Flight review - what should I ask?

[Matthew]

I have a flight review coming up in the next week or so. I've not had one before because I've done Wings levels or other things.

I've talked a little to a CFI about getting it scheduled, and was told to bring questions or topics for discussion for the ground portion.

What is something that a VFR PP guy like me should ask? I'm trying to be thourough and realize there is a lot I don't know, but I also don't know what I don't know.

Any comments from CFIs out there on what a normal PP should be up-to-date on? What most PPs don't or should know? I don't want to walk in and say, "I couldn't think of any questions. What do you have?"

Thanks,
Matt

 

[gkainz]

http://www.faa.gov/pilots/training/media/flight_review.pdf

 

[SkyHog]

I disqualify CFIs on the following basis:

1) Do you have a problem foward slipping a C172 with full flaps?

2) Do you believe in flying the step?

3) When do you plan on moving to the airlines (the only correct answer is "I don't")?

4) Is it ever safe to run the MP higher than RPMs? What about vice versa?

Depending on the answers, I will hire the guy. #1 and #2 are most important, as this shows the degrading skill of believing others without verifying information. These questions will cause me to walk away from an instructor without any further cause.

#3 Shows dedication, and is something I can overlook if he's willing to actually teach me something while I have him hired.

#4 Shows attention to detail. If they're not willing to actually read the PoH for the planes they fly, they're likely to skimp elsewhere, and while I may hire them, I will be very untrusting.

After that, we enter conversation mode to determine whether I'll hire them.

 

[tonycondon]

you could probably start by asking if you could log the flight review time as PIC and go from there

 

[Matthew]

Greg - thanks, that's pretty much what I was needing. I want to be able to say "I think I need some extra review on item A,B,C" But I needed to compare what I know with what I SHOULD know so that I can have an intelligent set of questions to start with.

Nick - I guess I wasn't very clear. I already have a CFI and we're just setting up a time to meet. I want to make sure I get my money's worth on this review and don't want to just get through it. I was trying to get some ideas for discussion items. I've been pretty good at getting some good CFIs over the years, and I've also been pretty good at noticing things about some CFIs that I didn't like. You're right - students, and we are all students, should always do their homework when selecting a CFI.

 

[Everskyward]

3) When do you plan on moving to the airlines (the only correct answer is "I don't")?

I think you might miss out on a lot of fine instructors if you use this criteria.

 

[SkyHog]

I think you might miss out on a lot of fine instructors if you use this criteria.

Its not a disqualifying question, its just a "how dedicated is this instructor" kind of question. One to give me a better idea of whether to hire the instructor or not.

 

[SkyHog]

Nick - I guess I wasn't very clear. I already have a CFI and we're just setting up a time to meet. I want to make sure I get my money's worth on this review and don't want to just get through it. I was trying to get some ideas for discussion items. I've been pretty good at getting some good CFIs over the years, and I've also been pretty good at noticing things about some CFIs that I didn't like. You're right - students, and we are all students, should always do their homework when selecting a CFI.

Oh, my bad, I thought you were looking to hire a CFI.

 

[Everskyward]

Its not a disqualifying question, its just a "how dedicated is this instructor" kind of question. One to give me a better idea of whether to hire the instructor or not.

OK, but you wrote it as a disqualifying question.

(the only correct answer is "I don't")

 

[SkyHog]

OK, but you wrote it as a disqualifying question.

Its the only correct answer, as in, any other answer does not gain points

 

[poadeleted20]

As Greg hinted in posting the link to that flight review guide, the question is not what you should be asking the instructor, but what the instructor should be asking you. I would expect a bit more from the instructor than "bring questions or topics for discussion for the ground portion." Since s/he isn't doing that, you might review that guide yourself, answer the questions which should have been asked, and then call the instructor with those answers. If that doesn't generate more discussion, you might consider finding a different instructor to obtain a really effective flight review rather than a square-filling exercise.

 

[Matthew]

As Greg hinted in posting the link to that flight review guide, the question is not what you should be asking the instructor, but what the instructor should be asking you. I would expect a bit more from the instructor than "bring questions or topics for discussion for the ground portion." Since s/he isn't doing that, you might review that guide yourself, answer the questions which should have been asked, and then call the instructor with those answers. If that doesn't generate more discussion, you might consider finding a different instructor to obtain a really effective flight review rather than a square-filling exercise.

