Flight Student Suspected of Having Mild Asperger Syndrome

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I would like to get a medical perspective on this topic as well as a CFI's perspective.

Hypothetically, say I am a high school teacher who works closely with a flight training program. I am not the CFI, but I act sort of like a liaison between the students and the CFI.

The CFI asks me privately about one of the students, particularly if there was anything “wrong” with him. My observations about the student are that he shows some very slight obsessive tendencies and social awkwardness, which might suggest possible leanings toward mild Asperger syndrome. But I am quick to point out that I am not trained in this area, so this is a “lay” observation. The student has never been diagnosed with any kind of ADD, Autism, or Asperger syndrome, and is not on any medications. He functions OK with schoolwork, with help from the school's learning support center.

Most of the other threads I have read are how to get a license if you (or someone suspects you have) Asperger syndrome. My question is, if a CFI suspects a flight student might have such a condition, should he proceed with training? Will an AME catch mild Asperger tendencies in a flight physical? As a high school teacher, if I suspect it, should I get involved and say something? Or leave it for the AME to discover? I am confident that the CFI will not sign the student off to either solo or go for a practical test until he is sure the student is ready and can handle it.

Are there other CFIs out there who have dealt with anything like this before? How did you handle it?
 
Unregistered said:
My observations about the student are that he shows some very slight obsessive tendencies and social awkwardness,
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So what. There are some genuine *******s with pilot certificates.

which might suggest possible leanings toward mild Asperger syndrome.
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Can he handle an airplane and make good decisions or not?

The student has never been diagnosed with any kind of ADD, Autism, or Asperger syndrome, and is not on any medications. He functions OK with schoolwork, with help from the school's learning support center.
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A diagnosis would be a problem.

Or leave it for the AME to discover?
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That would be a ****ty thing to do to the kid.

There are some very high function individuals with this sort of thing that are excellent pilots. If you suspect that there will be an issue with the AME, sending him anyhow to potentially fail and get locked out of the sport pilot option is doing no one any favors.

I am confident that the CFI will not sign the student off to either solo or go for a practical test until he is sure the student is ready and can handle it.
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If he appears to be doing well and appears to be capable when compared to other students, then why shut the kid down?

I would suggest that the student do a consultation with the AME.
 
How does he do in the airplane? If he flies and learns fine and the aspergers tilt is personality, who cares. I'd ask the CFI if he is concerned with progress/safety go from there.
 
Uh. I know of at least one high functioning asperger's airman who not only won the special issuance, but has been released after many years and many flight hours from it.

So, you don't want to paint with a broad brush. Each is an individual, and as we admonish CFI candidates, the instruction must be made to work FOR THAT STUDENT.
 
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This CFI clearly suspects there's something unusual about this student or s/he would not have approached you. If you know anything which might be helpful to that CFI in deciding how to deal with the student, I think you are doing both of them a favor by sharing it. You don't have to diagnose the student or use the term "Asperger's" to do this, just tell the CFI what you have observed in the classroom and let him/her add that to the information s/he has to decide how to handle the situation.
 
Ron Levy said:
This CFI clearly suspects there's something unusual about this student or s/he would not have approached you. If you know anything which might be helpful to that CFI in deciding how to deal with the student, I think you are doing both of them a favor by sharing it. You don't have to diagnose the student or use the term "Asperger's" to do this, just tell the CFI what you have observed in the classroom and let him/her add that to the information s/he has to decide how to handle the situation.
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However assuming the OP is a teacher in the student's school he needs to be very careful about what he says about the student lest he violate HIPPA or other Federal and State Privacy Acts. It might be wise however to approach the student's mother or father.
 
For starters, it's not appropriate for you to discuss a student's personal information with any one other than the school administration and the parents/guardians. I'm in a similar situation (volunteer instructor at a local school) and you just don't do this. If the CFI asks 'if there was anything “wrong” with him', the only response is "I don't understand what you mean. If you have concerns, go talk to the parents".

You are correct when you point out that you are not trained professional but no other opinion should be offered. At the risk of opening this up to another flame war, you may be at risk for liability issues. More important, you may be giving the CFI an incorrect impression of the student.

On the positive side, if the situation is true, the CFI may be able to modify teaching methods to accomodate the student. But that's not for your input, only the parents'.
 
AdamZ said:
However assuming the OP is a teacher in the student's school he needs to be very careful about what he says about the student lest he violate HIPPA or other Federal and State Privacy Acts. It might be wise however to approach the student's mother or father.
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...and that is exactly what the parental ambush in the principal's office, with the school LCSW and the teacher is all about. "Johnny needs a pill". Sigh.

And, (editorial note) 90% of the time Johnny needs some teacher with insight. but teacher has 33 other students, so it ain't happening....
 
