautions (wear your life jackets, have the raft readily available etc) and the very unlikely event of a ditching should be completely surviveable. If you are going with a group of other aircraft the rescue probabilities go up enormously.
Stephen.
 
If we worry about ditching, let's worry about flying over forests, densely populated urban areas, rocky terrain, etc. that we routinely fly over? It seems one could lose some sleep thinking about the survivability of a crash there.
 
Gary Sortor said:
If we worry about ditching, let's worry about flying over forests, densely populated urban areas, rocky terrain, etc. that we routinely fly over? It seems one could lose some sleep thinking about the survivability of a crash there.

My thoughts exactly, I routinely fly across the northern end of the Gila National forest over some pretty rough terrain. There are a lot of meadows but, I imagine they would be pretty rough to land in. Everytime I go across there I am always looking and planning where I will go if........
Don
 
Agreed. 90 NM over warm, highly traveled water vs. 90 NM over central West Virginia. I'll take my chances in the water....

Greg
182RG
 
I'd rather take my chances in water or trees, but flying over cities gives me the willies when it comes to engine-out options. The one thing that cities have going for them is people want easy access to transportation, so there's an airport someplace. Chances are I'm high enough to get there in a "crappy" 172.

P.S.
I say "crappy" with a lot of warmth in my heart. I'd give my left _____ to own one.
 
FWIW here's my take on this. I agree with Ken that ditching by itself is pretty survivable, and I think the statistics compare favorably with other emergency landings if you exclude the survival issues that come up after the ditching/landing. And that's the key, your chances of coming through any total power loss relatively unharmed are affected much more by what happens after you get out of the plane than where you come down, be it in the middle of a city, a forest, an ocean, the mountains, or a flat open area. So in my mind it boils down to having access to what you need to survive. Over water that might mean a raft and a means to produce drinkable liquids. It might be as little as life vests and a means to be located quickly if rescue is nearby and the water is warm (and lacking in people eaters), or it might be full survival suits and a food supply in addition to the raft and drinks. Over a wilderness area in the winter you'd better have sufficient clothing and footwear, without which you might have been better off in the middle of the Gulf treading water.

One should also remember that the most common causes of engine stoppage (fuel starvation, exhaustion, contamination) can affect all engines of a twin or single just as easily.
 
Don Jones [snip said:
Just curious how others approach risks of flying over open water.
Thanks all,
Don

Twice I have rented in Hawaii and flown between HNL and Lihue, Kauai (LIH). It's the only inter-island flight in which for several minutes all you see is ocean, even on a good VFR day. My attitude toward risk is (I think) objective: the engine doesn't know whether you're near an airport and the odds of failure aren't any higher (and very low). But still there were sweaty palms! About the time you think land ought to be coming into view is when you start to wonder whether VORs and GPS are all smoke and mirrors after all, and you're not going to see anything until you get to Yokohama, a bit of a stretch in a 172.... Afterward, I liked the sweaty palms times. It felt good to do it and realize it worked.

Most of the time, I take over-water flights more seriously than this implies. In particular I avoid cold water. I figure that barring big waves, I can probably get down in one piece and exit the airplane, and I'm a reasonably strong swimmer. But there is a big difference in survival time in the water near Hawaii or in the Caribbean than offshore New Jersey, as in IFR routes to Long Island from the south. Having 1-2 hr leeway in waiting for pick-up is a very big difference than 20 minutes.

Real world? I would overfly Lake Michigan in summer VFR but probably not winter or IMC; and would take the longer route to Long Island, and have taken the longer route from No. California to central CA coast (e.g., Monterey) rather than the over-water route 15 NM offshore. (If my wife is with me, I stay well away from any water bigger than Lake Tahoe--her risk tolerance is below zero!)

Hunter
 
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Handsfield said:
Real world? I would overfly Lake Michigan in summer VFR but probably not winter or IMC; and would take the longer route to Long Island, and have taken the longer route from No. California to central CA coast (e.g., Monterey) rather than the over-water route 15 NM offshore. (If my wife is with me, I stay well away from any water bigger than Lake Tahoe--her risk tolerance is below zero!)

FWIW, the summer water temp in Lake Michigan rarely gets up to 60 F and survival times without some protection will still be fairly short. I always figured that you needed to be high enough to glide to within walking distance of the shore if you wanted to live through a ditching without a raft.
 
lancefisher said:
FWIW, the summer water temp in Lake Michigan rarely gets up to 60 F and survival times without some protection will still be fairly short. I always figured that you needed to be high enough to glide to within walking distance of the shore if you wanted to live through a ditching without a raft.

I've been in the water when we took a boat a few miles off shore in Lake Michigan in the past. The water is quite a bit cooler than shore. But I would wager that if I could see the shore from water level I could survive the ordeal - in the summer of course. In the winter - no way Jose.
 