I'm not trying to ding the instructor, I expect to get the full treatment. I was asked in the spirit of "Since we'll be covering all these items at your review - if there is anything else you'd like to cover, just bring along a list." I was trying to find out what you CFIs normally find that a PP should also know, or ifr there are any other gems you have to share that maybe I could bring up for my, and my CFI's, benefit.

 

[OtisAir]

Is there such an animal as a Group BFR (for the ground portion)? I was thinking, if some of the Gaston's folks are getting close on their BFR date, perhaps there could be a group session, then individual flights over the event to complete the BFR.

I surely wish I was going but hope to meet ya'll next month at OSH.

 

[poadeleted20]

Is there such an animal as a Group BFR (for the ground portion)?

Absolutely.

I was thinking, if some of the Gaston's folks are getting close on their BFR date, perhaps there could be a group session, then individual flights over the event to complete the BFR.

That could indeed be done.

 

[EdFred]

Oooh oooh. I'l conduct the 61.51 portion.

 

[brcase]

Is there such an animal as a Group BFR (for the ground portion)? I was thinking, if some of the Gaston's folks are getting close on their BFR date, perhaps there could be a group session, then individual flights over the event to complete the BFR.

I surely wish I was going but hope to meet ya'll next month at OSH.

Sure is, I will be giving at least 3 maybe 4 Flight Reviews this coming Saturday. This works well for the glider pilots here as we only have to arrange for the two place glider, towplane, tow pilot and ground support once, Plus the pilots take turns helping stage the glider.

For the ground portion I have a written quiz I hand out and have the pilots answer. The quizes may or may not be identical and the questions are often written in such a way that each pilots answer may be different. For example What will the CG location be for our flight today?

Once the quiz portion is done, we discuss the answers. As a group the ground portion is usually significantly longer than just the required hour. But we also discuss our operations and any safty issues we may observed/encountered over the past year (or two).

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[Cap'n Jack]

I disqualify CFIs on the following basis:

<SNIP>
2) Do you believe in flying the step?

<SNIP>

What does "Flying the step" mean?

I am assuming it's not doing a fast seaplane taxi where the floats are planing- thanks much!

 

[poadeleted20]

What does "Flying the step" mean?

I am assuming it's not doing a fast seaplane taxi where the floats are planing- thanks much!

It's an old wives tale based on the mistaken idea that you can do with an airplane something much like getting a water-borne hull "on the step" as you described, in which case the hull will go faster on the same power than when not "on the step." It suggests that by climbing above cruise altitude and then diving down to it, you can achieve a higher cruise speed at the same power. Any aero textbook will disavow any apocryphal stories about this. The misconeption is based on the fact that you can get to stable cruise speed faster this way than by leveling off, reducing to cruise power, and waiting for the speed to stabilize. However, whichever way you do it, if you use the same power setting, eventually you'll stabilize at the same speed.

 

[taters]

I have a flight review coming up in the next week or so. I've not had one before because I've done Wings levels or other things.

I've talked a little to a CFI about getting it scheduled, and was told to bring questions or topics for discussion for the ground portion.

What is something that a VFR PP guy like me should ask? I'm trying to be thourough and realize there is a lot I don't know, but I also don't know what I don't know.

Any comments from CFIs out there on what a normal PP should be up-to-date on? What most PPs don't or should know? I don't want to walk in and say, "I couldn't think of any questions. What do you have?"

Thanks,
Matt

I would take inventory of the flying that you have done since your PPL ride and and make a list of any situation or flight that presented anything you were unsure of...Im sure there has to be something? I would also be sure and ask your CFI about new tools for flight planning a/c performance and especially weather.

Have a good Flight Review
-Clay/CFI

 

[gismo]

It's an old wives tale based on the mistaken idea that you can do with an airplane something much like getting a water-borne hull "on the step" as you described, in which case the hull will go faster on the same power than when not "on the step." It suggests that by climbing above cruise altitude and then diving down to it, you can achieve a higher cruise speed at the same power. Any aero textbook will disavow any apocryphal stories about this. The misconeption is based on the fact that you can get to stable cruise speed faster this way than by leveling off, reducing to cruise power, and waiting for the speed to stabilize. However, whichever way you do it, if you use the same power setting, eventually you'll stabilize at the same speed.

