Flying over a TFR

labbadabba

labbadabba

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labbadabba
Hello all -

Newly minted PPL in the Kansas City area and my first post at PoA. For my first flight with PAX I am planning a flight next Thursday to give my dad an aerial tour of the city. One of the points of interest would involve a flight near the Sports Complex where the Royals will be playing a game.

The stadium lies under the 4,000 MSL floor of the MCI Bravo but the TFR for sporting events is 3,000 AGL which would encroach on the Bravo floor.

Would it be wise of me to request clearance into the Bravo to overfly the stadiums or am I playing fire getting anywhere near a TFR?

Thanks!
 
triple check to make sure the TFR is actually in effect when you fly. For sporting events the TFR isn't 24/7/365 for that area - it's usually some timeframe around when the game is actually played.

If you are flying during the TFR I'd highly recommend flight following for guidance, but for me personally, I'd play it safe and stay away from it.
 
Welcome ,check the time the TFR is active. If you want to play around the Bravo,get flight following,and bravo clearance,tell the controller what you want to do.
 
Thanks and thanks!

The TFR will definitely be in effect as we're doing an evening flight. (just the way my schedule works with the availability of the plane)

I might try FF and get into the Bravo (as these things go, the MCI Bravo is pretty tame, exp compared to the NYC TRACON where I started my training), they're usually pretty accommodating.

That said, I don't think my dad wants to see how well I can fly in formation with a F-16...
 
I'd suggest staying away from it. "Newly minted pilot" doesn't jive well with the extra workload involved in transiting the Bravo and the stadium TFR, not to mention night flight if this is late enough. There will be plenty of time for you to stretch your envelope and do new things. Indeed you're already doing something new in this flight, you have your first passenger with you as PIC. That sounds like enough to me. Kansas City isn't going anywhere and neither are the Royals. Do that another day when you've a bit more experience under your belt.

Oh, and welcome to POA.
 
Why not start out from the southeast (like around Warrensburg) and file a plan to MKC at 4500, get FF from Whiteman Approach, then get cleared into the bravo, fly over Kauffman, then land at MKC and get a taxi to take you to Grady's for some mutton BBQ?

Like you said, the MCI bravo is pretty quiet.
 
labbadabba said:
Hello all -

Newly minted PPL in the Kansas City area and my first post at PoA. For my first flight with PAX I am planning a flight next Thursday to give my dad an aerial tour of the city. One of the points of interest would involve a flight near the Sports Complex where the Royals will be playing a game.

The stadium lies under the 4,000 MSL floor of the MCI Bravo but the TFR for sporting events is 3,000 AGL which would encroach on the Bravo floor.

Would it be wise of me to request clearance into the Bravo to overfly the stadiums or am I playing fire getting anywhere near a TFR?

Thanks!
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TFR override controlled airspace definition. There is no encroachment of Bravo, the TFR defines its own parameters that you MUST obey. ATC cannot give you permission to violate the TFR.
 
I'm just a student and haven't flown in bravo, but how much more work is it really? You talk on the radio, tell them what you want, and follow instructions.:confused: They might say no, but I've been turned down before.

OP, I'd like to hear how it goes. My first time ever in a ga aircraft was a young eagles flight sightseeing over kc in a citabria. We flew over a Royals game and the then under construction speedway. That's when the seed was planted.
 
CTLSi said:
TFR override controlled airspace definition. There is no encroachment of Bravo, the TFR defines its own parameters that you MUST obey. ATC cannot give you permission to violate the TFR.
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Actually, the Stadium NOTAM specifically allows ATC to do what they need to:
THE RESTRICTIONS DO NOT APPLY TO THOSE AIRCRAFT AUTHORIZED BY AND IN CONTACT WITH ATC FOR OPERATIONAL OR SAFETY OF FLIGHT PURPOSES,

I guess technically they're not letting you 'violate' the TFR because it's written right in the TFR.
 
JoeFromKS said:
I'm just a student and haven't flown in bravo, but how much more work is it really? You talk on the radio, tell them what you want, and follow instructions.:confused: They might say no, but I've been turned down before.

OP, I'd like to hear how it goes. My first time ever in a ga aircraft was a young eagles flight sightseeing over kc in a citabria. We flew over a Royals game and the then under construction speedway. That's when the seed was planted.
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Not that much to most of us. You are correct, you just do what the controllers tell you. Then again, if you aren't used to some one telling you what to do (and not correcting you when you do it wrong) that can be an obstacle. For someone who just learned to fly, it can be quite an obstacle. Still, you have to do it for the first time eventually. However, add in a TFR (violation of which has fairly egregious consequences) and it starts to sound a bit dicey. Now, throw in your first ever passenger (and someone you are likely trying to impress, being your old man 'n all) and it sounds (to me, at least) prohibitive.
 