Don Jones said:
For the record I am game with the appropriate precautions, however the wife and others on the trip are shying away from it.Don

I'm gonna join in this discussion, mainly because I flew the Cayman Caravan 3 years ago for the first time. IFR from Key West, over Cuba, and on to Grand Cayman. Being able to take the trip was one of the primary factors that finally prompted me to get my instrument rating. The first leg is 105 NM over water to Cuba. The longest overwater leg is about 160 NM from southern Cuba UCL (Cayo Largo del Sol) to MWCR in Grand Cayman. I had such a blast that I begged the organizers to let me on staff. They did, and we are preparing for the 2005 Caravan, my wife's and my 3rd, which takes place in June 14-20. More on that in another thread.

The overwater trip is a bit nerve-racking the first time out, because it is such an unknown, and you hear so many strong opinions about the risks. My wife was nervous about going, but knew it meant a lot to me, so she went. What a blast, and what a sense of accomplishment. Now she loves it. But we wear our SOSpenders (inflatable life vests, very comfortable) which makes her feel better, and we both carry signal mirrors and whistles and a small first aid kit in our pockets. Also, we each have a few sealed packets of water on us. Just having the life vests on makes her feel safe. The caravan has taken a low of 35 to a high of 125 planes per year on this trip, with only one incident in 14 years, and that happened just off departure at Key West. IIRC, Amy's article about the incident (which I cannot locate at the moment) joked that she was trying to find a clear spot on the water to land, there were so many boats around.

From an AvWeb article in June 2000 said:
Amy Laboda was forced to ditch her Cessna 210 in the Florida Straits shortly after takeoff from the Key West (Fla.) International Airport (EYW). The episode was a testimony to training, quick decision-making and the need to keep an airplane under control. Laboda and her two daughters Rose, 10, and Leah, 9, plus their babysitter, Kim Luebke, 15, and 31-year-old passenger Lauren Jackson (a Caravan staffer) all escaped the ditching with physical injuries amounting to nothing more than cuts and bruises. That cannot be said for the airplane, however.

Laboda had just departed EYW for Grand Cayman as one of the last planes out and was only about four miles offshore at 1,500 feet MSL when the event occurred. At that point and without warning, the 210's engine suffered an as-yet-unexplained catastrophic failure, losing all power. Laboda immediately turned the Cessna around, declared an emergency and was able to glide the aircraft to approximately two miles off Key West before being forced to ditch in some 30 feet of water. Despite some difficulties exiting the airplane -- which sank quickly -- all five occupants escaped and were rescued, within about five minutes, by a passing boat. In short order, they were transferred to the care of the U.S. Coast Guard and then to a local hospital before being released later that day. On Thursday, passenger Lauren Jackson (who, after the accident, caught a commercial flight to the Caymans) discussed her experience with Caravan participants. The Cessna has already been retrieved and, at last word, was being trucked to a maintenance facility where its engine can be removed and sent off for examination to determine the cause of the failure.

Last year we had everything from a musketeer to a Citation I make the trip with us. About 80% of the aircaft last year were singles. I think that is fairly typical of the mix we have.

For Kim and I, the life raft is at hand when we take overwater trips, as is the "ditch kit", a well stocked Pelican case that can sustain us for at least a week and handle most medical emergencies that are not life threatening. We have an evacuation plan in place, and we have practiced it on the ground. It is said that in a ditching you most likely will take only what is on your person, but we have the advantage of two doors, so the plan is if the engine fails, she climbs into the back of the Lance, braces in a rearward facing seat, opens the rear door just before touchdown and when the plane stops forward motion, she tosses the raft out and dives in after it. I toss the ditch kit out the front door and dive out after it, we inflate our vests, inflate and enter the raft, then go after the ditch kit. If I can manage, I will tow the ditch kit with me to the raft.

I feel the odds are so remote that my engine will fail during the one single hour or less I am out of gliding distance to land, that I will take my family with me. We also keep constant lookout for ships around us, so we always know roughly where the last one was, and we will head that way if need be. This year we are taking our son with us, which obviously changes the plan a bit, but the key factor is that we feel it is safe enough to take him with us. Be prepared, be aware, maintain your plane, and enjoy the trip. Like someone said, Dave I think, the plane does not know it is over water, and if you don't look down, neither do you! :)

Now the fact I live in FL, fly often to the Bahamas and Grand Cayman, as well as down to the keys, the overwater part does not frighten me. Why? Because it is no longer the great unknown - and things almost always seem worse in your imagination than they do in real life.

The other advantage you have is 5 planes travelling together. Use 123.45 for interplane communications, and stay in touch with each other. If someone has problems, you can set up a S&R to keep track of the distress aircraft, one plane to watch the distress aircraft at a lower altitude, one higher up on scene "command" plane to radio and coordinate rescue until the coast guard or someone arrive for help.

Just my .02 worth.
 
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