Actually there is a "step" with most any airplane, it just occurs at a speed way below the speed most of us cruise at. One might think it possible that for the very early airplane designs which cruised pretty slow given their lack of horsepower, the concept of "getting on the step" was actually able to produce a higher cruise speed. The speed I'm talking about is max endurance speed, aka minimum power speed, aka the speed "behind the power curve". I do see one problem with this though, if an airplane lacked sufficient power to exceed max endurance speed in level flight I don't think it could climb out of ground effect.

 

[poadeleted20]

Actually there is a "step" with most any airplane, it just occurs at a speed way below the speed most of us cruise at. One might think it possible that for the very early airplane designs which cruised pretty slow given their lack of horsepower, the concept of "getting on the step" was actually able to produce a higher cruise speed. The speed I'm talking about is max endurance speed, aka minimum power speed, aka the speed "behind the power curve". I do see one problem with this though, if an airplane lacked sufficient power to exceed max endurance speed in level flight I don't think it could climb out of ground effect.

Lance is discussing the bottom of the drag curve, which usually occurs somewhere below best glide speed. You can experiment with this yourself by slowing the airplane to about 1.3 Vs, and then slowing it further, 3-5 knots at a time, noting how much power it takes to maintain altitude. At some point, you'll find you have to increase power as you slow to avoid sinking. At that point, you're "behind the power curve." However, this is so far below cruise speed for anything you're likely to be flying today that it's not relevent to the OWT other than as a possible historical source for its existence.

 

[brcase]

The idea of flying on “Step” comes right from the charts in the Theory of Wing Sections book. Many Laminar flow airfoils show what is called a Drag Bucket. This means at a fairly narrow range of Coefficients of lift, the Drag is greatly reduced. The idea is that at a slower speed that causes the wing to fly at a C/L outside of the drag bucket you may not have enough horsepower to overcome the drag required to get into the drag bucket. Once in the Bucket you may have enough horsepower to remain there, due to the reduced drag. Thus the idea of climbing a bit higher than your desired altitude and diving back down to get to your cruising speed.

It probably wouldn't to difficult to design an airplane that would fly on Step, But I think it would take a pretty specific set of conditions for it to work, such as a wing designed for a specific weight and horsepower. It may accidently occasionally work in some lower powered aircraft with laminar airfoils when at a specific weight and power setting.



Brian

 

[JeffDG]

3) When do you plan on moving to the airlines (the only correct answer is "I don't")?

I'd be slightly more lenient...if they have a date planned, then they've half-checked-out of the CFI gig and that's not good...I would give near full credit for "I don't know." meaning they might do it someday, but aren't actively obsessing about it.

 

[BillTIZ]

As Greg hinted in posting the link to that flight review guide, the question is not what you should be asking the instructor, but what the instructor should be asking you. I would expect a bit more from the instructor than "bring questions or topics for discussion for the ground portion." Since s/he isn't doing that, you might review that guide yourself, answer the questions which should have been asked, and then call the instructor with those answers. If that doesn't generate more discussion, you might consider finding a different instructor to obtain a really effective flight review rather than a square-filling exercise.

When the glider pilots ask for a flight review, I always ask them is there any maneuvers or experiences that has spooked them in the last few years? When was the last time they did spin entries and recoveries? (yes I know.. not required for PTS).

For the ground portion, I make sure to cover items outlined in the guide, but I also make sure based on the type of flying they are doing they know the local airspace restrictions, how to get weather and NOTAMS, cross country considerations, personal evaluations, IMSAFE.

For the flight portion, you can get through a check ride scenario in the required 3 flights, but I'll concentrate on areas they have identified or I see in their first flight. Stalls and spin entries are always good, especially the turning (cross countrolled) stall spin entry, very deceptive at first then watch the nose swing.

 

[Matthew]

When the glider pilots ask for a flight review, I always ask them is there any maneuvers or experiences that has spooked them in the last few years? When was the last time they did spin entries and recoveries? (yes I know.. not required for PTS).

