Flying an approach to one runway then circling to another runway

narchee

narchee

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Long Blinker
In another thread I mentioned a conversation with an ATP rated pilot who is currently flying international routes with a major carrier. Here is another scenario he described to me below. I'd love to hear feedback/opinion on this because it sounded a little far fetched to me. This was in Europe.

He said he was offered an approach to a runway that was not long enough. There was another runway available relatively perpendicular that was long enough but for some reason didn't have an adequate approach available (he didn't say why). So he took the approach to the first one and as he broke out, he circled to land on the second one. Is that legal? Under part 91 I could see doing this by covering my derriere and asking for SVFR once I break out on the first approach then I could legally maneuver to the second runway only having to remain clear of clouds. My understanding was that on an approach if you circle to land you MUST circle to land on the runway of that approach even if it is the opposite direction. Or can you land on any runway at the airport?
 
narchee said:
My understanding was that on an approach if you circle to land you MUST circle to land on the runway of that approach even if it is the opposite direction. Or can you land on any runway at the airport?
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Circling approaches are, by design, to the airport, not the runway.

dtuuri
 
narchee said:
In another thread I mentioned a conversation with an ATP rated pilot who is currently flying international routes with a major carrier. Here is another scenario he described to me below. I'd love to hear feedback/opinion on this because it sounded a little far fetched to me. This was in Europe.

He said he was offered an approach to a runway that was not long enough. There was another runway available relatively perpendicular that was long enough but for some reason didn't have an adequate approach available (he didn't say why). So he took the approach to the first one and as he broke out, he circled to land on the second one. Is that legal? Under part 91 I could see doing this by covering my derriere and asking for SVFR once I break out on the first approach then I could legally maneuver to the second runway only having to remain clear of clouds. My understanding was that on an approach if you circle to land you MUST circle to land on the runway of that approach even if it is the opposite direction. Or can you land on any runway at the airport?
Click to expand...

Don't most U.S. ATP's have a no circling restriction? Internationally without the restriction I would still think there is an issue. Did he cancel ifr and circle vfr to land?

Curious to see what the more knowledgeable pilots have to say for this one.
 
Somedudeintn said:
Don't most U.S. ATP's have a no circling restriction? Internationally without the restriction I would still think there is an issue. Did he cancel ifr and circle vfr to land?
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ATPs? No. Airlines, maybe.

And circle-to-land is an IFR maneuver, with specific minimums on the plate for it. You do not need to cancel IFR. In fact, if you don't have VFR cloud separation met, you can't cancel IFR even though you must have the field in sight at all times on the circle.
 
Circle to land is a legal approach,they print minimums for the approach on the plates.
 
Can be done and totally legal. Heck, I've shot approaches to a completely different airport to get me below the weather so I could proceed VFR to the airport I intended to go to that didn't have an instrument approach.
Some times because of approach capabilities in the airplane, lower landing minimums, it is more advantageous to shoot an approach to a runway you aren't capable of landing on and circling to another that you are.
narchee said:
My understanding was that on an approach if you circle to land you MUST circle to land on the runway of that approach even if it is the opposite direction. Or can you land on any runway at the airport?
Click to expand...
I am not quite sure what you are asking by the first question. I think what you were asking is that if you shot the GPS to runway 36 then you must land on 36. If that were the case, what would be the point of the circle? For the second question, yes. As long as you remain in the protected area.
 
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narchee said:
My understanding was that on an approach if you circle to land you MUST circle to land on the runway of that approach even if it is the opposite direction. Or can you land on any runway at the airport?
Click to expand...
You can circle to land to a different runway, not just the reciprocal, but if it's a controlled airport the controller needs to clear you to land on that runway.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
ATPs? No. Airlines, maybe.



not quite, it depends on how your rating was done. I have two types given by the same cert holder. one has no restriction, the other is restricted to circling VMC only. so as an ATP, I may or may not be able to circle depending on what aircraft I am in.

bob
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As everyone has said, circle to land is a legal IFR maneuver and is allowed to any runway at the airport unless there's a restriction on the approach plate or in a NOTAM. I was even required to demonstrate a CTL on my IFR checkride; I thought it was in the PTS? :dunno:

BTW restrictions imposed by NOTAM are very common, especially regarding CTL to certain runways at night. It's really important to have the current NOTAMs if you ever consider doing this.
 
dtuuri said:
:confused: What do you mean?

dtuuri
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The way I read the question, he was talking about doing a CTL off an approach to a runway, i.e. an approach with straight-in minimums. He wasn't sure you could CTL off of that kind of approach. It sounded to me as if you were talking about an approach like a VOR-A or GPS-A that is designed to be flown to an airport, not a runway, and therefore has only circling minimums. But maybe I misread you.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
Can be done and totally legal. Heck, I've shot approaches to a completely different airport to get me below the weather so I could proceed VFR to the airport I intended to go to that didn't have an instrument approach.
Click to expand...

I did something similar the other day coming back to CPK. Storm cell was sitting right on the approach path for the ILS 5. Ceiling was overcast around 1900', so I asked for the RNAV to PVG and once I got below I cancelled and joined the pattern for CPK.
 
The way he described it the airport was IFR. He did the approach to one runway but then circled to another. Sounds like that is allowed. I was under the impression that if you did an approach, the circling minimums are to that runway or its reciprocal not any runway at the airport. Thanks for clearing that up.
 
narchee said:
The way he described it the airport was IFR. He did the approach to one runway but then circled to another. Sounds like that is allowed. I was under the impression that if you did an approach, the circling minimums are to that runway or its reciprocal not any runway at the airport. Thanks for clearing that up.
Click to expand...

It can be handy to change runways to get more favorable winds or maybe just land closer to your parking spot. Just tell them where you want to circle to when at a controlled field and they'll try to work it out. Last time I did it there was a conflict with a crop duster but eventually the tower figured out I could circle north of the field rather than south (I was approaching from the south).
 
Legal, but I think most airlines prohibit circling. Maybe he was flying corporate (didn't say). Like Azure said, circling has a lot of restrictions so it is best to be well informed and familiar with the approach plate.
 
It seems as if every time I have been to an initial or recurrent the required circling approach has been an approach to one runway, circling to land on an almost perpendicular runway. I think I have done sim scenarios like this at JFK, ICT, MEM, IND and PANC.
 
I was just given this the other day at BWI, they were departing 28 and landing (airliners) 33L. ILS to 28, CTL 33R. Happens all the time to keep the slower GA traffic out of the conga line of airliners headed to 33L. Show up in your bugsmasher during the morning push on a cloudy day, and you'll get to try it yourself. Totally legal.
 
azure said:
The way I read the question, he was talking about doing a CTL off an approach to a runway, i.e. an approach with straight-in minimums. He wasn't sure you could CTL off of that kind of approach. It sounded to me as if you were talking about an approach like a VOR-A or GPS-A that is designed to be flown to an airport, not a runway, and therefore has only circling minimums. But maybe I misread you.
Click to expand...

I feel the need to invoke the 'distinction without a difference' card. I'm pretty sure circling minimums are established the same way in either case.

dtuuri
 
For what it's worth i have been given circle to land from a few ILS Approaches .

One time a Runway with ILS was closed but one perpendicular without ILS was open

A couple others had ILS in only one direction but that would be a bad tailwind so a circle to land on same runway opposite direction. ( KPWK comes to mind due to proximity of ORD but normally you cancel IFR when circling to let jet traffic depart before landing )


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
unsafervguy said:
flyingcheesehead said:
ATPs? No. Airlines, maybe.



not quite, it depends on how your rating was done. I have two types given by the same cert holder. one has no restriction, the other is restricted to circling VMC only. so as an ATP, I may or may not be able to circle depending on what aircraft I am in.

bob
Click to expand...

I am in the same boat. Unrestricted in the 777, Circle in VMC only on the 737.

I could probably get rid of the restriction on the 737 if I demonstrated a Circling Approach but it just isn't worth the effort.
Click to expand...
 
narchee said:
In another thread I mentioned a conversation with an ATP rated pilot who is currently flying international routes with a major carrier. Here is another scenario he described to me below. I'd love to hear feedback/opinion on this because it sounded a little far fetched to me. This was in Europe.