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AdamZ said:
However assuming the OP is a teacher in the student's school he needs to be very careful about what he says about the student lest he violate HIPPA or other Federal and State Privacy Acts. It might be wise however to approach the student's mother or father.
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I don't see how HIPPA applies to the observations of a teacher in a public school, but FERPA might. OTOH, since the teacher appears to be working with the flight program on an official basis, then this would not be a release outside the school program, and maybe FERPA is not applicable, and failure to share information within the program might even lead to legal liability problems if the student or anyone else is injured as a result.
 
An internet search will reveal a number of discussions on this general topic.
If the person has not been diagnosed with AS or autism, it may not be a good idea to presume to diagnose. It is unnecessary and can be a disservice to all. As Doc Chien states, there are AS pilots so even if he has AS it is not necessarily an impediment.
AS people have some traits that help become a pilot. Obsession is another way of saying focus. That can mean tremendous attention to detail.
Does the student have an IEP? The IEP may provide some clues to optimal teaching techniques. Or, the Learning Center personnel may be able to suggest some tactics that work.
There is no doubt the CFI may have to adapt his teaching style, but he does not alter standards. In the end, if the CFI gives the best, most appropriate instruction he can, the student either accomplishes the tasks in the given conditions to the standard or he doesn't. It's pretty black and white, just like autistic people like.
 
bbchien said:
...and that is exactly what the parental ambush in the principal's office, with the school LCSW and the teacher is all about. "Johnny needs a pill". Sigh.

And, (editorial note) 90% of the time Johnny needs some teacher with insight. but teacher has 33 other students, so it ain't happening....
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Bruce, I was more thinking along the lines of telling the parents to be careful about pouring a bunch of money into flight training, if the kid for some reason already has a Dx or Rx that could've a lot of money down the tubes.

Ron Levy said:
I don't see how HIPPA applies to the observations of a teacher in a public school, but FERPA might. OTOH, since the teacher appears to be working with the flight program on an official basis, then this would not be a release outside the school program, and maybe FERPA is not applicable, and failure to share information within the program might even lead to legal liability problems if the student or anyone else is injured as a result.
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Both could theoretically apply, who knows if the kid has an IEP or medical information provided to the nurse. WhetHer its FERPA or HIPPA. Doesn't matter he just needs to be careful.
 
Leaving the privacy issues aside...

Unless the CFI has concerns with the students ability to safely fly the plane, I don't see Aspergers as an issue. I've known several people (even one of my better friends in college) with Aspergers. He is a very disciplined person with amazing attention to detail. If he was interested in flying, and trained, I would fly with him in a second. That's the important thing, though. If someone on the spectrum isn't interested in something, good luck getting them to do it. On the other hand, if it's one of their passions good luck keeping them from it.

Also, as it has been said here, DO NOT GET OR SEEK A DIAGNOSIS! My nephew has been diagnosed, and I worry about the doors that will close for him later. He LOVES helicopters and wants to join the army when he grows up (he's 10), but I doubt he'll be able to do that.
 
I don't recall reading anywhere that "slight obsessive tendencies and social awkwardness" were disqualifying conditions. On the contrary, that's a pretty good description of a considerable percentage of pilots and CFIs that I know.

On the other hand, before the parents lay out many $$$ for something that may never happen (and possibly break the boy's heart in the process if it winds up he can't be certified), I personally would have a talk with the boy's parents, explaining how diagnoses of certain conditions might prevent or complicate the issuance of a medical.

I would not discuss it with the CFI, AME, LCSW, PhD, or anyone else with letters after their name (nor do I believe that I'd be at liberty to do so, anyway). I would only discuss it with the boy's parents.

That's just me, though.

-Rich
 
AdamZ said:
Bruce, I was more thinking along the lines of telling the parents to be careful about pouring a bunch of money into flight training, if the kid for some reason already has a Dx or Rx that could've a lot of money down the tubes.
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Yup. But there is no way to do that for the CFI.

He (Teacher) needs to send the kid to an AME a month before his 16th and the parents, informed by the teacher, should have a conference with him just prior.
 
RJM62 said:
I don't recall reading anywhere that "slight obsessive tendencies and social awkwardness" were disqualifying conditions. On the contrary, that's a pretty good description of a considerable percentage of pilots and CFIs that I know.
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Sorta describes Lindbergh and the Wrights.
 
Ron Levy said:
If the CFI didn't have concerns, s/he wouldn't be asking the question.
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We don't have any info on how experienced a CFI we're talking about here. I've taught many people with many different learning styles, and it takes awhile for a teacher to learn how to adjust their teaching for different learning styles. I'm sure the experienced CFI's know this, but the FOI concepts in this regard take time to master.
 
That is the truth.

