FLIR for Tablets?

Jay Honeck

Jay Honeck

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Jay Honeck
Now that I'm joining the world of experimental aircraft, I'm getting stoked about adding cool, previously illegal, uncertified things to the aircraft. :D

Has anyone come up with a cheap night vision camera system to work wirelessly with tablets? Kind of like a GoPro, but infrared?

That would be a slick mod that could significantly enhance safety.
 
Skylane81E said:
Price a FLIR camera and report back
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Yeah, the "real" ones for aircraft are stupid expensive.

Yet I've got one watching my pool 24/7 that cost $200 bucks. Go figure.

Now I know they won't be the same quality, but heck, I bought a Russian night vision monocular in the '90s for $225. All the thing needs is output to Bluetooth, and we would have a pretty useful in-cockpit app.

I will bet they are out there.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3...
 
Great, next thing he'll be getting that heads up display they make for experimentals. :)
 
Hooked to a bargain basement infrared camera? Heck, yeah. :D

Just wait till Google Glass takes off. That thing is going to change EVERYTHING.

Imagine FLIR on Google Glass!

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3...
 
Heck, any "six-pack" information shown on the Google Glass device would be very useful.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Yeah, the "real" ones for aircraft are stupid expensive.

Yet I've got one watching my pool 24/7 that cost $200 bucks. Go figure.

Now I know they won't be the same quality, but heck, I bought a Russian night vision monocular in the '90s for $225. All the thing needs is output to Bluetooth, and we would have a pretty useful in-cockpit app.

I will bet they are out there.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3...
Click to expand...

Those ones at your pool won't likely help much, real FLIR units run from 1-30 grand each
 
Kitplanes Mag had an article on a GRT FLIR installation on a RV-8 in the July Issue. $4500 for the kit.

Cheers
 
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Hey Jay, what does your current panel look like anyway?
 
I don't think Bluetooth has the bandwidth to deliver video. So, it has to be WiFi. Although, I heard talks about Bluetooth "step up negotiation" option, when 2 BT devices could step up to WiFi MAC and thus get the bandwifth.

IMHO the ideal approach would be a cabled solution based on Ethernet, although of course that presumes a possibly dockable tablet which has an RJ-45 socket. This is probably asking for too much.
 
wsuffa said:
The one on the pool is NOT a real FLIR device.
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Yep, I found a camera for sale, $200 with a FLIR logo on it,

100-200ft maximum range, not very helpful in the air

Beyond that the Russian NV you got is likely gen1, and again, very limited in usefulness in an aviation setting
 
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Skylane81E said:
Yep, I found a camera for sale, $200 with a FLIR logo on it,

100-200ft maximum range, not very helpful in the air

Beyond that the Russian NV you got is likely gen1, and again, very limited in usefulness in an aviation setting
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The "range" of that camera is likely just the limit of it's internal IR illumination. The important issue with IR cameras is the "noise floor". This can be improved dramatically by lowering the temperature of the imager.
 
I know this isn't what the OP is talking about, but since we are on the subject of high dollar IR/FLIR systems for civil aircraft, I will just say that I don't even want to think about what one of those costs to maintain. If our FLIR pods are any sort of litmus test, I'd imagine that it would require a lot of maintenance.
 
35 AoA said:
I know this isn't what the OP is talking about, but since we are on the subject of high dollar IR/FLIR systems for civil aircraft, I will just say that I don't even want to think about what one of those costs to maintain. If our FLIR pods are any sort of litmus test, I'd imagine that it would require a lot of maintenance.
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Really? How come?
 
Jay Honeck said:
Really? How come?
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I don't know. They just break a lot. Be it tracker errors, cold weather, glitches in the software, etc. We have AT's that get paid full time to troubleshoot them and we have not only parts support, but also depot level maintenance (where broken pods go to get broken down and really worked on). I can't begin to imagine what it would cost to pay for all of that out of pocket. Granted we use targeting pods with lasers and other much more fancy features not required for a basic nav FLIR, but even the basic components wear out over time.
 
I think a Dynon with SV would be cheaper and far more effective. You're shooting an instrument approach with all your basic instruments overlaid on a synthetic background. You see the terrain, obstructions and the end of the runway. Even in a bind (emergency) with no instrument approach, you could fly the SV all the way to the runway.
 
