Flying club? The good, the bad, the ugly???

georgewdean

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George Dean
I am investigating a couple flying clubs here in the Dallas tx area.

What advice do you have regarding clubs??

Why join a club over purely renting??

George
 
Key word: Belonged. ;)

The issue with clubs, you are fighting with other members for the plane just like yu are with renters. You also have the issue of arguments on what maintenance or upgrades should be done to the planes.

On the other side of the coin, some clubs have more than one plane so that if one does go down for maintenance there are others to use.

Me personally, I never bothered looking at clubs because I did not want to share or fight with other people for having the plane on big weekends.
 
And I couldn't have cared less about the weekends, since my flying was Monday through Thursday. All you're doing with any shared ownership is spreading the fixed and capital costs among the group. If that's worthwhile, you should look into it. If not, do something else.

Key word: Belonged. ;)

The issue with clubs, you are fighting with other members for the plane just like yu are with renters. You also have the issue of arguments on what maintenance or upgrades should be done to the planes.

On the other side of the coin, some clubs have more than one plane so that if one does go down for maintenance there are others to use.

Me personally, I never bothered looking at clubs because I did not want to share or fight with other people for having the plane on big weekends.
 
I am on the board of a club in Los Angeles with about 120 members. I would say first of all it depends on the specific club and the specific FBO but in general a well run club should have on the plus side:


  • Be a bit less expensive because they are non-profit and they use volunteer (member) labor for some things.
  • Give the members more say in how things are run.
  • Have more opportunities to get involved in the "ownership aspect" of aircraft, better preparing you for buying your own.
  • Usually the insurance is more member oriented. For example the members and instructors are named insured on our policy whereas they are covered by the open pilot part of most FBOs.
On the plus side for an FBO:

  • No dues, deposit or buy in (at least if I'm renting from them)
Like I said a lot of it depends on the club and the FBO not all are created equal.

Joe
 
I did all of my PP training through a club that owned 6 planes - 152, 172, PA28-180, PA28-181, C-177RG, C-210. It was great opportunity to get time in different types of aircraft. I did all of my initial training in the 152 ($35/hr wet in 2000) and got a lot of complex time in the 177RG for $76/hr wet which has helped in renting complex planes since leaving the club. There were 160 'dues paying' members, but <20 were actually flying on a semi-regular basis, so scheduling usually wasn't too much of an issue. It was actually a corporation of some sort where the members bought 'stock' in the corporation which enabled the club to keep rates quite low compared to local FBO rental rates.

The downside was that maintenance costs were spread out across the 'fleet', so it was difficult to keep EVERY plane in tip-top condition. The mx dollars were used to put out the biggest problem at the time, so a lot of stuff never really got 'fixed', just 'patched'.

Overall, it was a good experience, but I'm not sure I would join THAT club today - they have some internal issues and mx issues to deal with. Before joining the club, go look at the actual planes as if you are doing a pre-buy (basically you ARE buying at least a part of the plane). Also, sit in on a club meeting to see how the personalities within the club gel - every brood has a rooster and you want to know ahead of time how loud he crows.
 
Some more pluses:
- Our club has no daily minimum, so long trips are practical (nearest FBO has a 5 hour daily minimum on weekends)
- Our club has Bonanzas for $175/hr. FBO rents 172s for that (granted they're new and have G1000, but we've got IFR GPSs in our fleet)

If you want to fly every weekend, yeah, any shared ownership is probably not ideal. If you can fly during the week, I suspect you'll find that most clubs will have tons of availability then.
 
Spike Cutler belonged to a great club at ADS.

Key word: Belonged. ;)

The issue with clubs, you are fighting with other members for the plane just like you are with renters. You also have the issue of arguments on what maintenance or upgrades should be done to the planes.

The club has no "cast in stone" rules about minimum hours per day and thelike; it's a "don't be a jerk" standard, and my most routine mission involved me flying 1.2 hours to T82, spending a long weekend, and 1.2 hours back. That's a long time to tie up a Bonanza from use by others, and only fly it 2.5 or so.

On the other hand, if one has the urge to just go out and fly, there is virtually always a plane available on the spur of the moment.

