Flood ins in a flood prone area

[Richard]

In CA homeowners are required to have flood ins or prove they are not located within a flood plain. At least I always have had to. My current res is about 800 msl yet I had to show I was not w/in a flood area. Why did not the city of Nawlins not have such a provision?

NEW ORLEANS (Reuters) - Louisiana prosecutors are investigating the failure of the levees around New Orleans to determine if bungled engineering and construction of the flood protection system warrants legal action.


Louisiana Attorney General Charles Foti has not ruled out a criminal prosecution but is focused first on determining whether a successful civil judgment could help evacuees recover damages from private insurers, a spokeswoman said on Tuesday.

"I think his goal is to see if there's any way to help people who lost everything," said Foti spokeswoman Kris Wartelle.
Homeowners would be more likely to recover financial damages if a local court judgment declares that flaws in the levee system caused the devastating flooding after the levees around the city were breached, Wartelle said.
Louisiana State University's Hurricane Center this week took on a state contract for a forensic investigation to determine why the levees failed. The findings would be key to any legal action.
The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers has responsibility for maintaining the levee system that rings New Orleans, a city built largely below sea level.
Although officials initially said the storm surge caused by Katrina pushed water over the top of the levees, some investigators have said the floodwalls collapsed when water rushed through loose soil near their base.
DA INVESTIGATING
New Orleans District Attorney Eddie Jordan also is assessing the levee failures, spokeswoman Leatrice Dupre said.
"We're looking into the matter to decide whether a grand jury investigation is warranted," Dupre said. "We're going to look at some reports and look at some testimony."
About 80 percent of New Orleans flooded after Katrina, with some areas inundated with as much as 12 feet of water. The city had a population of about 500,000 before Katrina.
Many homeowners did not have separate flood insurance and have had difficulty collecting on other insurance policies that explicitly exclude water damage.
New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin said on Monday that the levees, which were supposed to have been built 15 feet tall, had sunk to a height of about 12 to 13 feet before the storm through a natural process of subsidence that affects construction throughout the city.
"We can debate about whether the workmanship was good or not -- and probably it wasn't very good," Nagin told a town hall meeting in Baton Rouge.
Even if a state lawsuit were successful in getting a judgment recognizing levee flaws, it is unclear whether that would result in larger settlements for property owners. The insurance industry already has challenged the legal logic of that case.
"It is not surprising that public officials in Louisiana are trying everything they can to recover dollars for those whose lives were devastated by Hurricane Katrina," said Julie Rochman, a spokeswoman for the American Insurance Association. "But insurance contracts are contracts."
More than 250,000 homes were substantially damaged or destroyed by Katrina, and the rebuilding effort is projected to cost more than $200 billion.
The American Insurance Association estimates insured losses at between $40 billion and $60 billion.

 

[Richard]

Who requires that; the State of California, your mortgagee, or someone else? -- Mike

I'll have to get back to you on that. Since I posted I have thought maybe that didn't sound right. But I do distinctly remember having to have supplied the pertinent information twice now.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Flood insurance is available within areas FEMA maps as 100-year flood plain. If outside of that area, some supplemental insurance may be available, but is seldom if ever required. (There generally is a 500-year flood plain area that has little meanig to other than engineers.

The FEMA 100-year flood plain seemed to show many areas in NO that flooded were not 'mapped' as being in the 100-year flood plain--therefore, not Federal Flood Insurance would have been available.

You must also understand what flood insurance covers; generally improvements within the 100-year flood plain area. There may also a coverage cap.

Dave

 

[Richard]

Flood insurance is available within areas FEMA maps as 100-year flood plain. If outside of that area, some supplemental insurance may be available, but is seldom if ever required. (There generally is a 500-year flood plain area that has little meanig to other than engineers.

The FEMA 100-year flood plain seemed to show many areas in NO that flooded were not 'mapped' as being in the 100-year flood plain--therefore, not Federal Flood Insurance would have been available.

You must also understand what flood insurance covers; generally improvements within the 100-year flood plain area. There may also a coverage cap.

Dave

Yes, but the article mentioned many homeowners did not have flood insurance. This in a city below sealevel and surrounded by one layer of protection. Also, judging from the Nagin quote, subsidence was long known and had affected areas throughout the city. Summary is mapped or not, it's not if, it's when (the flood cometh, therefore the need for proper ins)

Who requires that; the State of California, your mortgagee, or someone else? -- Mike

Okay, got the answer. My lender made the requirement in both cases. What threw me was the mortgage insurance made the same requirement and referenced a CA state requirement (which turned out to be BS). The 2nd instance, this same demand was made by mortgage ins but I was able to call their bluff. It seemed my county, not the state, had this requirement. I'll have to check with the county to see if it's still a requirement.

Aside from all that, hazards come. The Boy Scouts nailed it.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Yes, but the article mentioned many homeowners did not have flood insurance. This in a city below sealevel and surrounded by one layer of protection. Also, judging from the Nagin quote, subsidence was long known and had affected areas throughout the city. Summary is mapped or not, it's not if, it's when (the flood cometh, therefore the need for proper ins)

I won't interject my opinion of mayor Nagin; probably get kicked back over to the red board.

You could never make it at FEMA or Corps of Engineers Richard; you expect things to make sense. See, if you’re not in the 100-year flood plain area, no flood insurance. Doesn't matter that you're below sea level--it's what it's mapped to be. I'm sure when they mapped, an assumption was current flood control devises were properly designed and would hold. Map was obviously incorrect, but the buyer couldn't get insurance coverage.