He said he was offered an approach to a runway that was not long enough. There was another runway available relatively perpendicular that was long enough but for some reason didn't have an adequate approach available (he didn't say why). So he took the approach to the first one and as he broke out, he circled to land on the second one. Is that legal? Under part 91 I could see doing this by covering my derriere and asking for SVFR once I break out on the first approach then I could legally maneuver to the second runway only having to remain clear of clouds. My understanding was that on an approach if you circle to land you MUST circle to land on the runway of that approach even if it is the opposite direction. Or can you land on any runway at the airport?
Click to expand...

Not enough info to answer. Company rules, foreign rules and Certificate (ATP) restrictions aside, whatever those are, I know of no generic rule that says you must circle only to the runway the approach is aligned with, whether it be an Approach that has only circling minimums (designated by a letter) or an Approach that also has straight in minimums (designated by r/w.) Did the Approach have circling minimums? Were there any restrictions that would have forbiden circling to that runway such as circling not authorized North of.... etc.? Did ATC approve it? Did he get it with his Approach clearance, "cleared for ILS RW 18 approach, circle to land RW 27 so he knew what his MDA was before commencing the approach?
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I am in the same boat. Unrestricted in the 777, Circle in VMC only on the 737.



I could probably get rid of the restriction on the 737 if I demonstrated a Circling Approach but it just isn't worth the effort.
Click to expand...

Greg, is the issue with the limitation related to where and in what (real a/c or sim) you did the checkride in? I seem to recall reading that being part of the circling limitation issue.
 
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So the airlines don't typically restrict maneuvers unless there's a good reason. It can't just be that the director of flight ops said "I don't like it".

What's the issue with it?
 
dtuuri said:
I feel the need to invoke the 'distinction without a difference' card. I'm pretty sure circling minimums are established the same way in either case.

dtuuri
Click to expand...
Good card to invoke.

My question to the OP: Since circling minimums appear on probably 90% of US approach plates and you mention SVFR (which makes no sense on an IFR clearance), it sounds a bit like you are only VFR rated yourself. Is that correct? Or is it just one of those things not covered well by your training?
 
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My checkride had an ILS-to-CTL as one of the approaches (the last one actually).
As long as the approach has circling minimums

Yes, it's a required element in the instrument PTS. You need to do at least one circling approach and at least one approach where you land (either straight in or circling) and one missed.
 
flyingron said:
My checkride had an ILS-to-CTL as one of the approaches (the last one actually).
As long as the approach has circling minimums

Yes, it's a required element in the instrument PTS. You need to do at least one circling approach and at least one approach where you land (either straight in or circling) and one missed.
Click to expand...
And an IPC requires one as well.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Good card to invoke.

My question to the OP: Since circling minimums appear on probably 90% of US approach plates and you mention SVFR (which makes no sense on an IFR clearance), it sounds a bit like you are only VFR rated yourself. Is that correct? Or is it just one of those things not covered well by your training?
Click to expand...

No my mistake was not realizing I can circle to land to any runway at the airport not just the runway for that approach. I've done circles to land many times for example VOR-A approaches. For the longest time that was the only approach available to me at a nearby airport.
 
narchee said:
No my mistake was not realizing I can circle to land to any runway at the airport not just the runway for that approach. I've done circles to land many times for example VOR-A approaches. For the longest time that was the only approach available to me at a nearby airport.
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I think we all have gaps. Not to worry.
 
dtuuri said:
I feel the need to invoke the 'distinction without a difference' card. I'm pretty sure circling minimums are established the same way in either case.

dtuuri
Click to expand...
My point was that since it was a legal question, the fact that approaches exist where you HAVE TO circle isn't really relevant. The OP wanted to know whether circling to a different runway was legal when flying an approach to a runway. There could have been reasons other than the way minimums are established that limit what you can legally do. And there are, in fact, as others have stated, but not for Part 91 operators flying ordinary piston singles.

