Flight to York, PA and a question

BrianR

BrianR

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BrianR
So I made a rather impromptu flight yesterday from central NY down to KTHV in York. It was the first time flying out of state since I got my ticket, as well as my longest cross country to date. It was one of those absolutely gorgeous days to fly. The entire return trip was made at night, which was also great experience. There's nothing like being able to identify cities 100 miles away by the lights!

I was "talking and squawking" all the way down. I obtained a DUATS briefing, checked for notams and TFRs, and finding none of consequence, proceeded on my merry way.

Now, I was aware of the restricted area near Fort Indiantown Gap, since the examiner asked me about it during my PP oral. However, the info on the sectional clearly indicates it's in effect only on Saturdays and Sundays.

So as I passed just east of Harrisburg, imagine my surprise when Harrisburg approach suddenly gave me vectors east "to avoid restricted airspace." I'm quite sure I was past the Fort Indiantown Gap area. The frequency was busy, and not wanting to sound like a total idiot by asking what the heck he was talking about, I just acknowledged and complied. After going maybe 10 miles to the east, I was allowed to proceed on course to York.

For those of you familiar with the area (Dan Mc, I think you're nearby?) what's the deal? I checked and rechecked the data, and didn't find anything I missed. Three mile island? It's not even noted on the sectional, although I believe it would have been about in my route of flight. In any event, I certainly wasn't intending to loiter over it. There's no blanket TFR about simply overflying a nuclear plant descending out of 8500, is there? I know you're not supposed to loiter or circle, but...what else could it have been?
 
One thing could have been that the President was on his way to Camp David, and they were keeping you well away from his flight path.
 
You could call the TRACON and ask about it.
 
A-10s routinely come up from MD and practice during the week, and helicopters come to EETS to train.

Also, there's often mortar and artillery firing during the week as various units begin conducting Annual Training (yes, even in April -- the OPTEMPO of the past 10 years has forced more creative AT scheduling).

Don't think Marine One flight path would be the issue around the Gap... Though I have observed AF1 (well, one of the 747s) practicing approaches at KMDT.

That sounds like a very nice first long XC. Why York? There's not much going on at the airport right now....?
 
Are you sure it wasn't active?

R-5802B Fort Indiantown Gap, PA
Boundaries. Beginning at lat. 40°25'06"N., long. 76°44'47"W.; to lat. 40°28'31"N., long. 76°36'21"W.; to lat. 40°27'13"N., long. 76°35'13"W.; to lat. 40°26'18"N., long. 76°36'40"W.; to lat. 40°23'24"N., long. 76°43'34"W.; to the point of beginning. Designated altitudes. Surface to 13,000 feet MSL.
Time of designation. February 15 through May 10 and September 1 through December 15, 0800-2300 local time on Saturdays and 0800-1200 local time on Sundays; May 11 through August 31, 0800-2400 local time on Saturdays and 0800-2000 local time on all other days; other times by NOTAM issued at least 48 hours in advance.
 
Brad Z said:
Are you sure it wasn't active?

R-5802B Fort Indiantown Gap, PA

Time of designation.

February 15 through May 10 and September 1 through December 15, 0800-2300 local time on Saturdays and 0800-1200 local time on Sundays;

May 11 through August 31, 0800-2400 local time on Saturdays and 0800-2000 local time on all other days;

other times by NOTAM issued at least 48 hours in advance.

[broken up for ease of reading]
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May is still ahead of us this year. That said, the OP might want to recheck the Airspace NOTAMs section of that DUATs briefing to see if there was a NOTAM that was missed. In any event, this is another example of using all your resourced (including flight following) to stay out of harm's way.
 
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If I recall correctly the Gaps restricted area can be activated outside the published times with 48 hours advanced notice. The Saturday Sunday hours are from I think Feb through May given our early good Wx here in PA perhaps they are doing more training earlier.
 
spinfire said:
You could call the TRACON and ask about it.
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Good idea. I did exactly that this morning. He said the issue was indeed R5802, around the Fort Indiantown Gap area. Contrary to my interpretation, he said it's pretty much always active.

Guess it would have been to my advantage to actually call FSS and talk to a briefer before departure, rather than relying on my obviously-flawed interpretation of the notam.
 
dmccormack said:
Why York? There's not much going on at the airport right now....?
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Yeah, it was pretty dead, though looked to be a nice enough airport. The FBO lady was just closing up as we arrived around 7. And the on-field restaurant was closed.

I am trying to pick up some additional XC time before starting my instrument training, as the CFII I'll be using prefers I have most of the 50 hours done ahead of time. I found a last-minute passenger, and she has relatives in York she hadn't seen in some time. And, the relatives bought dinner at a nice place in town! :D

And, the terrain was such that I was comfortable departing after dark, which is not always the case with an airport I haven't been to previously, especially here in upstate NY, where hills and granite can ruin your night.
 
BrianR said:
And, the terrain was such that I was comfortable departing after dark, which is not always the case with an airport I haven't been to previously, especially here in upstate NY, where hills and granite can ruin your night.
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Depends on where you are in "Upstate NY", but those little ridges between York and anywhere east of Albany will ruin you're night as fast as a Granite Mountain.
 
dmccormack said:
Depends on where you are in "Upstate NY", but those little ridges between York and anywhere east of Albany will ruin you're night as fast as a Granite Mountain.
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Or, more accurately, those spears stuck up on top of those little ridges will ruin your day.
 
dmccormack said:
Depends on where you are in "Upstate NY", but those little ridges between York and anywhere east of Albany will ruin you're night as fast as a Granite Mountain.
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I've yet to venture east of Albany in the airplane. Destination was Rome to drop off my passengers, then to Syracuse, where the plane is based. Except for that fairly narrow ridge which runs southwest from Scranton, I had airports in sight (or via the NRST button:wink2:) almost all the way back. It's amazing how many airport beacons you can see from 7500 ft on a completely clear night!
 
