Flight Review

[tonycondon]

I worry that my flight reviews are too textbook, boring, etc. I try to personalize them to the student but it seems that often the student just wants to get it over with, which is sad really. A couple I've had have been really succesful. notable was a CFI friend who had lost spin proficiency, with some good ground and then several multi turn spins in flight he had it back, and I hope that this made him much more comfortable with his students. Then of course there was Jesse last week. Showing him spins and being able to observe the way he handled truly challenging wind conditions left me no doubt in signing him off.

Heres what Im wondering...

CFIs: What do you include in flight reviews that makes you feel like you are really doing a great job of testing the student, and they feel good about it to?

Pilots: What have CFIs had you do on flight reviews that really made you appreciate the training opportunity?

 

[PHXAvi8tor]

As a new CFI -- who still is really sharp on all the regs and maneuvers -- the last four or five flight reviews have been a real eye-opener.

While most of the pilots can look up the Part 91 regs just fine, their flying skills leave much to be desired.

I've found that I must go beyond just the basic "stall recognition and recovery" routine, and present real-life scenarios. So, I mix it up and, from 4000 AGL or so, have them stall the plane while on base-to-final (cross-controlled stall) and note that they will lose 400 feet (their entire altitude above ground!!!) before they can recover.

Then, it's on to power-on stalls, and power-off stalls.

Then, it's time for some basic weather work, cross-country flight planning. ALL of that really is about good ADM, rather than on the primal nuts-and-bolts of flight planning: I want them to get comfortable with making good decisions about the data they are using to plan their flights.

I dunno. Other than that, it's highly customized. A lot of my flight-review clients seem to still have lots of problems with radio procedures in controlled airspace -- particularly Class Charlie and Bravo. So, I always work them through that, too.

Finally, it amazes me how shaky their landings are! It scares the heck out of me. Of course, that goes back to stall recognition, but we wind up doing a ton of touch-and-goes, short- and soft-fields and go-arounds.

Hope I'm not too hard on 'em.

 

[tonycondon]

Hope I'm not too hard on 'em.

I hope you are, for their sake.

Sounds like you and I aren't far off. Nice to review my flight review procedures and compare with other CFI's occasionally. Keep em coming guys!

 

[KennyFlys]

I don't see how any CFI can be light on a review. You're putting your name and ticket on the line.

As far as flight planning, I'd want to know how well they obtain wx data and from where, including what was pertinent to the flight ahead with appropriate areas and altitudes. I see many go for the short cuts. Nothing beats a live briefer.

You mentioned stalls and spins. Awareness is obviously important and I can't think of a better way to begin that than by starting with slow flight manuevering skills. Reviewing areas where stalls and subsequent spins are more likely seem to be often overlooked.

 

[tonycondon]

I don't see how any CFI can be light on a review. You're putting your name and ticket on the line.

As far as flight planning, I'd want to know how well they obtain wx data and from where, including what was pertinent to the flight ahead with appropriate areas and altitudes. I see many go for the short cuts. Nothing beats a live briefer.

You mentioned stalls and spins. Awareness is obviously important and I can't think of a better way to begin that than by starting with slow flight manuevering skills. Reviewing areas where stalls and subsequent spins are more likely seem to be often overlooked.

ok so you just went through basically a very hefty flight review recently. what did your instructor do with you that made you say "boy im glad we did that" or "what a great demo" of course im doing slow flight/stalls etc. im trying to go the extra mile here though.

 

[poadeleted20]

The big things I hit on the ground side are the Part 61 legal mandatories, airspace (especially the ADIZ around here), and aircraft systems knowledge. In flight, I try to make it an evaluation of the skills necessary for the flying they do, and a few "unusual occurrences" of the sort likely to hit them in that flying. For the VFR weekend flyer, that's probably some XC planning, visual navigation, stall avoidance, landings, and engine failure. For an IFR business flyer, it's going to look more like an IPC, including flight planning/weather, circling to land, landings from DH/MDA, and emergencies like autopilot and primary instrument system failures.

In the end, I'm not all that concerned about whether the pilot thinks it's fun, but rather that the pilot feels I've exercised all the skills s/he uses routinely or can be expected to be called upon by circumstances to use, as I think that is the real intent of the flight review.

 

[tonycondon]

roger that Ron. doesnt sound like im doing as bad as i worried. keep it going though, good to hear what others are including.

 

[SkyHog]

Maybe its just me, but I would prefer an easy BFR to a tough one, primarily because every CFI I've flown with has a different opinion on how things should be done.

I'd hate to not be passed on a BFR because the CFI didn't like me slipping with flaps, or because I don't use 2 fingers to control the yoke.

 

[KennyFlys]

ok so you just went through basically a very hefty flight review recently. what did your instructor do with you that made you say "boy im glad we did that" or "what a great demo" of course im doing slow flight/stalls etc. im trying to go the extra mile here though.