There are two different things. A low light camera is a whole lot different than a FLIR. You can get cheap low light cameras (though I've not seen one specifically set up for a tablet). FLIRs on the other hand are going to be costly and bulky mostly because it takes something to keep the sensor cool or it won't work. Some use elaborate liquid nitrogen cooling systems. The DFLIR we used in our lab just used regular car antifreeze but it did continuously circulate it through a heat exchanger.

Amusingly one of the analog FLIRs we were screwing with in the test room the most prominent thing that showed up in the image was it's own power cord (while it didn't feel warm, it certainly was giving off some heat).

Low light level have some other issues. While they are inexpensive and fairly sensitive, the video is noisy (though we had the opportunity to average accross a couple of frames to reduce this) and *any* extraneous light will desensitize them pretty much through out the field of view, so it has to be really uniformly dark.

We get the NG blackhawks making low passes at might (sometimes they land) in my side yard because even if our runway lights come on, it's pretty feeble. Other than that it's pretty dark out there.
 
Heck with the implementation, I'm trying to figure out how a FLIR is going to 'significantly enhance safety' on a GA airplane.

Nauga,
and his DRS turret
 
nauga said:
Heck with the implementation, I'm trying to figure out how a FLIR is going to 'significantly enhance safety' on a GA airplane.

Nauga,
and his DRS turret
Click to expand...

Not to mention that if someone uses a good FLIR unit that they will run afoul of export regulations if they cross the border. I would also suspect that detection of same by the DHS folks might well lead to detention and search as they may suspect drug running.
 
nauga said:
Heck with the implementation, I'm trying to figure out how a FLIR is going to 'significantly enhance safety' on a GA airplane.

Nauga,
and his DRS turret
Click to expand...

Well, selection of a field in an off airport emergency landing would no longer be an "aim for the dark spot and pray" moment, for one thing.

In Iowa, it would have been great for spotting deer on or near the runway. We used to do a low pass, just to scare 'em away.

I would think any approach at night would be enhanced by having a low light camera image displayed on a panel-mounted tablet. It certainly seems doable.

Although a real "FLIR" seems to be out of the question. I didn't know they still had active cooling. But a regular low light infrared camera seems pretty affordable.
 
I think LLTV/FLIR in the cockpit could be 'cool' but I don't think we have similar views regarding safety enhancements.

Nauga,
who would rather have a decent multimode radar
 
Regarding the cooling with FLIR, 150mph of air movement won't take care of the problem?
 
SVT will not show you those hogs that just started crossing about 700' down the strip at night. Lets hope you have HID lights and you're not staring at SVT on short final. :nono:

Good idea Jay, run with it.

I want to go Frankenstein on an RV8 and leave antiquated times behind myself. I love our C-180, and I may keep it until they take it away, but ten$ of thousand$ to install a closed source soon-to-be-obsolete-glass panel is BS. :no:
 
txflyer said:
SVT will not show you those hogs that just started crossing about 700' down the strip at night. Lets hope you have HID lights and you're not staring at SVT on short final. :nono:

Good idea Jay, run with it.

I want to go Frankenstein on an RV8 and leave antiquated times behind myself. I love our C-180, and I may keep it until they take it away, but ten$ of thousand$ to install a closed source soon-to-be-obsolete-glass panel is BS. :no:
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Exactly!
 
My aircraft has real time SVT so I can see other aircraft, people, birds, and yes...hogs. :)
 
EdFred said:
Regarding the cooling with FLIR, 150mph of air movement won't take care of the problem?
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A FLIR requires some heroic cooling of the focal plane array to be really sensitive. Usually a cryo cooler or super cooled nitrogen. Much more than any free stream air.

Cheers
 
EdFred said:
Regarding the cooling with FLIR, 150mph of air movement won't take care of the problem?
Click to expand...

It's not a matter of removing excess heat produced from operation, like the cooling of an engine. It's a matter of lowering the temperature of a sensor well below ambient so the noise floor of the detector is low enough that the ground, or a deer, or a lake, or whatever will show up as warmer than "background."
 
Velocity173 said:
My aircraft has real time SVT so I can see other aircraft, people, birds, and yes...hogs. :)
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Then you must have FLIR streaming into the SVT. :confused:

SVT is just a mapping database updated relevant to your GPS position. I didn't know they've integrated future mammalian and obstacle movement into it yet...I'll have to look into that one .... :rolleyes:
 
Jay Honeck said:
Yet I've got one watching my pool 24/7 that cost $200 bucks. Go figure.
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The one watching your pool is a standard CCD with the IR filters removed, and a crap-ton of IR LEDs illuminating the area.

