flight into terain

[Michael]

I just dont understand how a pilot could get close enough to a mountain to hit it in VFR conditions..you can see it far enough out to either start turns to go above it, or turn around and take a different route.
Does anyone have some insight into what could possibly cause a person to hit a mountain? Does anyone have a story to tell about their close incounter?

Story here.

Michael

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

That one looks like a navigation error (of darn near 90 degrees) that turned into a stall/collision with terrain. It seems like the pilot was very sure that good passage to Reno could be had this route (from preflight planning?) such that they ignored the very real appearance of rocks in the windows right up until there was no way out.
That airplane, at DA over 11500', did not have any excess power to cope with the mistake either.

 

[fgcason]

Does anyone have some insight into what could possibly cause a person to hit a mountain?

"Other people have done it therefore so can I no problem cruise on..."
But the sun had to have been about 60-90 deg out of position based on the chart. There is a wall ahead and the chart is indicating 9000+ ft terrain in that direction and the valley you're supposed to be flying up is light colored thus significantly lower... Adding flaps to improve climb performance to break even is poor form under those conditions. Lots of links on that chain snapped.

I've seen pilots fly up the middle of valleys. That works great as long as you're not trying to do a 180 in a tight valley. If your turn radius intersects the terrain, so will your plane. Blind left turn in a CE152 and seeing only trees scrolling past out the window is a vote for low wings.

Does anyone have a story to tell about their close incounter?

Depends on your definition of close encounter. I grew up flying out of a grass strip in the Catskills that would scare most pilots I've flown with completely to death so maybe it qualifies: The stay in the valley pattern was great fun. Take off, ground effect to Vx then climb straight ahead toward the mountain, when the mountain gets too close make a climbing turn at Vx (don't screw this up or you will crash) to downwind. Downwind was about 400-500ft above the runway, and the trees were were about 75ft below and maybe 100ft off your wingtip. Descent to the runway was just as much fun. Routine...but there's mostly nowhere to go if the engine quits or drops to partial power except into the top of the trees.


Storal of the mory: Wingtip right up next to the trees, climbing turn the opposite direction away from the terrain. Turn radius must be less than the valley width.

 

[Anthony]

I am not an experienced mountain pilot, but since moving to Colorado a year ago I have done some mountain flying with experienced pilots and CFI's and recently dabbled by myself. Unless you are turbine or turbo powered there is ALWAYS a chance of encountering terrain when dealing with terrain that reaches above 14,000 ft. The biggest factor is the weather and wind conditions and the route through the mountains you take. Conditions can force very dramatic down drafts which our little airplanes can not overcome. I'll let more experienced folks comment further, but its not something to take lightly.

 

[Skip Miller]

Turn radius must be less than the valley width.

Frank, I know you know this: Turn radius is smaller at low speeds, so after you proceed too far up the valley, your only hope for a 180 is at min controllable airspeed in a steep turn. Stall speed goes up in a steep turn, so you make this turn on the ragged edge of a stall.

This is a recipe for disaster for all but the most experienced pilots, but then again the most experienced pilots wouldn't get in that situation.

-Skip

 

[Everskyward]

Unfortunately, people manage to hit the terrain out here in VFR conditions on a fairly regular basis. Following the wrong valley or road like the person in the story is one of the reasons. They get too far up the valley and don't have enough space, altitude or aircraft performance to turn around. I've heard of pilots trying to follow I-70 through Colorado, the problem being that it ends in a tunnel at the high point.

A number of years ago I saw a video of an accident which took place in Colorado in 1984. The wreckage wasn't found until 1987 but the video was still playable. It shows you what can happen up there if you're not paying close enough attention. You can hear the conversation as they are looking at the scenery and you can see the terrain getting closer. Finally they start to turn around. You can hear the stall warning and the the pilot says something like "hang on". Then the tape ends.

Bird Dog accident report

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Take off, ground effect to Vx then climb straight ahead toward the mountain, when the mountain gets too close make a climbing turn at Vx (don't screw this up or you will crash) to downwind.

I know the above was excerpted from the departure description for your home field, but this is NOT the procedure to survive a turn around in a rising terrain situation. In the crash sequence detailed within the link contained in the first post of this thread, the required turn technique is flight at an absolute minimum airspeed so as to obtain an absolute minimum turning radius. This usually means 1/2 flaps (max lift-actual flaps depends on aircraft wing) and flying on the ragged edge of stall within the turn. Vx isn't even a consideration during this maneuver; stall speed as configured, loaded, and banked is the only number that matters at that point.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Does anyone have some insight into what could possibly cause a person to hit a mountain?

There are as many methods as there are pilots. Unexpected downdrafts, mountain valley that rapidly and unexpectedly narrows (i.e. aircraft turns a corner to find a box wall and much narrowed valley walls), failure to know the aircraft's minimum turning radius, failure to understand how to control that number, failure to know or uinderstand altitude & aircraft performance (climb), you name it. Within the link scenario, fat dumb, and happy was the probably in initial factor (pilot did not expect a problem ergo she failed to evaluate the situation and change plans accordingly), followed by several of the above.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

A wingover/box canyon turn is one of the simplest and fun ways to turn most any aircraft 180 degrees in about its own wingspan, in a few seconds, and often with no altitude sacrified. I only got my primary CFI to do one for me by dragging it out of him, and have been practicing and teaching them ever since.