What no one has brought up yet in this thread (unless I've missed it) is that if you're flying an approach to a runway in real IFR conditions, most people will need a good reason to CTL at all, since it carries the very real risk of losing visual contact with the runway environment and being forced to miss from a point well off the normal missed approach path. The OP's friend had a good reason; the only other reason I can think of would be a strong tailwind. It's nearly always safer to go straight in if at all possible.
 
dtuuri said:
I feel the need to invoke the 'distinction without a difference' card. I'm pretty sure circling minimums are established the same way in either case.

dtuuri
Click to expand...

Correct.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Greg, is the issue with the limitation related to where and in what (real a/c or sim) you did the checkride in? I seem to recall reading that being part of the circling limitation issue.
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For me, that's been the case. Both airlines I've flown for have a weather limitation where circling to land is limited to 1000' and 3 miles. One airline had us circle in the simulator anyway, and I have no restriction on my type. The other does not, and I have the limitation.
 
azure said:
What no one has brought up yet in this thread (unless I've missed it) is that if you're flying an approach to a runway in real IFR conditions, most people will need a good reason to CTL at all, since it carries the very real risk of losing visual contact with the runway environment and being forced to miss from a point well off the normal missed approach path. The OP's friend had a good reason; the only other reason I can think of would be a strong tailwind. It's nearly always safer to go straight in if at all possible.
Click to expand...

No doubt about it. Minimum weather, then add rain or snow. And at night, it is bad, minimum weather or not. The "classic" CTL (landing on the opposite end of a runway) is a high risk maneuver. Not on a check-ride because it is CAVU.
 
bflynn said:
So the airlines don't typically restrict maneuvers unless there's a good reason. It can't just be that the director of flight ops said "I don't like it".
Click to expand...
If a CTL is not demonstrated on the type ride then the type rating will be restricted with "CIRC. APCH. - VMC ONLY."

This would require the airline spend time training and checking the CTL maneuver which would seldom be used in their line operations. CTL maneuvers in IMC, particularly in transport aircraft, don't leave much margin for error and carry more risk than straight-in approaches.

narchee said:
No my mistake was not realizing I can circle to land to any runway at the airport not just the runway for that approach.
Click to expand...
If circling minimums are published for an approach you can use them to CTL to any runway at the airport unless a specific restriction is published.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Greg, is the issue with the limitation related to where and in what (real a/c or sim) you did the checkride in? I seem to recall reading that being part of the circling limitation issue.
Click to expand...

I don't remember if it is an OpSpec thing, company policy, or what. We are not authorized to do circling approaches unless we can do them VMC. Since we don't do them for real, there is no reason to test for them. Since we don't demonstrate them on our type rides, we get the restriction on the certificate.

FWIW, I got my 777 Type Rating before that restriction was imposed, therefore I was grandfathered on the circling approach thing.
 
bflynn said:
So the airlines don't typically restrict maneuvers unless there's a good reason. It can't just be that the director of flight ops said "I don't like it".

What's the issue with it?
Click to expand...

99.99% of all of our actual instrument approaches are ILS's. Straight in. The only time I have seen an approach other than an ILS is in the simulator, and that is rather rare. We are getting more RNP approaches but they are fairly new and becoming more common.

Since circling approaches are extremely rare, and basically against company policy, we got FAA approval to not test for them with the appropriate notation on our certificates.

If I wanted to eliminate the restriction, I can go to Flight Safety or similar and demonstrate a circle approach. I really don't see a reason to do that.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I don't remember if it is an OpSpec thing, company policy, or what. We are not authorized to do circling approaches unless we can do them VMC. Since we don't do them for real, there is no reason to test for them. Since we don't demonstrate them on our type rides, we get the restriction on the certificate.

FWIW, I got my 777 Type Rating before that restriction was imposed, therefore I was grandfathered on the circling approach thing.
Click to expand...

I think one thing that is driving it at airlines is, as stated they give little room for error in a transport cat aircraft.

CTL's have also been a large part of the busts on type rides when we did them, so by not doing them on the type it eliminated a bunch of busts, and did not affect the operation, since even when they were allowed, they were very seldom done on the line. I have never done one on the line in 16 years.

bob
 
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