Flight Training Questions

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Em_chopper

Filing Flight Plan
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Em_chopper
Hi, I'm new to this forum.

I would like to begin flight training soon but I need some answers to a few question to help me decide the best route for my goal. Hopefully a few of you have been down this road before and can give me some helpful advice since I am completely new to this.

My goal is to become a career pilot. I would prefer to fly helicopters for a career and I have taken an intro flight and loved the experience. I would also like to get my fixed wing license since I intend to one day own an airplane.

I have been told it is less expensive to get my fixed wing licenses first then get the helicopter add-on. My question is How far should I go with the fixed wing training before getting my add-on? I need to keep the cost as low as possible. I was quoted roughly $35,000 to get training up to CFI for fixed wing. I have yet to get a quote for the heli add-on. I'm working on it. Quoted 70,000-90,000 from newbie to heli CFI depending on how fast I learn. But I don't have that kind of cash right now.

My friend works for someone that is a fixed wing CFI. He said he would be happy to train me. My concern about being trained by a school and especially privately is their safety records. Is there a way I can look up a schools or an individuals safety record? Also if I was privately trained by an individual CFI will I still be able to aquire the licenses I need to get? Will a future employer think of me the same way? Is it worth saving money being trained by an individual CFI?

I have also been told it would be worth buying an inexpensive airplane to aquire the hours I need in order to one day be hired, and these hours should also apply to the helicopter even though I will be aquiring these hours in a fixed wing aircraft. Maybe someone here can confirm this?

That's all for now. Thanks for your time.
 
I had PPSEL flew all my commercial XC hours fixed wing then added Commercial Helicopter in 35 hours or so. Spent a bunch more time getting the CFI-H. Still way under insurance minimums, I found an employer who took a chance on me, not sure I'd want to bet on finding that though.
I'd either go straight to helicopters and suck it up or get PPSEL then add PPH and do all your commercial time in the helicopter. Getting the PPSEL first probably won't save you much if any $ but it is handy to have and you likely won't spring for it if go straight to helicopters.
FYI I quit my helicopter flying job to take a job as a waiter. Not sure what it is like these days but it isn't for the weak, or people that like eating, or living in one place for more than 6 months.
 
Assuming you have the other professional qualifications (education like a college degree may be required depending on the employer), nobody is going to care where you got your certificates. They will care about the experience you have piloting their kinds of airplanes doing their kind of work.

In essence, that 30-70K gets you the certificates to get an entry-level job, at least in the fixed-wing world. This could be teaching, flying pipeline patrol, or even (depending on the timing and the rules at the time) a professional copilot job for a regional airline or charter operation.

Helicopters are... different. I hope Laurie DuPuis or another of the professional rotorheads chime in with their guidance on the career path.

Best wishes
 
Em_chopper said:
Hi, I'm new to this forum.

I would like to begin flight training soon but I need some answers to a few question to help me decide the best route for my goal. Hopefully a few of you have been down this road before and can give me some helpful advice since I am completely new to this.

My goal is to become a career pilot. I would prefer to fly helicopters for a career and I have taken an intro flight and loved the experience. I would also like to get my fixed wing license since I intend to one day own an airplane.

I have been told it is less expensive to get my fixed wing licenses first then get the helicopter add-on. My question is How far should I go with the fixed wing training before getting my add-on? I need to keep the cost as low as possible. I was quoted roughly $35,000 to get training up to CFI for fixed wing. I have yet to get a quote for the heli add-on. I'm working on it. Quoted 70,000-90,000 from newbie to heli CFI depending on how fast I learn. But I don't have that kind of cash right now.

My friend works for someone that is a fixed wing CFI. He said he would be happy to train me. My concern about being trained by a school and especially privately is their safety records. Is there a way I can look up a schools or an individuals safety record? Also if I was privately trained by an individual CFI will I still be able to aquire the licenses I need to get? Will a future employer think of me the same way? Is it worth saving money being trained by an individual CFI?

I have also been told it would be worth buying an inexpensive airplane to aquire the hours I need in order to one day be hired, and these hours should also apply to the helicopter even though I will be aquiring these hours in a fixed wing aircraft. Maybe someone here can confirm this?

That's all for now. Thanks for your time.
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My CFI flies helicopters and he told me the cheapest way to do this is as you suggested - get your Private Pilot Cert first (to learn about things like FAA regs, airport operations, radio, flight physics, etc. and then the only "new" thing when you train helicopter is the helicopter itself and not everything is "new).