For the ground portion, I make sure to cover items outlined in the guide, but I also make sure based on the type of flying they are doing they know the local airspace restrictions, how to get weather and NOTAMS, cross country considerations, personal evaluations, IMSAFE.

For the flight portion, you can get through a check ride scenario in the required 3 flights, but I'll concentrate on areas they have identified or I see in their first flight. Stalls and spin entries are always good, especially the turning (cross countrolled) stall spin entry, very deceptive at first then watch the nose swing.

Thanks for the info - I've decided to ask for extra attention on emergency procedures and performance takeoffs/landings.

edit: Got the ground review finished today, but 800' ceilings pushed the flight portion out a couple days. We talked about x-winds, and I mentioned that I haven't yet been in a situation where I felt better about using less than full flaps. We talked about that for a little while then I was told to expect at least one no-flap landing when we fly.

 

[baxter1000]

I am totally lost on the idea that the student must bring up topics for discussion. It is the professional instructor to guide the pilot through the review. If you talk about flying and do some flying, you have covered the requirements for the flight review.

 

[baxter1000]

I disqualify CFIs on the following basis:

1) Do you have a problem foward slipping a C172 with full flaps?

2) Do you believe in flying the step?

3) When do you plan on moving to the airlines (the only correct answer is "I don't")?

4) Is it ever safe to run the MP higher than RPMs? What about vice versa?

Depending on the answers, I will hire the guy. #1 and #2 are most important, as this shows the degrading skill of believing others without verifying information. These questions will cause me to walk away from an instructor without any further cause.

#3 Shows dedication, and is something I can overlook if he's willing to actually teach me something while I have him hired.

#4 Shows attention to detail. If they're not willing to actually read the PoH for the planes they fly, they're likely to skimp elsewhere, and while I may hire them, I will be very untrusting.

After that, we enter conversation mode to determine whether I'll hire them.

You make a point about #1 and #2, but you don't specify how you judge the instructor. So if you instructor believes that doing a forward slip is dangerous, but you like living on the edge of death, you will not hire this instructor? If you don't like flying the "step", which I don't even know what you are talking about, you don't hire the instructor?

What about the turbo arrow, which has a higher MP than the propeller. Did you think that all aircraft are all the same?

Did you think that the instructors think that your ego is so big that you probably are a danger to yourself and others around you?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

You make a point about #1 and #2, but you don't specify how you judge the instructor. So if you instructor believes that doing a forward slip is dangerous, but you like living on the edge of death, you will not hire this instructor? If you don't like flying the "step", which I don't even know what you are talking about, you don't hire the instructor?

Baxter,

Not Nick, but here's what he's saying. There is nothing wrong with slipping a 172 with full flaps (and there's nothing about doing a forward slip that is anything like "living on the edge of death." What are you talking about?)

"The Step" is a myth that's explained earlier in this thread. An instructor who believes in the step has a fundamental misunderstanding of energy management.

What about the turbo arrow, which has a higher MP than the propeller. Did you think that all aircraft are all the same?

No, he's testing them on another OWT, that MP higher than 100's of RPM's is bad for the airplane. Power settings are in the POH.

 

[Matthew]

I am totally lost on the idea that the student must bring up topics for discussion. It is the professional instructor to guide the pilot through the review. If you talk about flying and do some flying, you have covered the requirements for the flight review.

OP here: Yeah, that's what a flight review is.

To me, though it's also a time where I have a CFI at my disposal so I can say "Hey, there's something extra I'd like to spend some time with, or a particular maneuver that I'd like to work on, ..." It's the opportunity to do something extra than just what's required.

 

[bbchien]

Go to www.faa.gov and print AC 61-98A. That's what he should be using.

 

[SkyHog]

Hey, a hit and run post. I love these:

You make a point about #1 and #2, but you don't specify how you judge the instructor. So if you instructor believes that doing a forward slip is dangerous, but you like living on the edge of death, you will not hire this instructor? If you don't like flying the "step", which I don't even know what you are talking about, you don't hire the instructor?

If you read the thread before jumping on this, you'd see what "flying the step" is. This alone tells me that you're not very knowledgable about which you are arguing. Either way, slips are not living on the edge of death, and if you believe so, you are a danger to more than yourself in the air.