And I would want the OP to know that in the absence of a diagnosis, the FAA considers the ability to pass an operational examination (Checkride) as evidence that whatever the undiagnosed condition might be is not severe enough to bring the certification into question.

Some years ago I did have a student who was completely unpredictable. I was convinced he had undiagnosed ADD. I passed him off to another, then older CFI who worked with him for about ten hours, and failed. That candidate has never certified as of this day. He was successful in business. Whatever he had, we'll never know and it is not important.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
We don't have any info on how experienced a CFI we're talking about here. I've taught many people with many different learning styles, and it takes awhile for a teacher to learn how to adjust their teaching for different learning styles. I'm sure the experienced CFI's know this, but the FOI concepts in this regard take time to master.
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If this is an inexperienced CFI, then this teacher has the opportunity to help the CFI become a better teacher. The CFI clearly needs help on this -- don't withold it.
 
First off, I think we diagnose our children with all sorts of "psychologically" based learning disorders, and social adjusting disorders way way too much. I think this is being pushed both by the schools and the medical community for reasons that are partly economical, and partly misplaced concern for these children. Some of these kids truly do have problems that need medical and special education attention, but a lot of these kids are kids who in my generation were slow learners, or socially unadept. Not everyone can or should be an Einstein, and not everyone can or should be the personality of the year. Trying to fit everyone into a nice homogenized society works for milk but not people, and even with milk we have different types. Normal is not a spot in the bell curve, but a continuum. Oh and BTW my daughter has been diagnosed with Aspergers, as well as a half of dozen other "psychologically" based learning disorders. Now that I got that off my chest, I think the CFI first needs to decide if he is comfortable with training this student. He obviously has questions and I think getting a second opinion from another CFI, pilot, or even DPE is probably a good idea, but even before that I think the CFI should talk with the student to find out what the student thinks. He may find out that the issue is not learning disability, or awkward social skills, but disinterest in learning to fly. Whether he needs the parents permission to do this I do not know, but if he does I would not give them much warning, as this may be a case of parent pressure. If he truly wants to learn to fly and the second opinion agrees with the OP's concerns then a parent student teacher conference is warrented to discuss the issues prior to spending any more money on a what may be a fruitless journey.
 
I totally agree with Douglas.

I was in school late enough that everyone was getting diagnosed with ADD (including myself), but early enough that everyone wasn't yet being diagnosed with AS disorders. If I had been 10 years later, I'm sure I would have been.

I had a lot of trouble in school. I went to psychologists, hearing specialists, all kinds of experts trying to figure out why I was distant and bored all the time. I almost didn't graduate from high school. I believe that it's because I was bored out of my mind. They've dumbed school down to such an extent I'm not surprised that everyone has "attention issues."

Once things got challenging in college (I went after I got bored working as someone with a diploma) I turned on and got really interested. Now, I have a Ph.D and PPL :). Moral of the story is, I think, that schools are just as responsible for the situation in many cases. The problem is how do we diagnose them? And, teaching to the test (all many schools can do now) makes things even worse!
 
Also, hopefully Bruce can answer this, if someone is diagnosed as being "speech delayed" and possibly diagnosed as Aspergers is it possible for them to get a medical? My nephew, who loves helicopters, has been diagnosed with a few things but he's still only 10. What are his chances, do you think?
 
douglas393 said:
First off, I think we diagnose our children with all sorts of "psychologically" based learning disorders, and social adjusting disorders way way too much. I think this is being pushed both by the schools and the medical community for reasons that are partly economical, and partly misplaced concern for these children./QUOTE]

Not to generalize or be reactionary myself, but given the recent paranoia buildup by school administrators and educators, with kids being disciplined and threatened with expulsion for such things as possessing PICTURES of guns, or tossing an imaginary grenade and going "psssh" to indicate that it exploded, if I had kids in school now, I'd get them out of there as quickly as possible and make all sacrifices necessary to educate them at home. It's not just the weaponry thing. It's the training they're getting to be helpless victims, to not think for themselves, and to rely on others (read: the government) to solve all problems.

My stepdaughter had serious ADHD and behavioral problems but is now a capable and ambitious person ... she's a dental hygienist and is applying for medical school. Due to the behavioral problems, she spent a lot of time OUT of public schools. Same with my stepson, also highly successful in his field, and so BORED out of his mind that at 16 he literally refused to go back to school. Both kids aced the GED and were unstoppable after that. I'm sorry to say it, because I have a lot of respect for teachers, but I would indeed get my kids out of school NOW if I had young 'uns.

I'm a regular poster but am going unregistered for my kids' privacy.
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I have a friend who has some kind of undiagnosed personality disorder, currently training for his PPL. Awkward, short temper, distracted. Seems ok but if you spend more than 10 minutes with him, you'll notice something is not quite right.