The RFC planes are generally well-maintained, and are all well-equipped within their categories; all but the Cherokee have 430 or 530 and autopilots, and the Cherokee has a King KLN94. In four years or so of RFC-ing, I had only one MX-related scrub, and that was a squawk related to something which had been fixed, a "one of those things" deal.

On the other side of the coin, some clubs have more than one plane so that if one does go down for maintenance there are others to use.

Definitely the case here.

Me personally, I never bothered looking at clubs because I did not want to share or fight with other people for having the plane on big weekends.

Also, definitely an issue; big event weekends do book early.

I would think weekdays would be easier.

George

They are...

George:

I have attached (if it worked...) a screensnap of RFC's schedule page on a 30-day timeframe; as you can see, there is a whole lot of "white space" showing there, which translates into a lot of time available in the schedule. You'll also note that there are some "standby schedules," which means that, if someone has a plane scheduled at a time you want it, you can submit your standby and, if they cancel, you're in. Happens pretty often.

One finds that the club members are generally very cooperative in adjusting their schedules as soon as their needs change, to ensure that others can book.

What you should do, is come over some time and meet a member or two; the monthly meetings are the best way, always a good topic and you can meet some folks, but it can be arranged at other times. I am no longer an active member, but would be again if circumstances called for it.

---

Edit:

Image uploading failing- dunno why...
 
I've been in two clubs. One had about 50 members and 11 piston fixed wings. The other had two planes and 4 members. The larger club was better all around. Both offered a good plane/member ratio especially considering half the members flew not very often.

The downsides were basically the previous pilot. Not squawking a grounding item to leaving the plane a mess. Only a few times did I have to wait for an overdue plane or I was bumped from the schedule.

Another thing was one time I left a flight computer in the plane after a flight. Within hours I had quiered the next pilot, the flight desk, the CFIs...none copped to finding it.

Being in a club allows you to network and become familiar with other pilots including different CFIs.

If there is a central scheduler I think they should also be an active pilot so they will be more familiar with a pilot's concerns.
 
Here's the screensnap...
 

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IME there are more "bad" clubs than good ones but there are many good ones around the country and the best chance for finding one is near a major metro area.

Characteristics of a good club:

1. Large enough membership to afford several (at least 4) airplanes.
2. Multiple instructors involved in the club.
3. Managed by an elected board rather than by the members themselves.
4. Member's equity at least 50%.
5. Published and enforced scheduling/operating rules.
6. Well defined and adequate maintenance policies.
7. Maximum of (5 to 7+number of aircraft) members per airplane.
8. A well defined exit policy.
9. A vast majority of members are "active" (flying regularly).

Basis for above:

1. Ensures that downtime and schedule conflicts will have minimal impact on use.
2. Single CFI clubs put too much power in the instructor's hands. Worst case is a single CFI who also manages the club and/or owns the planes.
3. For any club with more than a handful of members, direct member control means very little gets done because the members cannot agree on anything.
4. When the members have a decent financial stake in the club they take better care of the planes due to pride of ownership. This also generally means the member's cannot get "upside down" before having their use restricted/curtailed.
5. A well written and fair usage policy minimizes conflicts and "hogging" but only if it's diligently enforced. Verbal agreements aren't worth the paper they're not written on.
6. Club planes tend to require a lot more maintenance than planes flown by only one or two pilots and any club that skimps on maintenance is stealing equity from the members. Shoddy maintenance will catch up with whoever happens to be a member at some future date.
7. The optimal number of members per airplane increases with the number of planes in the club. Variations exist for the type of plane used.
8. It's inevitable that members will come and go. You need to know exactly what's involved in getting out.
9. While it might seem desirable to have many members paying the costs who don't fly much (and compete for availability) there's a big downside in that those members will not want to maintain or upgrade the equipment.
 
I was a member of the Bay Area Aero Club in Houston, first at Houston Gulf Airport and then after its closure, at Clover Field (now Pearland Regional).

In this particular instance I felt the club was superior to a flight school, for numerous reasons. And I must state this was a true non profit club, not a flight-school-run entity that also uses the fleet for flight school instruction.

First was the aircraft. The club was 100% leaseback, and was somewhat picky about planes on the roster. We required 100 hr inspections even when they were not being used primarily for instruction, and while not required by the FAA, we also insisted the engines be below (or changed out at) TBO.