What about the turbo arrow, which has a higher MP than the propeller. Did you think that all aircraft are all the same?

That is exactly my point. The answer lies in the POH, not in some old wives tale where the blue knob must always be ahead of the black knob (or whatever the wives tale says). In your attempt to smear me, you failed to actually read what I wrote.

Did you think that the instructors think that your ego is so big that you probably are a danger to yourself and others around you?

I don't care what the instructors think. I want to pay money to an instructor that will actually teach me things the right way, not "the way they were told." I have no ego here, except that I've had enough instructors try to kill me to realize that just because a pilot holds an instructor cert does not mean they are a qualified instructor.

There are really good CFIs out there, and there are really bad CFIs out there - just like every other form of aviation. I use my questionnaire to determine which one I'm about to hire.

 

[gismo]

I don't care what the instructors think. I want to pay money to an instructor that will actually teach me things the right way, not "the way they were told." I have no ego here, except that I've had enough instructors try to kill me to realize that just because a pilot holds an instructor cert does not mean they are a qualified instructor.

There are really good CFIs out there, and there are really bad CFIs out there - just like every other form of aviation. I use my questionnaire to determine which one I'm about to hire.

One comment WRT to your CFI quals, there are many airline pilots who maintain their CFI currency and I would expect that a fair portion of those are very desirable instructors since they obviously aren't just building time at your expense plus their air carrier experience and training probably taught them a useful thing or two about GA flying. IOW there's probably more than one "right" answer to your question about this.

 

[SkyHog]

One comment WRT to your CFI quals, there are many airline pilots who maintain their CFI currency and I would expect that a fair portion of those are very desirable instructors since they obviously aren't just building time at your expense plus their air carrier experience and training probably taught them a useful thing or two about GA flying. IOW there's probably more than one "right" answer to your question about this.

You are correct. And I don't use that as an immediately disqualifying question, but rather something to consider. I have found that the best instructors are the ones that are doing it because they want to be instructors, not because they're building time to be "real" pilots or whatever they think.

Airline pilots that continue instructing is a good thing, because they still care (and certainly aren't doing it for the money).

 

[gismo]

and certainly aren't doing it for the money.

These days I wouldn't be so sure about that!

 

[taters]

Hey, a hit and run post. I love these:



If you read the thread before jumping on this, you'd see what "flying the step" is. This alone tells me that you're not very knowledgable about which you are arguing. Either way, slips are not living on the edge of death, and if you believe so, you are a danger to more than yourself in the air.


That is exactly my point. The answer lies in the POH, not in some old wives tale where the blue knob must always be ahead of the black knob (or whatever the wives tale says). In your attempt to smear me, you failed to actually read what I wrote.



I don't care what the instructors think. I want to pay money to an instructor that will actually teach me things the right way, not "the way they were told." I have no ego here, except that I've had enough instructors try to kill me to realize that just because a pilot holds an instructor cert does not mean they are a qualified instructor.

There are really good CFIs out there, and there are really bad CFIs out there - just like every other form of aviation. I use my questionnaire to determine which one I'm about to hire.

So what about a CFI who understands that "flying the step" does not make you go any faster but welcomes the expidited arrival of cruise speed on occasion?

 

[SkyHog]

So what about a CFI who understands that "flying the step" does not make you go any faster but welcomes the expidited arrival of cruise speed on occasion?

Does it though? You have to climb through your cruise altitude at a slow speed, then descend back down. I'd wager a guess that you probably either don't save time or take longer doing it that way.

But, if that's the argument, fine. Most people believe in it believe that flying the step magically raises your cruise speed, and that's simply repeating a fallacy that you "heard from a reliable source."

 

[taters]

Does it though? You have to climb through your cruise altitude at a slow speed, then descend back down. I'd wager a guess that you probably either don't save time or take longer doing it that way.

But, if that's the argument, fine. Most people believe in it believe that flying the step magically raises your cruise speed, and that's simply repeating a fallacy that you "heard from a reliable source."

In some planes it makes a noticeable difference assuming you leave climb power in on a cruise climb..In some lower powered planes like a C150 almost no difference at all. I have never come across the theory that the step will make you go faster...but I have seen the technique used to get an advance on Cruise speed.