The DE during my Comm ride hit me with a new one... he wanted to see stalls during a turn. I hadn't done one before but it made sense. When do stalls and subsequent spins tend to happen during approach to landing? In a turn, often in a slip or skid.

Strangely enough, when I started spin training what were some of the maneuvers he had me do? Stalls in a coordinated turn, a skidding turn and slipping turn... then, it was a stall into a spin.

I have the added benefit of seeing what can happen when going to a fully developed spin. Most make it to the stall, fail to recover and panic. So... although I didn't quite respond with, "Oh yeah!" at the time the DE had me do it, it sure sank in later when I was able to connect the pieces.

 

[Don Jones]

Ditto on what everyone else has said, sounds like we are all on the same page. I also do as Ron suggested, and taylor it to the type of flying he/she has been doing. I really have begun to work them hard on the landings, specifically x-wind landings. For as windy as it is out here I have seen some of the worst performance on x-wind stuff. I love x-wind work(had a pre-solo student in a 12 kt direct x-wind the other day, made him sweat, but after 3 or 4 he was doing great) With the loss of control on landing accident rates what they are we should all spend a lot of time here. My 2 cents

 

[Henning]

Hope I'm not too hard on 'em.

Might as well be. Hope you're teaching more than just landings and basic airwork though.

 

[Henning]

For an IFR business flyer, it's going to look more like an IPC.

So, do you sign off the FR & ICC for the same price? (Just did my IPC/ICC today, now fully current for everything...)

 

[tonycondon]

The DE during my Comm ride hit me with a new one... he wanted to see stalls during a turn. I hadn't done one before but it made sense. When do stalls and subsequent spins tend to happen during approach to landing? In a turn, often in a slip or skid.

Funny thing about stalling turns is a lot of people never see them. And they're in the PTS. maybe their instructors can't read. glad you got to do them. I like stalling power on turns to the right. great way to drop a wing off to the left.

 

[SCCutler]

Funny thing about stalling turns is a lot of people never see them. And they're in the PTS. maybe their instructors can't read. glad you got to do them. I like stalling power on turns to the right. great way to drop a wing off to the left.

First time I was asked to perform a stall in a turn was on my PP checkride (!); I was not expecting *that* (nor had my very-apologetic instructor), but I performed the maneuver to the DPE's satisfaction and we moved on.

===

As for Flight Reviews, I always want a a tough one (and as I understand it, there's no such thing as "failing" unless you are genuinely unsafe to fly an airplane), as it is the challenges that expand our skills, right?

One flight review (or it may have been just an instrument refresher, the difference mattering not) I appreciated included a lot of purposeful distractions from the instructor in the midst of high-workload operations. At first, I thought he was just being chatty and sort-of ADD, but he later commented about his extra distractions (I did not kill us).

Main thing is, I am paying for the instructor's time and review, ought to come away from it with something more than "recurrent ink."

 

[Kaye]

I like stalling power on turns to the right. great way to drop a wing off to the left.

You are evil.....I hate power on stalls, so they're always on my to-do list in a flight review. But I don't recall a power on stall in a turn.....maybe I have as I can't believe my CFI would miss that opportunity for torture!!

 

[Bill M.]

You are evil.....I hate power on stalls, so they're always on my to-do list in a flight review. But I don't recall a power on stall in a turn.....maybe I have as I can't believe my CFI would miss that opportunity for torture!!

Have your CFI teach you a falling leaf maneuver. It's a great skill and confidence builder. I do them alot on FRs.

 

[poadeleted20]

So, do you sign off the FR & ICC for the same price?

Since I don't use a flat rate, it doesn't matter -- if they want a FR and an IPC (you have been out of the country a long time!), they get charged for however many hours/days it takes to reach the point I'm happy to sign both endorsements. If that's only an hour of flying (most unlikely), that's the charge. If it takes three days, that's the charge. No guarantees, no promises, just training to proficiency.

 

[poadeleted20]

You are evil.....I hate power on stalls, so they're always on my to-do list in a flight review. But I don't recall a power on stall in a turn.....maybe I have as I can't believe my CFI would miss that opportunity for torture!!

Turns with up to 20 degrees bank are (and have always been) part of the Power-On Stall task in even the Private Pilot-Airplane PTS -- see Area VIII, Task C, Element 5 [emphasis added]: "Maintains a specified heading, ±10°, in straight flight; maintains a specified angle of bank not to exceed 20°, ±10°, in turning flight, while inducing the stall."

 

[RotaryWingBob]

It's funny that you bring that subject up, Tony, because I did my monthly dose of recurrent training yesterday.

I somehow how ended up as Safety Officer for the partnerships which own our helicopters, and had the responsibility for putting together our recurrent training program. We did this not because our insurance requires it, but because we wanted to be safer.

