Flying for Work, kinda....

Rob Schaffer

Rob Schaffer

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Interesting situation popped up today at work. I was asked to go to Greenwich CT for a structural analysis of an existing building and survey. They said they have gone up before by train from Philadelphia to Stanford, rented a car, and drove down to Greenwich. The architect has driven before, about 3 1/2 hrs each way he stated. On the whim, I said I was a private pilot and that would only be an little more than an hour flight. :)

So,.. I'm not sure if it is allowed yet from a work standpoint, but I don't see any reason I can't fly up to HPN, get a ride or rental from there to the town to do my work, get back to the airport and fly from HPN back to Wings (LOM). I wouldn't be getting paid to fly up there, I'd be paying my own way that day, but I may be able to get reimbursed for some or all? of it? If I drove, they reimburse .56 cents per mile, which makes good 100LL money later. They would buy the train tickets and rent the car,...

Any thoughts on this?

I'm thinking a C172SP from KLOM, thru/over the NY Bravo? Or, if denied, up the West side of the Bravo and around the top, at 2700 across the top and getting clearance to HPN when I cross the river,.. seems like a good calling point.

Hopefully I can find out tomorrow, as there are still rentals available later this week and Mon/Tues next week.
 
If you're paying for the flying, its definitely allowed.
If they're helping you with any of the costs or covering the whole thing, I THINK it's still allowed. It certainly would be a much easier means of getting there! That seems like a perfect use of GA to me. Nothing pleases me more than flying over gridlocked traffic on my way somewhere! I hope it works out for you. You should certainly not use me as your authorizing source.
 
Rob Schaffer said:
Interesting situation popped up today at work. I was asked to go to Greenwich CT for a structural analysis of an existing building and survey. They said they have gone up before by train from Philadelphia to Stanford, rented a car, and drove down to Greenwich. The architect has driven before, about 3 1/2 hrs each way he stated. On the whim, I said I was a private pilot and that would only be an little more than an hour flight. :)

So,.. I'm not sure if it is allowed yet from a work standpoint, but I don't see any reason I can't fly up to HPN, get a ride or rental from there to the town to do my work, get back to the airport and fly from HPN back to Wings (LOM). I wouldn't be getting paid to fly up there, I'd be paying my own way that day, but I may be able to get reimbursed for some or all? of it? If I drove, they reimburse .56 cents per mile, which makes good 100LL money later. They would buy the train tickets and rent the car,...

Any thoughts on this?

I'm thinking a C172SP from KLOM, thru/over the NY Bravo? Or, if denied, up the West side of the Bravo and around the top, at 2700 across the top and getting clearance to HPN when I cross the river,.. seems like a good calling point.

Hopefully I can find out tomorrow, as there are still rentals available later this week and Mon/Tues next week.
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Rob,

Many (maybe most?) employers do not have insurance on employee personal flying and won't accept the risk.

"Hold Harmless" agreements are worth the paper they are printed on in Pennsylvania.

If you ask your employer, you may be told "no," and thus if you fly anyway, will place your employment in jeopardy.

If you fly and don't tell them, and simply ask for mileage reimbursement, you are risking your employment if you are found out.

AOPA has some (now dated) justification white papers. Good luck and I hope it works out for you!

Dan
 
It is allowed--you can even bring a co-worked along. Not only that, you can be fully reimbursed. The main thing is that you are not being employed as a pilot, you are not making an additional money for it, your purpose for the trip isn't just as a pilot--but as fulfilling an actual role.

For example, me flying a company executive to a big meeting while I sit at the airport and read PoA is a no-no.

Now if I happened to need to go somewhere--lets say to meet a vendor for lunch while discussing some business matter--I could fly there and the company could pay for all of it. I could also bring along a co-worker.

As far as if the company will allow you, I've found that it's usually a non-issue in the smaller non-public companies. The big ones? Forget it.
 
jesse said:
It is allowed--you can even bring a co-worked along. Not only that, you can be fully reimbursed. The main thing is that you are not being employed as a pilot, you are not making an additional money for it, your purpose for the trip isn't just as a pilot--but as fulfilling an actual role.