The owner was completely responsible for maintenance, at a mechanic of their choosing, at a location of their choosing. There was no maintenance scam going on, as may happen with lease backs to school owned flying clubs with in house maintenance. The panel contents likewise were the sole discretion of the owner. Some planes had two KX170's in them, and some planes had dual 430's. Most were somewhere in the middle, some with old GPS's and some pretty nifty ones in them.

The plane had to fly enough to justify its insurance premium. The club paid for the tiedown, or applied it toward hangar rent if the plane was hangared. The club provided in motion insurance, and I believe the owner provided hull. If a plane was constantly being squawked, and not addressed, or just in general barely getting by, the members voted with their feet by flying other planes, and after 2-3 months of not justifying its tiedown/insurance, we would drop a plane from its rolls. That being said, we had some long time birds on our roster.. A very pristine 150 that was kept clean enough you could eat off the engine. A 172 that wasn't pretty, but a solid performer. Full Silver Crown stack, flew 100 hrs a month and was on its fifth or sixth TBO'd engine with the club when it got its tail twisted by Hurricane Ike and she was scrapped. Why that plane wasn't flown away I will never know. The 170 had special checkout requirements, and was never groundlooped while it was in the club.. a rarity for rental taildraggers.

We had 200 members on the rolls, of whom half were 90 day current in club aircraft and about 15 of whom flew more than 10 hrs a month. We required 90 day currency in the most complex aircraft you intended to fly in our fleet, if you wanted to be covered under insurance, otherwise you went for a hop with an instructor. You went with one of our instructors every year as well, and it met the requirements of a BFR, and most members logged it as such. We weren't draconian about our application process, but we DID call your references, and we DID ask questions about your habits - responsibility, safety mindedness, paying bills on time. If someone was blatantly unsafe, or had disregard for the rules, they were booted - which was a very very rare event. BAAC billed monthly. Once you had established yourself as responsible, it was not uncommon to incur $1000-$1500 flying bills in a month (we are talking about when an Arrow went for $80/hr wet and avgas was under $3). We did not use credit cards at the time. Another "flying club" I was involved with had you pay by check by the flight, which I think was a better arrangement.

Our fleet varied from 4-10 aircraft. At various times we had a 150, 152, 2 172's, Pa 28-161, Cessna 170, Pa-28R200, M-20E, S35, an AA5B, a TB9, a 177B and a 177RG. I logged time in every one but the bonanza, which was gone (due to maintenance or lack thereof) by the time I was qualified to fly it. Membership consisted of an initiation fee and then about $30-40 a month dues. Aircraft were rented wet. You saved receipts if you fueled out. They reimbursed you at no more than the fuel cost at home, which was encouragement for finding cheap fuel. This was not a "buy in" member ownership type of situation. Wet rate was recalculated quarterly at a minimum, so the rates tended to stay close to the current fuel price, as incurred by the folks currently flying the plane.

Club instruction was by club instructors only, when in club aircraft. Someone tried to push that rule, and they were removed from membership immediately for having an outside instructor in the plane, then refusing to show their logbook regarding the flight. (We dont have the authority to demand your logbook like the Feds, but we sure don't have to let you use our fleet either..) We had one or two guys who would be available to be semi full time instructors but they were never the 20 year old timebuilders you see at flight schools. We had a half dozen guys who taught part time.. either semi retired or after their day job. My flight instructors were a retired owner of the 170, and his 170 partner who was a CFII, A&P IA, who was a retired aerospace engineer who used to work on the B2 long ago. He taught cause he liked it, not cause he needed the money.

We had some rules in place regarding long term rentals, and in the years I was in the club it only came into effect once, and was waived on request - an engineer took 3 weeks vacation and flew around the country.. logged 48 different states I believe.. but for the most part, any member could sign out any plane for up to a week.. when the fleet was short, long trips were discouraged. When the fleet was full, it wasn't uncommon for 3 of our birds to be at OSH. Because we weren't a flight school, 3 aircraft being gone over a week wasn't a big dent in the bottom line, and wasn't discouraged.