As a home purchaser, one might make a reasonable inquiry as to why the FEMA map appeared to be incorrect, but, I'll bet things wouldn't get far unless there was some strong political support for the issue. Think of all the sophisticated lenders that put mortgages on those homes without insurance; one would expect them to be more knowledgeable than an individual home purchaser.


Dave

 

[SkyHog]

I won't interject my opinion of mayor Nagin; probably get kicked back over to the red board.

You could never make it at FEMA or Corps of Engineers Richard; you expect things to make sense. See, if you’re not in the 100-year flood plain area, no flood insurance. Doesn't matter that you're below sea level--it's what it's mapped to be. I'm sure when they mapped, an assumption was current flood control devises were properly designed and would hold. Map was obviously incorrect, but the buyer couldn't get insurance coverage.

As a home purchaser, one might make a reasonable inquiry as to why the FEMA map appeared to be incorrect, but, I'll bet things wouldn't get far unless there was some strong political support for the issue. Think of all the sophisticated lenders that put mortgages on those homes without insurance; one would expect them to be more knowledgeable than an individual home purchaser.


Dave

wait - are you saying that if I don't live in a flood plain area, I CAN'T get flood insurance, or I'm not required to get it?

The latter makes sense. The former...well, that's just wrong, and could change my opinion on some things in NO if its true.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Nick:

Guess I don't really understand your post. Flood insurance is available if you are in the FEMA 100-year flood plain --the government flood insurance program. That's very different than being in a flood prone area. This is very specific.

I have subdivisions now with 100-year flood plain areas. If the lot has no portion in the 100-year flood plain, lenders do not require the homeowner to purchase flood insurance. A homeowner may still look into insurance with their normal provider, but policies in each state are different.

The Governmental Flood Insurance program is geared to the 100-year FEMA line.

Dave

Let me make another comment; municipalities do not have to participate in the Federal Flood Insurance program. I purchased some apartments in the City of Addison, Texas several years ago. Flood insurance wasn't an option because the municipality didn't participate. If they do participate, there are many things the municipality must to to qualify--many flood plain management issues must be addressed.

For a primer on this matter, go to http://www.fema.gov/nfip/sitemap2.shtm

The point is, on the FEMA map, the area the homeowners were in many cases did not require the homeowner to purchase flood insurance (to cover the lender). The homeowner could still have purchased coverage if they wanted to, but most probably didn't see the need to add the extra cost. Now it's the gov'ments fault.

And, of course, if the FEMA map was in error, there may be some fault.

Most private insurance contracts specifically exclude flood coverage. Now, the AG of NO is trying to make them pay anyway. Do you know what will happen to private insurace premiums if the AG is successful? Premiums were charged with this and many other exclusions that were factored in. No rules according the the NO AG. Can you say local politics??

Dave

 

[Richard]

I spoke with county planning this morning. The county does not require flood insurance but they do have restrictions regarding developing land within a mapped 100 yr flood plain as determined by FEMA. Basically, the county will inspect the land and if they determine any portion of the development (utilities included) is within the flood plain then they will issue a notification that the owner must hire a surveyer who is certified in flood control who will make a benckmark loop with a determination forwarded to the architect who must design remediation as part of the project. What is interesting is this is not a building code requirement. So I asked if such restriction could be waived they did not know the answer to that.

But I wonder if any portion of a development is found to be within the mapped 100 year flood plain and the restriction is waived would the property be insurable?

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Richard:

I do this full time for a living and believe me, we look into each situation. The city, and county generally have rules and regulations for how to deal with floodplain. Years ago, cities here would allow lots to be in flood plain, but not the building pad (the pad upon which the home is built). Many cities where I develop now, require no portion of a lot be in flood plain because so many homeowners complained when water rose (the water was coming up too close to their home!!). I'm reclaiming land from flood plain now by filling in where some lots will go at the end of a street. Once I raise the lots above the flood elevation, my engineer will send a request for map revision to FEMA so they can properly record the 100-year flood plain line.

It's usually the mortgage lender that requires the flood insurance for a home to protect their loan--Not the city or county.

I install utilities in flood plain areas all the time, never heard of a county saying I couldn't put utilities in flood plain. Think about this; sanitary sewer lines are normally gravity fed. The spot they are normally located is along or in creeks where the low water flow level is. We put walking and jogging paths in flood plain as do many municipalities. I can see not allowing electrical lines, water lines, gas etc. but these things do have to cross those areas in many instances to service folks on the other side.

Dave

 

[Henning]

wait - are you saying that if I don't live in a flood plain area, I CAN'T get flood insurance, or I'm not required to get it?

The latter makes sense. The former...well, that's just wrong, and could change my opinion on some things in NO if its true.

Can't. NFIP (National Flood Insurance Program) doesn't sell you flood insurance unless you are at risk. Problem is the risk is calculated historically by damages. Since the area is very old and predates NFIP, the area buildings were built up a bit to keep them out of the reach of common storm waters, therefor, no historical damages. When the NFIP came about, they also established COBRA zones in areas of historically high damage rates where they will pay you out once, and after that, you move cause they won't pay there again. It's a strange set up, and adjusting NFIP claims is a real pain since they require you to record the serial numbers off of major appliances and such, and often they are covered with oozing stinking mud, that combined with the fact that they only cover the flood damage (water on the ground before it enters the covered property) and the Homeowners insurance policy only covers the Windstorm/Rain damage (what the wind tears off and allows wind to drive rain in) you have to sort out the damage of what was damaged by what water and write two estimates for two entities on the same property. Real PITA. I got a call the other day to work Wilma, said "No Thanks".