CTLSi said:
TFR override controlled airspace definition. There is no encroachment of Bravo, the TFR defines its own parameters that you MUST obey. ATC cannot give you permission to violate the TFR.
Click to expand...

Umm, yes they can. Read the stadium TFR NOTAM.

THE RESTRICTIONS DO NOT APPLY TO THOSE AIRCRAFT AUTHORIZED BY AND IN CONTACT WITH ATC FOR OPERATIONAL OR SAFETY OF FLIGHT PURPOSES, DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE, LAW ENFORCEMENT, AND AIR AMBULANCE FLIGHT OPERATIONS.
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If that weren't the case, flying into KOAK during an A's game would really suck. The TFR encloses all the runways, so that would require closing the airport during every home game. It's not like that.
 
JoeFromKS said:
I'm just a student and haven't flown in bravo, but how much more work is it really? You talk on the radio, tell them what you want, and follow instructions.:confused: They might say no, but I've been turned down before.
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It's a nonissue as long as you know where you are and hold to the restrictions given. There is a lot of radio traffic, but most of it is not to you.

I don't know why some people get all scared.
 
Thanks, I've seen a lot of discussion on bravo here and other places, and have been wondering about that.
 
I have done this one a lot. What airport are you flying from?

Check and see if there is even a game happening, there may not be a TFR when you want to go.

I typically go from IXD to MKC, head out east and down around by LongView lake and back to IXD. I stay out of the bravo, but tell Approach what I am doing and stay with them.

You did get training in the Bravo airspace, right?
 
Yep, have Bravo training in MCI Bravo as well as the NYC Bravo (started out at HPN and CDW).

I'm based at IXD so I was thinking about heading over to Sunflower ammunition (my dad did some work out there and it's a cool site anyway) and then tracking back over Olathe and Overland Park across midtown/plaza district then over to the stadiums, circle back to MKC and then back to IXD.

Or maybe I should just avoid it and just enjoy the damn flight, lol...
 
steingar said:
I'd suggest staying away from it. "Newly minted pilot" doesn't jive well with the extra workload involved in transiting the Bravo and the stadium TFR, not to mention night flight if this is late enough. There will be plenty of time for you to stretch your envelope and do new things. Indeed you're already doing something new in this flight, you have your first passenger with you as PIC. That sounds like enough to me. Kansas City isn't going anywhere and neither are the Royals. Do that another day when you've a bit more experience under your belt..
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^^^ THIS ^^^
 
Never flown in a Bravo but from the sounds of it unless you are trying to get into and out of MCI during a heavy traffic time it is not much worse than a Charlie.

Every flight I take with friends and family is into a Charlie including my first one with a passenger.

Go for it.
 
Flying in bravo is not a big deal
As a new pilot, student pilot, it is going to add stress.

I am VERY cautious about flying through the Bravo at night because they may kick you out of it.

I have told this story before but I was irritated as hell one night well past dark.
They cleared me in at 3500. within 30 seconds they were telling me:

"make your altitude at or below 3000"
"make your altitude at or below 2500"
"make your altitude at or below 2000 and remain clear of the Class B"

So now I am flying at night at 1700 feet over the city.

If I thought they would do that, I would have flown around it.
I don't fly that low at night.
 
Not that I'd bust it intentionally, but I'm guessing that nobody would even notice (or care) unless you buzzed, dive bombed, or repeatedly circled the stadium.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Flying in bravo is not a big deal
As a new pilot, student pilot, it is going to add stress.

I am VERY cautious about flying through the Bravo at night because they may kick you out of it.

I have told this story before but I was irritated as hell one night well past dark.
They cleared me in at 3500. within 30 seconds they were telling me:

"make your altitude at or below 3000"
"make your altitude at or below 2500"
"make your altitude at or below 2000 and remain clear of the Class B"

So now I am flying at night at 1700 feet over the city.

If I thought they would do that, I would have flown around it.
I don't fly that low at night.
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Your in DFW right? I can see why they did that. The OP is in Kansas City which is a pretty non threatening Bravo. FWIW I've never been denied or kicked out of the NY Bravo at any time of the day. But I'm sure it's very different where you are from. I would suggest the OP carefully read the NOTAM or like others have suggested, fly a different day.
 