Also, my quote of around 60 hours to checkride was not accurate. It ended up around 90 hours which SIGNIFICANTLY increased my costs. I also paid several hundred dollars for things like video ground school courses online, testing fees, flight bag, headset, etc. so your quote may be for the CFI time and airplane time but beware the other numerous fees you will encounter.
 
There's the cheapest way to get anything done, and the way they'll want to see in your logbook to get hired... just keep that in mind... probably worth figuring out where you'd want to work and what they'll be looking for, instead of worrying about the FAA minimums... since the FAA minimums will be far below what anyone hiring wants.
 
Welcome to POA. I've heard that the PPL to helicopter route is the more cost efficient way to go, but I'm not sure which career path those people went afterwards.

I know of a helicopter flight school here that will train their heli pilots and them offer them jobs as CFI's and for other charter jobs as needed. This way the owner gets to know the person and knows this person's flying capabilities and strengths/weaknesses.

Which ever avenue you take, I wish you the best of luck.
 
I rent a Cessna 152 for $70/hr. The FBO near me that rents/trains in Schweitzer 300-CB goes for $290/hr last time I checked. Ouch.

So... I would just do fixed wing. :)
 
Thanks everyone!

I talked to the head pilot at the heli flight school today. She said I would be better off just going there and not taking any fixed wing training classes because I would have a few bad habbits from the fixed wing and I will have to get 200 hours in the helicopter anyways to get my CFI so in the end I'm actually spending more money. To me that sounds odd because I keep hearing that it's much less expensive to get a fixed wing license first. I will call another flight school tomorrow to confirm this. She also pointed out that I may want to be trained by a school instead of an individual for safety reasons and having a hard time finding a job because he doesn't hire pilots like the school does. She also said when she's looking to hire she looks for seat time in the helicopter and would rather avoid hiring someone with fixed wing experience. I thought it would be the other way around, interesting. The way she puts it, it sounds like having a fixed wing license won't help at all.

I think I need to schedule an intro flight in an airplane to help me decide if I want to fly helicopters as a career afterall. I like flying in helicopters but I'm wondering if it's worth the cost of the training. On the other hand I think most new fixed wing pilots make much less than I'm making at my job now.

Military is not an option because they can decide that you're not going to be a pilot even after the recruiter promisses that you will be. Then if I became and stayed a pilot, I have to work for at least 6 years and they always try to keep you longer than that and I'll be working who knows where.

Greg, what do you mean you found an employer that took a chance with you? Was there something that made you less attractive to an employer?

Thanks everyone for the fast replies. I read every word!
 
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I didn't have enough hours to be insured so my employer was taking a big risk on me, all worked out OK. Same thing the woman at the flight school is talking about. Just because you have the license doesn't mean you have enough hours to be covered under an employer's helicopter insurance. Not starting in fixed wing is a valid concern. The biggest advantage to starting fixed wing is you will already have the rating, after blowing helo flight school money and hopefully working as a pilot you likely won't have the money or the will to pick up a fixed wing rating.
If you have a good job and are making OK money, and there is a local flight school go get your private helicopter rating. Pay as you go, don't borrow and throw down a huge chunk of cash. Then play it from there. Worst case scenario you have a unused private helo rating that you can impress chicks with, best case you keep adding ratings and meeting people til you get where you want to be. And of course, very important you avoid paying for something that doesn't work for you.
 
The one thing I can say to help make your decision, How many jobs are out there right now for heli compared to fixed wing? also there are alot of heli pilots coming out the military!

As far as the private CFI vs school, the school is a business, they need to make money, most private CFI's like myself have fulltime jobs doing something else and and instruct as side work. My case, I wanted to do the career pilot, did the flight school instructing, up to charters and realized it wasn't for me. I would much rather teach on the side and enjoy it. I have a place I rent the AC from. the student pays the place directly, and pays me directly, which also gives me the flexibility to adjust my price is needed, one student was a mechanic, I needed work on my car, he did the work, I did 4 or 5 lessons not charging him for my time.
 
California is different, but I can say that as an Executive Assistant (sure call me a secretary) without a college degree, I've made from $36,000 to over $75,000 per year, depending on the location. It sucks that Helo / Airplane pilots spend so much money on training and don't make nearly as much in their first year as a "pro."