I took the arrow to Osh from Houston, I took the Tiger to Cleveland Ohio, and I flew various planes all over Texas and Lousiana, on trips that would have not been as welcome at flight schools intent on slamming out the engine and instructional hours. I worked nights at the time, and on my nights off (or if I got off early) I would rent the birds and take off after 10 pm and knock out some night cross country. I have about 150 night hours as a result, and its some of the best flying time I've ever had. Got stuck once or twice by a tight spread and had to wait til it burned off, but I took that as a learning experience

The downside? Politics. A power hungry chief instructor. Occasional ****ing contest between the board and owners (which resulted in two of the best planes ever in the fleet being taken down the road to a flight school and leased back from there).

The cost was very competitive for what you got - clean planes, maintained for the most part quite well, available 24/7/365 and managed by people who loved to fly.

There was a flight school nearby that undercut the prices significantly (and used mogas and had owner maintenance from someone who appeared to have pencilwhipped his A&P), but the squawk list and incident rate caused a lot of raised eyebrows, as did those incidents not being reported to insurers or the FAA. He didn't last too long, and his reputation follows him.
 
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There's a club right there in Denton that has a Skylane and a Bonanza, although it's more of a big partnership than a club. Meacham has a club that has a RG Cardinal and a Piper Six, but it too is more of a big partnership than a club. For a true club, the closest I know about is RFC based at Addison which was previously mentioned, but it would be a pretty good drive for you.

I wouldn't say you're always going to have problems scheduling the plane. Every club I have ever seen is better in that regard than renting.
 
As soon as you have more than one "owner" of an airplane, you have politics...
Clubs, when good, are like heaven...
Clubs, when bad, are worse than hell...
At least when renting, you can just walk away...

Economics play a major role in renting however... In my area there is exactly one rental airplane left in the area... Not enough renters to keep them in business in this economy... Michigan is the new West Virginia...

I can tolerate renting because the plane is not MY problem - as long as it is safe...
I cannot belong to a club because I will take a 2x4 to the first SOB who leaves the plane, a mess, out of gas, dented, torn upholstery, etc... And I do not tolerate power trips by some whippy dip...
That is why I own... It is old, it is cheap, it is a beater... But the tanks are full and the interior is clean...
denny-o
 
Characteristics of a good club:

1. Large enough membership to afford several (at least 4) airplanes.
2. Multiple instructors involved in the club.
3. Managed by an elected board rather than by the members themselves.
4. Member's equity at least 50%.
5. Published and enforced scheduling/operating rules.
6. Well defined and adequate maintenance policies.
7. Maximum of (5 to 7+number of aircraft) members per airplane.
8. A well defined exit policy.
9. A vast majority of members are "active" (flying regularly).
Lance has a good list. Our club doesn't meet all of them but I still think we're a good club and I stay involved even though I have 2 airplanes (in partnerships). Here's my 2¢ on Lance's list:


  1. Large membership and several airplanes: Very important. Planes go down for many reasons from weather delays at other airports to routine maintenance to months long engine overhauls and paint jobs. More members means average usage is fairly constant, more planes means greater availability/dispatch rate. Especially true for training aircraft. (we have 120 active members and 8 airplanes)
  2. Multiple instructors: I agree very beneficial. We keep each other honest are able to things like phase checks. Also an issue with availability, if one guy is booked you can still do your BFR on the 1st day of the next month. (we have 10 or 11 it's not very clear when inactive turns to gone)
  3. Elected board: Given that you want a large membership you have to have an elected board, written bylaws and written rules & procedures. Most things are decided by the board but we also have annual meetings and some decisions we put up for vote. Elections for board members are of course by full membership but it's mostly a problem of finding people stupid enough to volunteer yet smart enough to do the job rather than picking among the throng seeking the power and the glory.
  4. Member's equity: our members have no equity. The club owns 2 planes and we leaseback 6 from our members. I don't see it as a problem whereas equity clubs have issues with exit strategies.
  5. Published scheduling/operating rules: Very important. Designing good ones and making changes is a challenge but worth it. I would add that on-line scheduling with automatic rule enforcement is a big plus.
  6. Maintenance policies: The most important in my opinion. What we do is elect a maintenance supervisor, and have a maintenance director for each plane (appointed by the owner, elected for club owned). Any member can ground any plane for 24hrs, longer requires one of the above. Squawks are written in the book kept in the plane so everyone can see what is open, what has been fixed. The club philosophy is safety related squawks must be addressed or the plane doesn't fly. Cosmetics of 30-40 year old training airplanes are not a high priority.
  7. Maximum members per plane. While we fall at the top end of Lance's formula, I think how busy the schedule is, is the more important. Our schedule looks a lot like the one Spike posted, we even use the same service ScheduleMaster. I agree with Kent's assessment in a previous thread that SM has a lot of capabilities and a crappy user interface. They have been good to us implementing weird rules on request.
  8. Exit strategy: if it's an equity club it should be clear and easy. For us it's email the treasurer, settle your bill and get your deposit mailed.
  9. Majority of members fly regularly. This is a interesting question. We have no statistics on the distribution of our members. Our members tend to fly in spurts, work or school gets busy they don't fly at all, then when it relaxes they jump in and spend all the money they saved. We do have a 90 day currency rule. It may work for us because they don't have much of a say in how money spent.
That was longer than I planned maybe I should have said my 3¢.

