"Fly Visual"

Let'sgoflying!

Let'sgoflying!

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Dave Taylor
During my round the west trip, I stopped in Missoula, Mt. and of course was reviewing the approaches before I arrived - (although I did not need one).
Anyway, this one looked a little different than the usual bacon and eggs so I thought I would post it for review and comments.

One part that had me with ???'s over my head was the "Fly Visual" with arrows and a heading following the DH depiction.

Anyone have a definition of what the FAA means by that? I don't recall seeing it anywhere before.

If it turns out to be as simple as it sounds, does this not seem redundant to anyone? Don't we always "Fly Visually" after the DH unless going missed?

Or, are they saying they are somehow providing standard terps protections if you maintain the heading indicated??

It must be another void in my training!

http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0706/00266I11.PDF
 
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I think you're right in that it's as simple as it sounds. Having an ILS with 5 miles visibility and 1350' is a little more than most people are accustomed to, so they are probably pointing it out this way. I'd also hypothesize that you cannot count on getting the LOC or glideslope after the DH, so they wanted to emphasize the "visual" part.

Note that it is NOT authorized as a LOC, so if you lose the glideslope prior to DH you'll need to do a missed, and this looks like one where you really want to understand the missed procedure before you start!
 
gprellwitz said:
I think you're right in that it's as simple as it sounds. Having an ILS with 5 miles visibility and 1350' is a little more than most people are accustomed to, so they are probably pointing it out this way. I'd also hypothesize that you cannot count on getting the LOC or glideslope after the DH, so they wanted to emphasize the "visual" part.
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I'd agree...it's as simple as it sounds.

I've got slightly different hypotheses as to the reasoning.

In mountainous terrain, high minimums are also used to keep the climb gradient requirements for the missed approach at "normal" levels. In this case, the terrain to the south probably would impinge on the missed approach if you initiated the missed closer to the airport. What does the obstacle departure for that runway say? (the computer I'm at is just too slow for me to check it out)

Second, you've got MALSR's. Normally, if you could spot these through the clouds or haze at DH, you could continue to 100 AGL before being required to see any of the items required to land. In this case, it would be a REALLY bad thing to get halfway there on the approach lights, lose them, and have to go missed. Therefore, that entire distance from the DH to the runway must be made with appropriate visual references.

There you have it...my guess...and our next contestant is? ;)

Fly safe!

David
 
It's that simple. The missed approach requirements are driving the front course minimums. Careful out there and please fly what's on the plate. Thank you....thank you very much.
 
Look at the VOR DME-C into ASE. There's a "fly visual" segment there....from which point the MAP procedure no longer guarantees safety, 'cause you can't get there".

Like the crew of the G3 that went down about 1500 yards short (stall spin) while they were losing/finding/losing the runway, you CANNOT have any doubt about making the fly visual segment. You are BEYOND the point of safe "out".
 
That's pretty subtle. When looking at the approach segment it doesn't appear to be a big deal. Now shift to the Missed approach... First thing that grabs your throat is that it begins *before* you reach the airport. Yikes !
 
I like these two items from the Remarks:
  • TKOF NOT AUTHORIZED ON RY 15 WITHOUT WRITTEN PERMISSION FM AMGR.
  • FOR ALL GA OPNS BTWN 30 MIN AFT SS TO 2300 THE FOLLOWING APPLIES: ACFT EQUIPPED AS RQRD UNDER FAR 91.205(D) FOR INST FLT - PILOT IS INST RATED; VFR PIC HAS COMPLETED AT LEAST ONE TKOF OR LDNG IN THE PRECEDING 12 MONTHS AT ASE. IFR: EXECUTE APCH/DEP PROCEDURES WITH ATC CLNC.
 
jdwatson said:
That's pretty subtle. When looking at the approach segment it doesn't appear to be a big deal. Now shift to the Missed approach... First thing that grabs your throat is that it begins *before* you reach the airport. Yikes !
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Good man. Reads the ENTIRE plate. JD you'll live long :goofy:
 
I can't recall being told how to enter the hold like this before either.
Not sure why they chose that radial either but its pretty specific.

The depicted mountains want me to shift it slightly, to get right down the center of the valley and away from "M" mountain - but it is a rough image I guess
 
I guess putting the hold over there leaves room for the next aircraft go missed.
 
The VOR/DME C at Aspen http://naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0706/05889VDGC.PDF doesn't have the same "fly visual" notation as the ILS approach in Missoula although you obviously have to fly visually once you break out. I think this is because the approach in Aspen is technically a circling approach. If you see the airport far enough back you can fly it straight in which is what happens most of the time. If you don't see it until the MAP you have to circle because you are too close (1.4 miles) to lose 2380 feet.