For example, me flying a company executive to a big meeting while I sit at the airport and read PoA is a no-no.

Now if I happened to need to go somewhere--lets say to meet a vendor for lunch while discussing some business matter--I could fly there and the company could pay for all of it. I could also bring along a co-worker.

As far as if the company will allow you, I've found that it's usually a non-issue in the smaller non-public companies. The big ones? Forget it.
Click to expand...

Those are FAA private pilot/ operator rules.

The bigger hurdle will be corporate liability.
 
Yes, you can. The flying is incidental to work. You can be reimbursed actual expenses for the trip (fuel, oil, landing fees, etc).

My guess is that it wouldn't save much time compared to the Acela, and it probably would work out about even cost-wise compared to the train - depending on what kind of plane you fly (DC-NY in my Commander is about a wash compared to Acela cost-wise, and pretty close time-wise flying to TEB or HPN). If weather goes down, the train wins - hands down. (but... flying is a lot more fun).

Whether the company allows it or not is a different matter. I've worked for companies that allow it... and I know of a lot that don't.
 
dmccormack said:
Those are FAA private pilot/ operator rules.

The bigger hurdle will be corporate liability.
Click to expand...
He wasn't asking about the corporate rules--he was asking about the FAA rules. I also touched on the corporate liability side.
 
Take the train and make the 100LL money! The possibility of bad weather ruining a time sensitive trip would suck.
 
AWACSEng said:
Take the train and make the 100LL money! The possibility of bad weather ruining a time sensitive trip would suck.
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That's kind of defeatest:dunno:. My goal in life (slight exaggeration for effect) is to find opportunities to fly when someone else is paying for it.

To OP. Rob, do it. Ask questions later.
 
I'm still checking on the corporate rules, but if the weather is nice it's a good opportunity to get some good experience and have fun, during a work day. They were talking about this Friday, so traffic wouldn't be fun to deal with, but I would get miles reimbursement.

Even if they won't reimburse, but don't mind me flying, I might still do it.

We'll see what tomorrow holds. Thanks for the info guys.
 
Legal, for sure. I'll focus on the navigation/flying aspects of the trip towards NY:

Go direct to Sandy Hook (use COL as a reference to get you on the right direction) and get a class Bravo clearance up the river to the Tappanzee bridge at 1500 or 2000. I have never been denied a bravo clearance up or down the river as long as my transmissions were professional and brief. It's much easier than trying to negotiate through the bravo at 3500 or 5500 which is often when they will start to vector you all over the place and/or climb/descend you. Going over the Bravo doesn't help much since you'll have to descend into it to make it somewhat economical.

Call NY Approach on 132.80 around Colts Neck for clearance into the Bravo at 3,000. Either METRO sector (32.8) or EWR TCA (127.85) will drop you to 1500 or 2000 for the transition. Once you get up to the Tap, NOBBI sector (126.4) will assign you pattern entry and will hand you off to HPN tower (118.57).

Getting to Greenwich is easy from HPN. Just hop on the Merritt one or two exits. The airport sits literally just west of Greenwich line.

Piece of cake. It gets easier once you do it again and again dozens of times. :D
 
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Rob Schaffer said:
I'm still checking on the corporate rules, but if the weather is nice it's a good opportunity to get some good experience and have fun, during a work day. They were talking about this Friday, so traffic wouldn't be fun to deal with, but I would get miles reimbursement.

Even if they won't reimburse, but don't mind me flying, I might still do it.

We'll see what tomorrow holds. Thanks for the info guys.
Click to expand...

If they don't reimburse, you're 100% fine -- the company would have no liability exposure.
 
Jason has good advice. Just to be clear, HPN is one of those Class D towers that wants you to contact approach prior to contacting the tower. So, regardless of whether you fly the Hudson or around the western edge of the Bravo, call NYApproach for sequencing into the Delta.

-Skip
 
dmccormack said:
If they don't reimburse, you're 100% fine -- the company would have no liability exposure.
Click to expand...
That's wrong. If you are driving or flying somewhere on company business the company is totally exposed to damages that you might cause. Commuting is an exception. Smart companies maintain liability insurance for this kind of exposure, but it is frequently limited to driving and won't cover flying. That's why you need to ask the insurance department. Follow the money... the injured or their heirs will sue the company.