I have 15 years of experience, now, but make nowhere near $75K. That was a once in a lifetime job and super stressful (only worked there 3 months).

The income potential and number of jobs available are an important consideration.
 
One thing you might think about is that when you see helicopter jobs advertised they usually ask for time in category not total time. I got a helicopter add-on after I already had substantial fixed-wing time but I realized that I was far more marketable as a fixed-wing pilot than as a newbie helicopter pilot. Who knows, it might have worked out OK but it would have required moving around to a lot of places I didn't want to go in order to build time and at that point I decided to stay with fixed-wing.
 
Flying for a living(yes the majors too) is a blue collar job. The barrier to entry isn't as high as it seems. The dollar cost of one year of private college tuition/room and board will get you your tickets, a year of giving flight instruction with a little charter work thrown in, presto ATP. As qualified as anyone else(technically speaking.)
 
Em_chopper said:
Thanks everyone!

I talked to the head pilot at the heli flight school today. She said I would be better off just going there and not taking any fixed wing training classes because I would have a few bad habbits from the fixed wing and I will have to get 200 hours in the helicopter anyways to get my CFI so in the end I'm actually spending more money. To me that sounds odd because I keep hearing that it's much less expensive to get a fixed wing license first. I will call another flight school tomorrow to confirm this. She also pointed out that I may want to be trained by a school instead of an individual for safety reasons and having a hard time finding a job because he doesn't hire pilots like the school does. She also said when she's looking to hire she looks for seat time in the helicopter and would rather avoid hiring someone with fixed wing experience. I thought it would be the other way around, interesting. The way she puts it, it sounds like having a fixed wing license won't help at all.
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Um, I've known a few helicopter snobs (yes, and fixed-wing ones, too) in the day, and to me this sounds like one. I'd call up a few different helicopter schools, even if they are not in your area to get some different opinions. I worked at a nearby helicopter school for a while as a shop helper and I'm not sure I would buy the advise you've been given. If you got with the right private individual, you might be more marketable... it all depends on who that individual is and how well you are trained. Regarding fixed-wing training giving you bad habits, she may be right, and may be wrong. You need to learn to use your rudder well, which will help with the helicopter work. My best ever / fastest tailwheel endorsement was with a guy who'd learned to use his feet in a helicopter, and I suspect it might work the other way, too.

Ryan
 
It is negative transfer from fixed to rotor. Done it, taught it. And the total time issue is still there.
 
I asked the chief of a local school (Enchantment Helicopters) how much time it takes to gain the helicopter rating, and he said that on average it is about 60 hours. It's a surprisingly large number, as I took my airplane checkride at 72 hours.
 
zaitcev said:
I asked the chief of a local school (Enchantment Helicopters) how much time it takes to gain the helicopter rating, and he said that on average it is about 60 hours. It's a surprisingly large number, as I took my airplane checkride at 72 hours.
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I looked, and I got the private add-on at 55 hours and the commercial at 81. It took a long time to solo, 31 hours. I seem to remember that is because you needed to be able to do autorotations pretty reliably before they would let you solo.
 
The finest Rotary Wing flight school in the world belongs to the U.S. Army. You REALLY need to reconsider your dismissal of that potential opportunity. Do you want to fart around in Robinsons for the next five years or spend it in something like an Apache ? What's going to look better to a civilian helicopter employer down the road - six or seven years of military time or six or seven years at Smedley's School of Aviation and Snowmobile Repair ?
 
Art VanDelay said:
The finest Rotary Wing flight school in the world belongs to the U.S. Army. You REALLY need to reconsider your dismissal of that potential opportunity. Do you want to fart around in Robinsons for the next five years or spend it in something like an Apache ? What's going to look better to a civilian helicopter employer down the road - six or seven years of military time or six or seven years at Smedley's School of Aviation and Snowmobile Repair ?
Click to expand...

I agree with this, IF the OP can qualify. There's a lot of competition in all the services for flying jobs, and manned flying is on the decline in most services due to UAVs.
 
Em_chopper said:
Thanks everyone!

I talked to the head pilot at the heli flight school today. She said I would be better off just going there and not taking any fixed wing training classes because I would have a few bad habbits from the fixed wing and I will have to get 200 hours in the helicopter anyways to get my CFI so in the end I'm actually spending more money. To me that sounds odd because I keep hearing that it's much less expensive to get a fixed wing license first. I will call another flight school tomorrow to confirm this. She also pointed out that I may want to be trained by a school instead of an individual for safety reasons and having a hard time finding a job because he doesn't hire pilots like the school does. She also said when she's looking to hire she looks for seat time in the helicopter and would rather avoid hiring someone with fixed wing experience. I thought it would be the other way around, interesting. The way she puts it, it sounds like having a fixed wing license won't help at all.