All the approaches I've seen with the "fly visual" notation have been straight in approaches with a glide slope. Here is another one in Eagle, http://naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0706/06403LDAD25.PDF. I think this is because in order to follow a glide slope and not descend too far to be able to meet the missed approach climb gradient, the MAP needs to be set back quite a ways from the threshold. On a non-precision approach the MAP is usually very close to or over the runway.

Another interesting thing about the LDA/DME in Eagle is that it has a steeper, non-standard, missed approach gradient.
 
Aviation Safety magazine profiles the KASE approach this month in their "Dangerous Approaches" article. Timing is everything !
 
To my mind the big 'Watchit!" on the ASE approach are the words, "BACK COURSE" on that portion of the missed.

Whenever I see those words, I am thinking "Reverse Sensing".

In this case however, you are outbound on the back course......which means Normal Sensing!

So while the wording was meant to be helpful, it woulda made me fly into a mountain!

http://naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0706/05889VDGC.PDF
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
To my mind the big 'Watchit!" on the ASE approach are the words, "BACK COURSE" on that portion of the missed.

Whenever I see those words, I am thinking "Reverse Sensing".

In this case however, you are outbound on the back course......which means Normal Sensing!

So while the wording was meant to be helpful, it woulda made me fly into a mountain!

http://naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0706/05889VDGC.PDF
Click to expand...
Man, if you wanna start an argument, walk into a pilot lounge full of corporate pilots and ask how to set that up ;)

Personally, while the Aspen approaches have their challenges, I think they're highly over-rated on the "dangerous" scale...notice that the MDA is above (not much, but some) all terrain under the missed approach path until just before you get to GLENO..."outclimbing terrain" really isn't an issue on the missed. (assuming, of course, that you initiate your missed from the MAP.)

Fly safe!

David
 
MauleSkinner said:
Man, if you wanna start an argument, walk into a pilot lounge full of corporate pilots and ask how to set that up ;)

Personally, while the Aspen approaches have their challenges, I think they're highly over-rated on the "dangerous" scale...notice that the MDA is above (not much, but some) all terrain under the missed approach path until just before you get to GLENO..."outclimbing terrain" really isn't an issue on the missed. (assuming, of course, that you initiate your missed from the MAP.)

 Fly safe!

David
Click to expand...

Emphasis added; there is the problem. Hollywood Glitterati in the back makes a lot of pressure on the pilot.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
During my round the west trip, I stopped in Missoula, Mt. and of course was reviewing the approaches before I arrived - (although I did not need one).
Anyway, this one looked a little different than the usual bacon and eggs so I thought I would post it for review and comments.

One part that had me with ???'s over my head was the "Fly Visual" with arrows and a heading following the DH depiction.

Anyone have a definition of what the FAA means by that? I don't recall seeing it anywhere before.

If it turns out to be as simple as it sounds, does this not seem redundant to anyone? Don't we always "Fly Visually" after the DH unless going missed?

Or, are they saying they are somehow providing standard terps protections if you maintain the heading indicated??

It must be another void in my training!

http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0706/00266I11.PDF
Click to expand...


Thanks for posting that Dave! Haven't flown one of those yet. After the discussion, it seems pretty clear, but it's always better to think through something new before one has to fly it.

Best,

Dave
 
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Another one, which I cannot find right now, was not perplexing but did raise a question: (this is the one I mentioned, Spike)

The ILS said something like 'you must not use this as a LOC approach with stepdowns; for the loc approach see 'LOC/DME 12'". And the ILS did have the usual stepdowns. Wish I could find it now. Anyway the mind grapples with 'why? would it say that?'
'Has it always been like that, or did something change? Why produce stepdowns or leave them depicted if they cannot be used?'

Its somewhere between NM and WA(!) but I can't find it now.

I guess no one else had the problem with the BC note on the ASE, I've always thought it....dangerous.
 
And here's the view from the fly visual at TEX, taken in VMC, of course:
 

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SCCutler said:
Emphasis added; there is the problem. Hollywood Glitterati in the back makes a lot of pressure on the pilot.
Click to expand...
Ah, but you see, the Grand Canyon came about due to me digging in my heels all the time. I'm a stubborn s.o.b., and I can provide references to that effect ;)

Fly safe!

David
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Another one, which I cannot find right now, was not perplexing but did raise a question: (this is the one I mentioned, Spike)

The ILS said something like 'you must not use this as a LOC approach with stepdowns; for the loc approach see 'LOC/DME 12'". And the ILS did have the usual stepdowns. Wish I could find it now. Anyway the mind grapples with 'why? would it say that?'
'Has it always been like that, or did something change? Why produce stepdowns or leave them depicted if they cannot be used?'

Its somewhere between NM and WA(!) but I can't find it now.

I guess no one else had the problem with the BC note on the ASE, I've always thought it....dangerous.
Click to expand...

Burbank (BUR)?
 
Dave, don't you ever sleep?

Just watching out for you, Buddy! (I'm at work...)
 
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