For a baseball game it is squawkng and talking. That means, be in communication on an assigned code and don't plan on making 360's over the stadium. You can easily pass through the TFR, just don't plan on loitering.

Sounds like the Bravo is even a non factor if you're below it. TFR's come in many flavors, but a regular season MLB game is nothing to worry about ESPECIALLY if it isn't within the Bravo.

You can absolutely overfly Kaufmann Stadium even IN the TFR (within the limits of the FAR/AIM altitude wise) if you're on flight following with the ATC facility that owns that airspace (unless you start turning circles like I mentioned).

I do this as a controller about 100 times a year, it isn't a huge deal.
 
CTLSi said:
TFR override controlled airspace definition. There is no encroachment of Bravo, the TFR defines its own parameters that you MUST obey. ATC cannot give you permission to violate the TFR.
Click to expand...

I can give permission to transit the TFR depending on the situation or based on established rules. In the case of a ball game, its pretty clearly defined as on an assigned code and in communication. I've also been on the ground at an airshow and given Lifeguards clearance through the show box after proper coordination.

Our 7110.65 1-1-1 (first paragraph) gives us wide latitude. So much so that the rest of the book (and the AIM and the FARs) can be thrown out the window when invoked.
 
If they have a VFR corridor, you can fly it and not talk to anybody.

Not that I'd do that, but you can if you trust yourself enough to hold your heading(coarse) and altitude closely. Otherwise, stay away from the red circles. Red circles bad. Red MOA's maybe bad. Red terrain, bad. Pretty much all the red stuff on your Garmin. Bad.

Away from it you should stay....mmmmm...yes. :yesnod:

Yoda.jpg
 
You don't need to enter bravo, but I suggest you talk to approach. If you are flying from IXD downtown to mkc first, be very careful about busting the 3k bravo shelf southwest of kmkc, people bust that all the time, and it gets noticed.... What are you flying out of IXD?
 
--- "Newly minted PPL in the Kansas City area .. For my first flight with PAX"

While I'm never disappointed in the amount of bravado displayed on POA, suggesting to the pilot describe above that it's not a huge deal flying through an active TFR... now that is priceless.

Not what the OP wants to hear, but one step at a time. Your first flight with a PAX is going to be stressful enough without all the hoop jumping I'm reading here. Take him on a sightseeing tour of the countryside away from any active airfields.

BTW, nobody bothered to mention why class B is class B. LOT's of air traffic. And he's going to be constantly distracted by both that passenger and ATC? Come on folks... be real here. Possible? Yes. Good idea? Hell no.
 
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I am going to agree with Jeff, I missed that this was also his first passenger flight.

Just take him up for a short flight and show him the southern part of the city. Sunflower, Hillsdale, maybe east toward LXT or something. hell, he may puke before you get out of the Delta airspace :)
 
If you have a GPS with the class B depicted, and you want to overfly the stadium, then overfly the stadium and comply with the TFR restriction for it. You don't need to talk to anyone, you don't need to get a code, you don't need to do anything but have your txp set to mode C and fly where you want, when you want. I do it all the time. Don't make flying complicated.
 
docmirror said:
If you have a GPS with the class B depicted, and you want to overfly the stadium, then overfly the stadium and comply with the TFR restriction for it. You don't need to talk to anyone, you don't need to get a code, you don't need to do anything but have your txp set to mode C and fly where you want, when you want. I do it all the time. Don't make flying complicated.
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In this case he cannot comply with the TFR, and stay out of the bravo, unless he is talking to atc. Ground is at 1100 and bravo starts at 4k
 
ja_user said:
In this case he cannot comply with the TFR, and stay out of the bravo, unless he is talking to atc. Ground is at 1100 and bravo starts at 4k
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Then go around, or call them.
 
I wouldn't say your playing with fire, just check up on the TFR before you head out, if you have to, just get a clearance into the bravo.
 
Thanks all -

I think those advocating prudence probably have the right of this. I'm not terribly worried about my passenger (my dad) as he's had a lot of flights in GA aircraft. I think he'd rather just experience the thrill of flying with his son than seeing me push boundaries. I have nothing to prove to him other than my ability to safely get us back on the ground.

The advice regarding the airspace was most helpful though, thank you.

Sam - I fly with IXDFlyers so it's generally a well loved '56 172 or a more well loved 172F. When my pockets feel heavier then I'll spring for the 175 or DA40.
 
Were it me I'd find a nearby airfield with a diner and good pie and let my dad take me out to lunch. One of my favorite ways to do introductory flights.
 
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