I think I need to schedule an intro flight in an airplane to help me decide if I want to fly helicopters as a career afterall. I like flying in helicopters but I'm wondering if it's worth the cost of the training. On the other hand I think most new fixed wing pilots make much less than I'm making at my job now.

Military is not an option because they can decide that you're not going to be a pilot even after the recruiter promisses that you will be. Then if I became and stayed a pilot, I have to work for at least 6 years and they always try to keep you longer than that and I'll be working who knows where.

Greg, what do you mean you found an employer that took a chance with you? Was there something that made you less attractive to an employer?

Thanks everyone for the fast replies. I read every word!
Click to expand...

When I was in the Army, there was no way out early short of a Dishonorable or General Discharge, which would be a career ending step in your life. In today's military on the other hand, there are ways that a person can resign, especially if your chosen MOS did not work out.

Six years sounds like a lifetime to someone in their teens or early twenties, but it would be a great experience and a great way to build a solid future in aviation.

Another advantage to learning to fly in the military; you get paid while doing it, rather than paying TO do it. If it doesn't work out, it may very well not have worked out in civilian life either. The difference is that if it doesn't work out in the military, you won't be out all that money, or worse yet, be in debt for it.
 
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Eh I gotta disagree with anyone who says that flying is a blue collar job.

The cost of in-state tuition at a major state university was about $25k for me. add in books (huge rip off) and you're at around 32k. Student loans are available too, and financial aid which brings down the cost considerably.

Assuming you get your CFI in a minimum amount of time, you're looking at spending at a minimum 20k on airplane costs, add another 7k for instructor, materials, tests, checkrides and you're at 27k. And then you have to get to 1500 hours somehow, while accumulating the right kind of experience to make you attractive to potential employers.

A good pilot is also a 'professional', because the job requires it. You have to be extremely diligent, competent and do things by the book or you won't have a career, and you might kill yourself and passengers. Same as a Doctor, Lawyer, Accountant...
 
MBDiagMan said:
When I was in the Army, there was no way out early short of a Dishonorable or General Discharge, which would be a career ending step in your life. In today's military on the other hand, there are ways that a person can resign, especially if your chosen MOS did not work out.

Six years sounds like a lifetime to someone in their teens or early twenties, but it would be a great experience and a great way to build a solid future in aviation.

Another advantage to learning to fly in the military; you get paid while doing it, rather than paying TO do it. If it doesn't work out, it may very well not have worked out in civilian life either. The difference is that if it doesn't work out in the military, you won't be out all that money, or worse yet, be in debt for it.
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I joined when I was 17 , went to boot between my JR and SR year in high school , after graduation went on to my MOS training. I spent 15 years in the guard , had my paperwork ready to be submitted for the States Aviation program then got injured on a training op. The injury shot my chances to fly Army. The good news with it all , I got medically retired at 30% , collect a full pension at age 34 and currently using that pension money to pay for my current flight training.

I wouldn't have been able to be commissioned as I did not have enough college credits , but met the requirements for WOCS. I just wish I had perused it earlier on in my career. ESPECIALLY when the Guard was going to send me through all the training.
 
dell30rb said:
Eh I gotta disagree with anyone who says that flying is a blue collar job.
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Thing is, the amount of money you spend has NOTHING to do with whether the job is White Collar vs Blue Collar. Neither does whether or not you spend lots of time learning your trade.

Lots of people are "PROFESSIONAL" blue collar workers.
 
One more bit to consider - ask you local helicopter flight school how many full touchdown autorotations (meaning to the ground) you will get in your training. A friend of mine who went thru Army flight training said he quit counting after about 270 and that was only about two thirds of the way thru training. Also consider too that the U.S. Army INVENTED flying under Night Vision Goggles. Nowhere in the civilian world will you get training that will even come close to that when it comes to NVGs.

But if you would rather spend upwards of 90k so that you will qualify for a job that only pays about 24k a year for the first four or five years don't let us stop you.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Thing is, the amount of money you spend has NOTHING to do with whether the job is White Collar vs Blue Collar. Neither does whether or not you spend lots of time learning your trade.