You can make one out of any old video camera by removing the filters yourself and some IR LEDs.

The "real" ones don't need the IR illumination. They're orders of magnitude more sensitive.
 
X3 Skier said:
A FLIR requires some heroic cooling of the focal plane array to be really sensitive. Usually a cryo cooler or super cooled nitrogen. Much more than any free stream air.
Click to expand...

What's really nifty is realizing they do the same thing for certain receivers that need to hear incredibly weak signals in the RF portion of the spectrum.

Same concept, just radio instead of light wavelengths. ;)

Driving that annoying heat noise down... It's all about decaying heat vibrating molecules...

Fun stuff.
 
Here is a picture of what I want in the RV-8A. It's available as an option in Mercedes automobiles.

e9agy3ag.jpg
 
Jay Honeck said:
Here is a picture of what I want in the RV-8A. It's available as an option in Mercedes automobiles.

e9agy3ag.jpg
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Jay,
What you want is available RIGHT NOW since you've finally come to the dark side and are Experimental.

I'm certainly no expert and am willing to be corrected if I'm wrong, but I see a lot of information here that sounds incorrect or outdated to me. Commercial FLIR has made some significant progress recently. I would NEVER argue that this is as good as a $500,000 military system or that you should launch into IFR with nothing but FLIR, but there is some pretty amazing stuff out there that DOESN'T require active cooling, that CAN be overlaid on an EFIS and that is, in aviation terms, pretty dang thrifty.

First, for a commercially available, non-actively cooled FLIR camera from FLIR systems, see http://www.opticsplanet.com/flir-pathfindir-30-hertz-nightvision-thermal-ntsc-camera.html. You're looking at $2,500 for an uncooled, commercial grade and easily aviation adaptable FLIR camera.

Bolt that on to a Grand Rapids EFIS and you have:

Picture courtesy of Grand Rapids - http://www.grtavionics.com/hxscreenshots.html

The FLIR system is available for certified aircraft too for something like $10k-$15k but I can't find reference now. That money doesn't get you EFIS integration, but rather a separate screen kind of like what Jay was looking for originally.

For those of us in the Experimental world, we can put in and entire FLIR system linked to our complete EFIS for that kind of money. If you're not looking to spend that kind of cash, you can roll your own for something around $3,000 after considering mount, fairing and cheap PAL composite monitor.
 

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But if you build it yourself it won't have Garmin stickers on it...
 
iflyforfun said:
Jay,
What you want is available RIGHT NOW since you've finally come to the dark side and are Experimental.

I'm certainly no expert and am willing to be corrected if I'm wrong, but I see a lot of information here that sounds incorrect or outdated to me. Commercial FLIR has made some significant progress recently. I would NEVER argue that this is as good as a $500,000 military system or that you should launch into IFR with nothing but FLIR, but there is some pretty amazing stuff out there that DOESN'T require active cooling, that CAN be overlaid on an EFIS and that is, in aviation terms, pretty dang thrifty.

First, for a commercially available, non-actively cooled FLIR camera from FLIR systems, see http://www.opticsplanet.com/flir-pathfindir-30-hertz-nightvision-thermal-ntsc-camera.html. You're looking at $2,500 for an uncooled, commercial grade and easily aviation adaptable FLIR camera.

Bolt that on to a Grand Rapids EFIS and you have:

Picture courtesy of Grand Rapids - http://www.grtavionics.com/hxscreenshots.html

The FLIR system is available for certified aircraft too for something like $10k-$15k but I can't find reference now. That money doesn't get you EFIS integration, but rather a separate screen kind of like what Jay was looking for originally.

For those of us in the Experimental world, we can put in and entire FLIR system linked to our complete EFIS for that kind of money. If you're not looking to spend that kind of cash, you can roll your own for something around $3,000 after considering mount, fairing and cheap PAL composite monitor.
Click to expand...

That's what I'm talking about! Very cool.

Thanks for sharing that. Another thing to add to the "want" list that is suddenly not only doable, but actually affordable, too.
 
Jay Honeck said:
That's what I'm talking about! Very cool.

Thanks for sharing that. Another thing to add to the "want" list that is suddenly not only doable, but actually affordable, too.
Click to expand...

That's the system described in the Kitplanes article I mentioned in post 8.

Cheers
 
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