-Skip
 
Skip Miller said:
That's wrong. If you are driving or flying somewhere on company business the company is totally exposed to damages that you might cause. Commuting is an exception. Follow the money... they will sue the company.

-Skip
Click to expand...

Not necessarily.

Driving is covered under (most) company liability policies.

If you don't take reimbursement and drive or fly or bicycle somewhere on your own time, there's no link to the company.

Although if it it went to trial, I'd agree you or your estate would need to show that the trip was coincidental, and not the sole purpose of the travel. Thus having relatives nearby may provide justification.

Still, in any case, as you say, those seeking damages will go after the deepest pockets.
 
First step would be check with Human Resources, and get it everthing in writing. If you are an AOPA member, get them to also review any contracts, waivers, or papers your company may want you to sign. My experience has been that it pays to be prepared for the day(s) that such a trip may be possible, but never rush into it on a whim.
 
dmccormack said:
If they don't reimburse, you're 100% fine -- the company would have no liability exposure.
Click to expand...
Not so. If you're on company time/business, the company has "vicarious liability" whether you're getting reimbursed for the flying or not. And that's why companies fire people who secretly fly on company business after being told not to.
 
dmccormack said:
If you don't take reimbursement and drive or fly or bicycle somewhere on your own time, there's no link to the company.
Click to expand...
This is totally, completely wrong. If you go on company business, the company is vicariously liable. Particularly for salaried employees, there's no such thing as "traveling on your own time" to get somewhere for work. The company remains liable to third parties for your actions and for workman's comp if you get hurt.
 
Rob Schaffer said:
So,.. I'm not sure if it is allowed yet from a work standpoint, but I don't see any reason I can't fly up to HPN, get a ride or rental from there to the town to do my work, get back to the airport and fly from HPN back to Wings (LOM).
Click to expand...
There is no FAA reason you can't do that. Just make sure your company is OK with it.
I wouldn't be getting paid to fly up there, I'd be paying my own way that day,
Click to expand...
Unless you're an independent contractor, you're still collecting your salary, so you are getting paid for the day, but 61.113(b) says that's OK for flying incidental to your job, as this is.
but I may be able to get reimbursed for some or all? of it?
Click to expand...
As far as the FAA is concerned, you can collect full reimbursement for the rental cost of the plane as well as any parking fees.
I'm thinking a C172SP from KLOM, thru/over the NY Bravo? Or, if denied, up the West side of the Bravo and around the top, at 2700 across the top and getting clearance to HPN when I cross the river,.. seems like a good calling point.
Click to expand...
Seems like a good plan. Get flight following all the way and a handoff to NY TRACON to smooth the deal.
 
Ron Levy said:
This is totally, completely wrong. If you go on company business, the company is vicariously liable. Particularly for salaried employees, there's no such thing as "traveling on your own time" to get somewhere for work. The company remains liable to third parties for your actions and for workman's comp if you get hurt.
Click to expand...

That's the difference -- are you "getting somewhere for work"?

If the entire reason for the trip is work -- you arrive before a meeting, you depart right after -- you are clearly traveling for work.

But if you fly up the evening before and visit with family that is your time.
 
dmccormack said:
That's the difference -- are you "getting somewhere for work"?

If the entire reason for the trip is work -- you arrive before a meeting, you depart right after -- you are clearly traveling for work.

But if you fly up the evening before and visit with family that is your time.
Click to expand...
Piece of advice, Dan -- don't bet your job on that idea.
 
Another piece of advice, Dan...don't let your job control your happiness or the way you want to live your life.
 