I got input from all sorts of people: our resident CFI, a local DPE, the head of training for a large helicopter manufacturer. As a result of that, we put together a program that requires monthly training in emergency procedures (mostly enhanced autorotations), plus whatever else the CFI wants to do -- slope landings, engine failures in a hover (I refuse to use the hovering auto term), hover work, whatever. Beyond that, we require more extensive training every six months which generally includes a ground school followed by flight training that goes beyond anything in the PTS for either PP or CP. This includes things like autos from an OGE hover, hydraulics failures, tail rotor failures, recovery from vortex ring state, etc.

Since the six month sessions are more rigorous than anything in the PTS, we use them as the guts of a BFR signoff.

One last thought. I fail to understand the logic that getting a rating in any kind of aircraft resets the BFR clock. Why, for example, if I get a PP rating in hot air balloons, should that make me good to go in helicopters and fixed wing for another two years?

 

[tonycondon]

excellent Bob. Yes kaye, i guess I am evil. at Gastons we shall do power on turning stalls. they are not that bad I do like power on turning to the right, because it is darned hard to keep it coordinated with left turning tendencies plus extra right rudder due to the turn at low speed. i dont think ive ever had a student not drop the left wing in one. "falling leaf" or whatever you want to call it is a good exercise too

 

[Henning]

Since I don't use a flat rate, it doesn't matter -- if they want a FR and an IPC (you have been out of the country a long time!), they get charged for however many hours/days it takes to reach the point I'm happy to sign both endorsements. If that's only an hour of flying (most unlikely), that's the charge. If it takes three days, that's the charge. No guarantees, no promises, just training to proficiency.

Yeah, my logbook preprint endorsement still says ICC. I did an hour and a half oral, 1.2 in the sim. Didin't do too bad considering I've gotten about 5 hrs hand flying in IMC in the last 10 years.

 

[gismo]

Maybe its just me, but I would prefer an easy BFR to a tough one, primarily because every CFI I've flown with has a different opinion on how things should be done.

I'd hate to not be passed on a BFR because the CFI didn't like me slipping with flaps, or because I don't use 2 fingers to control the yoke.

A good CFI won't insist that you do things exactly the way he/she does. Ideally they would suggest alternative methods (along with the reason for their particular preferences) and let you chose after giving their way a try. And I don't see this issue as related to whether a BFR is "easy" or "hard", but rather whether it is useful or not. I prefer "hard" meaning that the CFI tries to push me out of my comfort zone instead of "easy" where I just show them I can fly the plane without killing myself.

In answer to Tony's OP, one thing I like to see on a BFR is an opportunity to try something new and/or unusual that might have some practical value. Things like flying an ILS to the runway (emergency zero zero approach), a (simulated) dual engine failure in a twin, an "engine on fire" descent and landing, the impossible turn demo, or the already mentioned "real world" stall spin in the pattern or on a high DA takeoff. These kinds of maneuvers not only provide the opportunity for some unique learning, but IMO they also allow the CFI a better opportunity to judge how the pilot deals with the unexpected/unusual situation.

 

[gismo]

One last thought. I fail to understand the logic that getting a rating in any kind of aircraft resets the BFR clock. Why, for example, if I get a PP rating in hot air balloons, should that make me good to go in helicopters and fixed wing for another two years?

AFaIK, the same "loophole" allows you to take your BFR in a balloon and then be good to fly a pressurized twin assuming you're rated in both.

 

[Everskyward]

One last thought. I fail to understand the logic that getting a rating in any kind of aircraft resets the BFR clock. Why, for example, if I get a PP rating in hot air balloons, should that make me good to go in helicopters and fixed wing for another two years?

I see this as a good thing. The FAA is still letting you use your own judgement rather than trying to micromanage. I'm not sure how long that will last, though.

 

[gismo]

Didin't do too bad considering I've gotten about 5 hrs hand flying in IMC in the last 10 years.

It's like falling off a bicycle.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

One last thought. I fail to understand the logic that getting a rating in any kind of aircraft resets the BFR clock. Why, for example, if I get a PP rating in hot air balloons, should that make me good to go in helicopters and fixed wing for another two years?

Well, hopefully you're at least up to date on the regs...

The other thing is, in two years you can get your BFR in that balloon too, at which point you'll be good to fly any other category and class for two more years.

 

[poadeleted20]

Yeah, my logbook preprint endorsement still says ICC. I did an hour and a half oral, 1.2 in the sim. Didin't do too bad considering I've gotten about 5 hrs hand flying in IMC in the last 10 years.

What kind of sim? Not many are certified for doing a circle-to-land maneuver, and that's a required element on an IPC.

 

[gismo]

What kind of sim? Not many are certified for doing a circle-to-land maneuver, and that's a required element on an IPC.

I just got an IPC at Simcom and they are using FTDs (no motion) with a projected wrap-around video display. We did a few CTL procedures and it was tougher than the real thing but a reasonably accurate facsimile.