Same guy is a terrible pilot of motor vehicles (all types), and some friends expressed concern that he was going to be a pilot.

I don't think its my (or the OP's) place to get involved in this situation. The FAA language reads something like 'obvious personality disorders' are disqualifying. I think the CFI and DPE will be spending enough time with my friend to discern if he has an obvious personality disorder.
 
hpux735 said:
Also, hopefully Bruce can answer this, if someone is diagnosed as being "speech delayed" and possibly diagnosed as Aspergers is it possible for them to get a medical? My nephew, who loves helicopters, has been diagnosed with a few things but he's still only 10. What are his chances, do you think?
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Not an expert but I don't think it is a huge issue.
 
OP here. As always, the posters on this board have a wide spectrum of input and suggestions. Thanks to all who took the time to read and respond. It sounds like I should let the CFIs and DPEs be the final gatekeepers, and that they are well trained to do so. A teacher in this position could work with the CFI if the CFI wanted his help. It just may take such a student more than the 40-hour FAA minimum to get his PPL.

I suppose the next intermediate step would come when the student visits the AME for his student pilot certificate.

I would still be interested to hear if any CFIs have had students that showed some of these tendencies, and how you worked with them, and to what end. Did they keep at it but just take longer? Did you hand them off to another CFI? Or did they "wash out?"

BTW, in researching this thread, I have discovered that what I always thought to be HIPPA is actually a misspelling of the acronym HIPAA, wihch stands for the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act.
 
I gave instrument instruction to one pilot who shows slight tendencies in the autism spectrum range. He did alright. (I have considerable, intensive experience with a person with autism and have done considerable reading of lay literature on it so feel I have some appreciation for some of it's manifestations.) I didn't notice that he was any more or less capable than his peers. On the other hand, maybe I subconsciously related to him differently because of my experience teaching the person I referred to. Each case is different. Autism, and even AS, is a pretty broad term.
 
Googling some stuff and it appears the term "Asperger" is being dropped as a diagnosis as of about 2 months ago. Now that doesn't change anyone's personality, but the term is no longer or soon will be no longer medically significant.

It's all going to depend on the individual anyway. For the same diagnosis, the outcome for someone of high intelligence vs low intelligence can be completely different. Which might be part of the reason the term is being dropped.

http://www.herald-dispatch.com/news...pergers-dropped-from-revised-diagnosis-manual
 
And I missed reading this until now from my earlier googling, but there is also an article on autism spectrum in the Federal Air Surgeon's Medical Bulletin, volume 2011-2. The end conclusion relevant to the question posed here is that "Formal FAA guidelines do not exist for autism spectrum disorders" which includes Asperger. Decisions on medicals are made based on individual evaluation by FAA consultants and doctors.

The concern is that some people on the spectrum may have cognitive, communications or social compliance behaviors that are incompatible with safely operating an airplane. But, because the Autism community has cast the net so wide, a mere diagnosis on the spectrum is not necessarily disqualifying.

Amazing what you learn when you can't sleep and have a little curiosity in the middle of the night.
 
Unregistered said:
It sounds like I should let the CFIs and DPEs be the final gatekeepers, and that they are well trained to do so. A teacher in this position could work with the CFI if the CFI wanted his help. It just may take such a student more than the 40-hour FAA minimum to get his PPL.
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I think that is a very good summary. If the instructor asks for your help, please help him/her. It really is in everyone's best interest.
 
As a parent, whose son is often "diagnosed" by those unqualified to do so, I can only say stop. You are being more hurtful than helpful. The child has likely been taken to many professionals throughout his life, because of comments from strangers like you and the doctors have found not enough indicators to diagnose the child as having aspergers. He likely has a high IQ. Giftedness often has "ticks" to it, that look like ocd, ADHD, and even aspergers, but aren't. My son's doctor is one of the top autism docs in the world and my child is NOT on the spectrum. He's just extremely intelligent.
 
If he gets a 3rd class medical he is good to go (and if the CFI is concerned he can quit the student and have him find someone else to train him)...the opinions of a non-pilot high school teacher are anecdotal at best...
 
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Unregistered;1103013... The CFI asks me privately about one of the students said:
I am not trained in this area, so this is a “lay” observation[/B]. The student has never been diagnosed with any kind of ADD, Autism, or Asperger syndrome, and is not on any medications. He functions OK with schoolwork, with help from the school's learning support center.....
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More damage has been done to perfectly fine young men by "lay" people and their GD unqualified opinions.

Pass or fail the student pilot based on his performance, not on whether or not you'd feel comfortable with them at your dinner table. Gawky, self-conscious kids sometimes grow up to be amazing adults. And sometimes they suffer life long scars from the labels placed on them by well meaning adults!
 
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