Rob Schaffer said:
Interesting situation popped up today at work. I was asked to go to Greenwich CT for a structural analysis of an existing building and survey. They said they have gone up before by train from Philadelphia to Stanford, rented a car, and drove down to Greenwich. The architect has driven before, about 3 1/2 hrs each way he stated. On the whim, I said I was a private pilot and that would only be an little more than an hour flight. :)

So,.. I'm not sure if it is allowed yet from a work standpoint, but I don't see any reason I can't fly up to HPN, get a ride or rental from there to the town to do my work, get back to the airport and fly from HPN back to Wings (LOM). I wouldn't be getting paid to fly up there, I'd be paying my own way that day, but I may be able to get reimbursed for some or all? of it? If I drove, they reimburse .56 cents per mile, which makes good 100LL money later. They would buy the train tickets and rent the car,...

Any thoughts on this?

I'm thinking a C172SP from KLOM, thru/over the NY Bravo? Or, if denied, up the West side of the Bravo and around the top, at 2700 across the top and getting clearance to HPN when I cross the river,.. seems like a good calling point.

Hopefully I can find out tomorrow, as there are still rentals available later this week and Mon/Tues next week.
Click to expand...

By FAA Standards, it is legal to do it in the manner you are describing -- they are going to have to pay for you to travel to perform the duties of your job regardless of your mode of transportation.

The company policy will be the determining factor here, though. A lot of companies I have heard of that allow employees to fly themselves somewhere for work require that the person have Commercial and at least an Instrument Rating. You'll just have to check with HR to see how they feel about it. If they don't already have a policy in place for this type of thing, it could be a good opportunity for you to get them 'in the know' on this GA thing.
 
dmccormack said:
The line is grey on this one, not absolute.
Click to expand...
It ain't that gray. I can show plenty of case law that says the company is vicariously liable when you're traveling on business. You have any case law that says the company isn't liable when you travel to/from work assignments during what is normally your non-duty time?
 
Ron Levy said:
It ain't that gray. I can show plenty of case law that says the company is vicariously liable when you're traveling on business. You have any case law that says the company isn't liable when you travel to/from work assignments during what is normally your non-duty time?
Click to expand...

If I travel near a workplace on my own time (Saturday, for example), and stay with family, visit the work site on Monday, take Tuesday off for sightseeing, and then travel back Tuesday afternoon - is that a work trip?

No -- it's multiple purpose and cannot be construed as company time.
 
Well guys, in my case, I'd be travelling to and from in the same day for the direct purpose of work, and the Human Resources department has not come to a conclusion on this at this time, but is not taking chances for this trip,... so,.. looks like I may drive and get reimbursed for miles on my personal car,.. giving me about $160 for rental/fuel on another day. Seems like a good way for me to take my wife to Cape May for a day.

Thanks for the input though. We are discussing it further here at work and I'll see what happens.
 
Rob Schaffer said:
Well guys, in my case, I'd be travelling to and from in the same day for the direct purpose of work, and the Human Resources department has not come to a conclusion on this at this time, but is not taking chances for this trip,... so,.. looks like I may drive and get reimbursed for miles on my personal car,.. giving me about $160 for rental/fuel on another day. Seems like a good way for me to take my wife to Cape May for a day.

Thanks for the input though. We are discussing it further here at work and I'll see what happens.
Click to expand...

This may be a good chance to check with AOPA and see if they have any examples of other corporate policies on using GA for company travel. Strike while the iron is hot. ;)
 
dmccormack said:
If I travel near a workplace on my own time (Saturday, for example), and stay with family, visit the work site on Monday, take Tuesday off for sightseeing, and then travel back Tuesday afternoon - is that a work trip?

No -- it's multiple purpose and cannot be construed as company time.
Click to expand...
And you have case law to that effect to cite if you crash and hurt a third party on Tuesday PM and the third party sues your employer? If not, then it ain't gray at all.
 
dmccormack said:
If they don't reimburse, you're 100% fine -- the company would have no liability exposure.
Click to expand...


Don't count on THAT! The employee was flying on company business. The company will certainly be named in a lawsuit once that fact comes to light. They MAY duck liability IF they have a policy against employees piloting aircraft on company business, and IF they promptly fire the employee when they discover he violated the policy.
 
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dmccormack said:
If I travel near a workplace on my own time (Saturday, for example), and stay with family, visit the work site on Monday, take Tuesday off for sightseeing, and then travel back Tuesday afternoon - is that a work trip?