BrianR said:
I've yet to venture east of Albany in the airplane. Destination was Rome to drop off my passengers, then to Syracuse, where the plane is based. Except for that fairly narrow ridge which runs southwest from Scranton, I had airports in sight (or via the NRST button:wink2:) almost all the way back. It's amazing how many airport beacons you can see from 7500 ft on a completely clear night!
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Oh yeah -- that would be a great flight. You follow the corridor of civilization up I-81.

;)
 
BrianR said:
Good idea. I did exactly that this morning. He said the issue was indeed R5802, around the Fort Indiantown Gap area. Contrary to my interpretation, he said it's pretty much always active.

Guess it would have been to my advantage to actually call FSS and talk to a briefer before departure, rather than relying on my obviously-flawed interpretation of the notam.
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I always talk to briefers before every flight. I even ask about TFRs for ball games if I'm going near SF. Then it is on the record that you called. If you got flight following, however, I'm suprised you didn't hear them calling it "hot" to other pilots. In my longest XC, I flew between two MOA's and a nearby restricted area. As I got closer, lots of pilots were asking about whether or not it was "hot" that day. So without having to ask, I was learning from other pilots.
 
Ive been on the ground in the training areas when that range was active. There is nothing more awesome than the A10's circling in for the kill and the sound of those cannons vibrating your insides.

How close were you ? I made a trip from Williamsport to York two weeks ago for my one of my long xc legs. I just hugged the river and Harrisburg approach did not vector me, but I also heard someone else being told to follow the river also unless they wanted vectors around the range.


Another thing was we ( my squadron) had a UAV section who flew them from up there. I do not know how far or where exactly they flew them , but they are active at the Gap.

We used to race Humvees on the tarmac strip for the UAV's when they weren't operational. :D
 
BrianR said:
Good idea. I did exactly that this morning. He said the issue was indeed R5802, around the Fort Indiantown Gap area. Contrary to my interpretation, he said it's pretty much always active.

Guess it would have been to my advantage to actually call FSS and talk to a briefer before departure, rather than relying on my obviously-flawed interpretation of the notam.
Click to expand...


Indiantown Gap is hit-or-miss in my experience. The Lockheed briefers have never told me it was hot, even though it was. I've made a practice of asking Harrisburg Approach for its status whenever I'm nearby, and they've always known. The restricted area isn't very big but it's near the Ravine VOR so it's easy to stumble into it.

jkw
 
I take those Scheduled "hot" times with a grain of salt since my experience with the Cranberry MOA, (circa 1984) in upstate New York. I was flying a scenic flight from Plattsburgh down to Tupper Lake to fly over a Cabin that my family owned on Mt Arab. I called Flight Service (en-route) to confirm that the MOA was inactive. I was told it was. I no sooner crossed the boundary when about 1/4 mile ahead, two F4 Phantoms streaked by my windshield 11 o'clock to 5, in a flash... I did an immediate 180 and vacated the airspace. Scared the crap out of me! :yikes:

Now-days I just navigate around them unless I'm talking to ATC.
 
cavmedic said:
Ive been on the ground in the training areas when that range was active. There is nothing more awesome than the A10's circling in for the kill and the sound of those cannons vibrating your insides.

How close were you ? I made a trip from Williamsport to York two weeks ago for my one of my long xc legs. I just hugged the river and Harrisburg approach did not vector me, but I also heard someone else being told to follow the river also unless they wanted vectors around the range.


Another thing was we ( my squadron) had a UAV section who flew them from up there. I do not know how far or where exactly they flew them , but they are active at the Gap.

We used to race Humvees on the tarmac strip for the UAV's when they weren't operational. :D
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I was only about 10 miles east of the Ravine VOR.

Yeah, I wondered about UAVs, as I'd heard they are occasionally flying in the area.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I always talk to briefers before every flight. I even ask about TFRs for ball games if I'm going near SF. Then it is on the record that you called. If you got flight following, however, I'm suprised you didn't hear them calling it "hot" to other pilots. In my longest XC, I flew between two MOA's and a nearby restricted area. As I got closer, lots of pilots were asking about whether or not it was "hot" that day. So without having to ask, I was learning from other pilots.
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Well, it's "on the record" also using DUATS via ForeFlight, as I did. However, that doesn't help when I misinterpret the notam, or when it's written in so obtuse a manner that you need to be a cryptographer to decipher it. :)

As for it being called out to other traffic, I guess there wasn't much...which is surprising, since it was one of the nicest evenings to fly all spring out here. It was about 6:30 at night, and the only traffic I remember hearing was a regional turboprop or two landing and departing at Harrisburg.
 
BrianR said:
And, the terrain was such that I was comfortable departing after dark, which is not always the case with an airport I haven't been to previously, especially here in upstate NY, where hills and granite can ruin your night.
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Instrument training is great for night VFR as well - Using IFR-style procedures, even when VFR, will keep you out of the hills/rocks/trees/spears you can't see. In particular, check out the Obstacle Departure Procedures in front of the relevant IAP book (or in ForeFlight). IMO this kind of thing should be taught to private pilot candidates.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Instrument training is great for night VFR as well - Using IFR-style procedures, even when VFR, will keep you out of the hills/rocks/trees/spears you can't see. In particular, check out the Obstacle Departure Procedures in front of the relevant IAP book (or in ForeFlight). IMO this kind of thing should be taught to private pilot candidates.
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Yeah, I've pulled up the departure procedures in ForeFlight on a few occasions going out of a new-to-me airport. And I got that idea from internet pilot forums, not from my primary instructors!
 
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