Lots of people are "PROFESSIONAL" blue collar workers.
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Then what defines the difference between the two?

And to add to what the others are saying, unless you have a lot of inheritance or you win the lotto, or you saved up 100k or more, the only really smart way to go about becoming a helicopter pilot is through the military. I'm sure there are exceptions, but going the civilian route is really only effective for fixed wing.
 
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I still have a lot to consider. Thanks for all the advice so far.

Is there a good website to see job listings for pilots? I would imagine pilot jobs are not in the typical career finder websites. I looked and only found one job for Boeing but it doesn't say what the compensation is. I guess it's possible they will never say because of pilots various skill levels and experience. It makes sence that they would make an offer based on that.

Has anyone ever found a grant for flight training? I've been looking and haven't found anything yet.
 
The helicopter forums used to have job postings. Never visited them much and haven't in a long time. Justhelicopters was one of the bigger ones and there was another one that escapes me now. Pprune has/had a helicopter section that had traffic as well. Warning you now they are fairly caustic boards, but likely full of people that more recently made the same decisions you are considering.
 
Em_chopper said:
I still have a lot to consider. Thanks for all the advice so far.

Is there a good website to see job listings for pilots? I would imagine pilot jobs are not in the typical career finder websites. I looked and only found one job for Boeing but it doesn't say what the compensation is. I guess it's possible they will never say because of pilots various skill levels and experience. It makes sence that they would make an offer based on that.

Has anyone ever found a grant for flight training? I've been looking and haven't found anything yet.
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Someone, I think Mari, posted the rates for a regional airline, for first officers and captains, based on number of years with the airline, etc. They had a very predictable / organized pay structure. It wasn't a lot though.
 
Thanks, I'll look into these sites. I just wanted to see what the compensation is for various pilot jobs. I think most people want to do as good as we can for ourselves afterall.

I talked with someone from the other heli school in the area. It sounds as if it may be less expensive to get my ppl fixed wing first and fixed wing hours will help with heli training but I'm waiting for a call back from the owner.

I'm going to call a fixed wing school to get an intro flight scheduled. I have to give it a try before jumping into another helicoptor.
 
Upfront disclaimer: Just my 2 cents. YMMV.
Eighteen months ago I was just about where you are now. I would DEF think long and hard about the military option if it is at all possible for you. The armed forces create great pilots...I know a few of them...they are very solid...they have lots of experience to lean on in times of stress...and you get flight experience (night, vertical reference, Night vison goggles...etc) that is very very hard to come by. (I am over 40 btw..., so no go for me re military, but I kick myself daily for not going that direction when I was younger...I sure wish I had gone that way back when I was 22 or so....)
Do the heli first is my suggestion. Get REALLY solid on the helicopter. Then if you want to go fixed wing, knock yourself out. I talked to over 30 different folks before deciding on heli first, then finally went heli first. I talked for hours to a buddy of mine in Civil Air Patrol who flew Apaches for the Army for several hundred hours in Iraq. He convinced that I would have tons of negative transfer from the fixed wing world and would possibly even be dangerous. (Now that I have flown Heli and am now working on ASEL I understand EXACTLY what he was talking about....the thought process, the flight controls, the dangerous things that might kill you in a heli...are all REALLY different than in the fixed wing world...and....there is this thing called primacy of learning that essentially says "whatever you learn first sticks with you in times of trouble, danger or stress.....which means that there have several fixed wing pilots who later transfered over to helis and drove themselves into the ground during what would have normally been a relatively small bore emergency...)
If you go fixed wing first you will also have several bad habits that will most likely take even longer to unlearn. It is MUCH harder to unlearn a habit than it is to first create the correct habit.
I would also plan on it taking MUCH longer than 40 hrs. Try (if at all possible) to fly 4/5 times per week. 1/2 times per week is barely enough to make any progress at all. This is one of the keys that no one tells you. Heli flying skill degrades daily with each passing day you are away from flying when you are a new student. After a while (a few hundred hours probably...) you are solid enough that it doesn't degrade so fast, but some of the EP's in particular just vanish if you don't do them consistently enough. I know eight other heli private students and they all range from the high 50's to 90's to their private checkride. (I was right about 80ish...) Feel free to PM if you have further questions.
And.... BEST of luck whatever direction you choose...there are some great folks on here at POA...--)))
 
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