No -- it's multiple purpose and cannot be construed as company time.
Click to expand...

If you had an accident on the Sunday when you were "off", you can argue that was not work related. The days you travel up and back are CERTAINLY work related.
 
TMetzinger said:
If you had an accident on the Sunday when you were "off", you can argue that was not work related. The days you travel up and back are CERTAINLY work related.
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All of this presumes a pilot flying contrary to company policy.

In my first reply to the OP I suggested Rob check with his company, as many (if not most) prohibit private flight on business due to liability concerns.

There may be ways around company policies, but all entail some risk. I suppose if you want to ensure you always have an ironclad case should your actions go to court, you will never fly when it may be construed as business related.
 
Rob Schaffer said:
Interesting situation popped up today at work. I was asked to go to Greenwich CT for a structural analysis of an existing building and survey. They said they have gone up before by train from Philadelphia to Stanford, rented a car, and drove down to Greenwich. The architect has driven before, about 3 1/2 hrs each way he stated. On the whim, I said I was a private pilot and that would only be an little more than an hour flight. :)

So,.. I'm not sure if it is allowed yet from a work standpoint, but I don't see any reason I can't fly up to HPN, get a ride or rental from there to the town to do my work, get back to the airport and fly from HPN back to Wings (LOM). I wouldn't be getting paid to fly up there, I'd be paying my own way that day, but I may be able to get reimbursed for some or all? of it? If I drove, they reimburse .56 cents per mile, which makes good 100LL money later. They would buy the train tickets and rent the car,...

Any thoughts on this?

I'm thinking a C172SP from KLOM, thru/over the NY Bravo? Or, if denied, up the West side of the Bravo and around the top, at 2700 across the top and getting clearance to HPN when I cross the river,.. seems like a good calling point.

Hopefully I can find out tomorrow, as there are still rentals available later this week and Mon/Tues next week.
Click to expand...

Fully legal to be completely compensated and to accept your salary/hourly wage while doing such. This is what "Business Incidental" is all about.
 
dmccormack said:
All of this presumes a pilot flying contrary to company policy.
Click to expand...

Worst case, the pilot looks for a policy, doesn't find one, and flies. When the accident ensues, the pilot believes that "anything not specifically forbidden is permitted", while the company thinks "anything not specifically permitted is forbidden". Now everybody is being sued and the pilot and company aren't on the same page.

So, I'll take your advice further. Get permission from the employer to fly on company business, IN WRITING.
 
TMetzinger said:
Worst case, the pilot looks for a policy, doesn't find one, and flies. When the accident ensues, the pilot believes that "anything not specifically forbidden is permitted", while the company thinks "anything not specifically permitted is forbidden". Now everybody is being sued and the pilot and company aren't on the same page.

So, I'll take your advice further. Get permission from the employer to fly on company business, IN WRITING.
Click to expand...

It's more than just permission -- the company will want a rider to the corporate insurance policy for liability coverage.

Good luck with that these days....
 
dmccormack said:
It's more than just permission -- the company will want a rider to the corporate insurance policy for liability coverage.

Good luck with that these days....
Click to expand...

Good grief. What a sad situation this describes. One of the reasons I started my own business.
 
The FAA rules have already been covered.

Since the company policy is not clear, you are making the right choice to not fly for this trip. It was advised that you work with HR to get a good policy in place. That may work, or may not, depending on if anyone in HR (or anyone else with power and influence) is predisposed for or against it, and what their insurance carrier says. While many will assume that you can't get insurance, your company's insurance carrier may not have a problem with it at all. It depends.

I have no private-sector experience with this, but the University I work for has a private pilot travel program. They have established rules designed to limited their risk and try and ensure a safe outcome. If your company wants examples of rules, these might be of use to you: http://www.bussvc.wisc.edu/risk_mgt/pilot.html

One last point: the trip you proposed seemed reasonable, but from both an aviation and company point of view, you need to consider where you mind will be. While flying, you want to be able to concentrate on flying, and not be worrying about a business meeting (or angry about it afterwards, while flying home).

And at the meeting, the company wants you to be able to focus on business, and not be worried about your flight home...

--david
 
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