Joe
 
The club that I used for my private and instrument (and still am a member of) has a 172N (180 hp upgrade) and a PA-28-181. The Archer is the nicer plane in more presentable condition, and the 172 is the trainer aircraft, but is still actually in pretty nice shape compared to a lot of what's out there. Most of the members we have rarely fly the planes, for a while I was the only one flying the Archer. I'm a fan of this setup because I had access to the planes when I wanted.

As Lance correctly pointed out, though, the non-flying pilots don't care at all about upgrades, nor do they care about getting any kind of planes that would make better cross-country machines. For example, a Comanche 250 or 260 added to the fleet to replace the Archer would provide a complex, high performance plane that's a really cross country machine. If the club had one, I would have seriously reconsidered whether or not to buy my Aztec. This manifests itself the most in politics, and I've stopped attending club meetings if I can at all avoid it just because I don't like dealing with the people who run the club. Now I'm pretty much a paying non-flying member because I maintain my membership cheaply enough that it's worth keeping to have the spare planes available.

The best setup that worked for me was having an arrangement with an individual owner. I put close to 100 hours on a Mooney that belonged to a friend of mine. It worked out well for both of us - he got money that helped offset the fixed costs and upgrades, while I got an excellent deal on what I considered to be a great plane to fly. This may be harder to find for training purposes, but is worth considering.

Another good option to consider is a partnership in a good trainer plane, 172 or PA-28. At my airport there are a few that exist. The buy-in cost is reasonable, and the fixed costs are split among a set number of individuals to keep them low. The key with a partnership is finding partners who will hold up their end of the deal and also have the same philosophy on the plane as you.
 
As Lance correctly pointed out, though, the non-flying pilots don't care at all about upgrades, nor do they care about getting any kind of planes that would make better cross-country machines. For example, a Comanche 250 or 260 added to the fleet to replace the Archer would provide a complex, high performance plane that's a really cross country machine. If the club had one, I would have seriously reconsidered whether or not to buy my Aztec.
This is a problem we see too. For a lot of our members the cost of flying is very important. But the real problem is that the people who would rent a good 6-seat cross country machine can usually afford to buy their own.

For those in the middle, the insurance mandated checkout requirements can be a big obstacle too.

Joe
 
This is a problem we see too. For a lot of our members the cost of flying is very important. But the real problem is that the people who would rent a good 6-seat cross country machine can usually afford to buy their own.

For those in the middle, the insurance mandated checkout requirements can be a big obstacle too.

To a certain extent that's where I was. My friends bought the Mooney, which I used, but given my mission and knowing that the Mooney was going to disappear at some point, I bought the Aztec. That's not an option for a number of people.

At this point, if my flying club had a good XC machine (I'd be fine with even a 2-seat so long as it was fast), I'd use it as a more economical trip machine for trips that didn't warrant two engines and 20 gph fuel burn. I really would like it if I could find some local people to get together on a Lancair 360.
 
I'd say that post was worth more than 3¢ Joe.

On the equity issue, I agree it's a two edged sword with the exit strategy being the biggest downside of member ownership. But without that a club can face two nasty issues.

One is the member who racks up a big bill and then walks away. I suppose that these days you could arrange for some kind of automatic payment mechanism that would prevent a large debt but I haven't seen such a tool in use at any club.

The other is what happens when hard economic times create a huge decrease in memberships. At that point a club likely has no choice but to dump assets (airplanes) in a down market leaving the aircraft owner(s) in a world of hurt. Pretty much the same risk run by anyone providing a leaseback aircraft to a FBO. When all the members have substantial investment, the pain get's spread more evenly when there's a major disruption.
Lance has a good list. Our club doesn't meet all of them but I still think we're a good club and I stay involved even though I have 2 airplanes (in partnerships). Here's my 2¢ on Lance's list:


  1. Large membership and several airplanes: Very important. Planes go down for many reasons from weather delays at other airports to routine maintenance to months long engine overhauls and paint jobs. More members means average usage is fairly constant, more planes means greater availability/dispatch rate. Especially true for training aircraft. (we have 120 active members and 8 airplanes)
  2. Multiple instructors: I agree very beneficial. We keep each other honest are able to things like phase checks. Also an issue with availability, if one guy is booked you can still do your BFR on the 1st day of the next month. (we have 10 or 11 it's not very clear when inactive turns to gone)
  3. Elected board: Given that you want a large membership you have to have an elected board, written bylaws and written rules & procedures. Most things are decided by the board but we also have annual meetings and some decisions we put up for vote. Elections for board members are of course by full membership but it's mostly a problem of finding people stupid enough to volunteer yet smart enough to do the job rather than picking among the throng seeking the power and the glory.
  4. Member's equity: our members have no equity. The club owns 2 planes and we leaseback 6 from our members. I don't see it as a problem whereas equity clubs have issues with exit strategies.
  5. Published scheduling/operating rules: Very important. Designing good ones and making changes is a challenge but worth it. I would add that on-line scheduling with automatic rule enforcement is a big plus.
  6. Maintenance policies: The most important in my opinion. What we do is elect a maintenance supervisor, and have a maintenance director for each plane (appointed by the owner, elected for club owned). Any member can ground any plane for 24hrs, longer requires one of the above. Squawks are written in the book kept in the plane so everyone can see what is open, what has been fixed. The club philosophy is safety related squawks must be addressed or the plane doesn't fly. Cosmetics of 30-40 year old training airplanes are not a high priority.
  7. Maximum members per plane. While we fall at the top end of Lance's formula, I think how busy the schedule is, is the more important. Our schedule looks a lot like the one Spike posted, we even use the same service ScheduleMaster. I agree with Kent's assessment in a previous thread that SM has a lot of capabilities and a crappy user interface. They have been good to us implementing weird rules on request.
  8. Exit strategy: if it's an equity club it should be clear and easy. For us it's email the treasurer, settle your bill and get your deposit mailed.
  9. Majority of members fly regularly. This is a interesting question. We have no statistics on the distribution of our members. Our members tend to fly in spurts, work or school gets busy they don't fly at all, then when it relaxes they jump in and spend all the money they saved. We do have a 90 day currency rule. It may work for us because they don't have much of a say in how money spent.
That was longer than I planned maybe I should have said my 3¢.

Joe
 
I've been on the RFC Dallas board for about eight years now; we have over 100 members. Always bulge a bit in the Spring and it winnows down late winter <g>. We've been around a long time. We have three Bonanzas and the time requirements to fly these planes are very reasonable.

If you want to get into more details, I can put you in touch with Robert Johnson, our membership director.

We have a very diverse group of pilots including airline, former military and folks that learned in the club. I'd suggest you attend a meeting and see what you think if Addison makes sense. It's a great place to meet other pilots with common goals. We have a lot of folks leave the club, purchase a plane, and sometimes later come back. Excellent group of fellows.

I will apologize for the club standards being so low that I was allowed to join back in 2000 or so <g>

Best,

Dave
 
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My reason for club membership, its the only way to take an airplane on a long trip over a week or more. Of course this depends on your club, but in my experiences across two there was always a way to book an airplane in advance for a few special weekend/week-long trips.

I can always fill my quota of flying. I can rent at one of four FBOs at two of the local airfields - but to plan for that once/year 10 day vacation and one or two long weekends, it was never possible until joining a good club.

A good one also affords some comraderie.

Now of course, I would sell all that comraderie in an instant to afford a high peformance airplane all to myself :)
 
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