Every pilot should be practicing them.

 

[BillG]

Dave, that sounds like fun. Obviously I'm not going to try it on my own, but I'm just curious - how do you do a wingover? This is a safe maneuver to do in any airplane?

 

[grattonja]

I highly recommend that any and all pilots read Sparky Imeson's book on Mountain Flying. It ain't called the Mountain Flying Bible for nothing. It has a lot to teach about density altitude, mountain flying, emergency procedures, handling taildraggers and trikes in excessive cross winds, unfavorable field positions and wind directions, etc. The book is a wealth of information.

Jim G

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Dave, that sounds like fun. Obviously I'm not going to try it on my own, but I'm just curious - how do you do a wingover? This is a safe maneuver to do in any airplane?

First, checkout the mountainflying review/course online from ASF/AOPA great graphics/videos & PIX ! Link given at bottom of story listed in post # 1 this thread or : http://flash.aopa.org/asf/mountainFlying/flash.cfm

Then print out your certificate of completion so you'll increase your chances of never NEEDING the following maneuver.

Try this FIRST with your Certified Flight Instructor; "Box canyon turn" varient:

Pull up to gain altitude and lower airspeed while deploying max lift flaps to about 15 kts above stall, hard aileron and rudder in direction of desired turn (plane turns best to left usually) while lowering nose and promptly level out of descent flying in reverse direction of initial course.

Properly done, the G forces generated should be kept well within the normal category for GA aircraft.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

I highly recommend that any and all pilots read Sparky Imeson's book on Mountain Flying. It ain't called the Mountain Flying Bible for nothing. It has a lot to teach about density altitude, mountain flying, emergency procedures, handling taildraggers and trikes in excessive cross winds, unfavorable field positions and wind directions, etc. The book is a wealth of information.

Jim G

Ditto that. Sparky's site, mountainflying.com has a ton of PIX and info, while mine: mountainflyingvideos.com, has lots of PIX and of course actual LDG, Taxi & T.O. cockpit videos of the most demanding strips in the world.

 

[grattonja]

Ditto that. Sparky's site, mountainflying.com has a ton of PIX and info, while mine: mountainflyingvideos.com, has lots of PIX and of course actual LDG, Taxi & T.O. cockpit videos of the most demanding strips in the world.

I didn't realize that you are mountainflyingvideos.com. Good stuff. Thanks.

Jim G

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

The courses video on HYPOXIA is NOT TO BE MISSED !!!

The videoed crashes due to DA & pilot error are quite cool too...

 

[gismo]

This is the literal aviation version of "between a rock and hard place". Prior to GPS, getting lost (and the opportunity for entering a dead end canyon) was probably the major concern for pilots in the mountains. When following a canyon it can be very difficult to judge the available space and near to impossible if the canyon has any significant turns.

 

[woodstock]

A wingover/box canyon turn is one of the simplest and fun ways to turn most any aircraft 180 degrees in about its own wingspan, in a few seconds, and often with no altitude sacrified. I only got my primary CFI to do one for me by dragging it out of him, and have been practicing and teaching them ever since.

Every pilot should be practicing them.

hey, we should have tried this!

 

[Tom-D]

A wingover/box canyon turn is one of the simplest and fun ways to turn most any aircraft 180 degrees in about its own wingspan, in a few seconds, and often with no altitude sacrified. I only got my primary CFI to do one for me by dragging it out of him, and have been practicing and teaching them ever since.

Every pilot should be practicing them.

That is what I was taught many many moons ago.

WE loose an aircraft a year due to skud running Snoqualmie Pass, and Mount Index is only 4000+ feet but it sets smack in the middle of the flight path to the pass from SEA.

Or the pilot will try to follow the I-90 interstate and get cauht in the switchback at the top, and hit the wall trying to turn back into the pass.

Next comes the pilot trying to get out of a back country field with too much load. Its called stall spin trying to out climb the rising rocks.

and last, we lost a Navy Flying club C-172 in a canyon east of Mt Rainier chasing the elk herd. Every one in the aircraft was watching the elk and no one was flying. Stall spin hit the canyon wall 150' below the rim. The aircraft hit flat to the rocks, driving the floor and landing gear thru the cabin killing every one aboard.

Lessons? never fly thru a mountan, go around.

Does any one know what skud running does for you?

It allows you to see where you are going to crash.

 

[Bill]

the required turn technique is flight at an absolute minimum airspeed so as to obtain an absolute minimum turning radius.

My aerobatics instructor taught me to do hammerheads, and seemed to imply (no, outright said) that they could be used to turn an aircraft around in its own wing tips. Full power, 2g pull up to 90 degrees to horizontal, when airspeed decays almost to zero, smooth full application of rudder while applying smooth full application of opposite aileron. Pivot about, controls back to neutral, immediately pull 2g back to level headed opposite direction. He said this could save your life.

Bull or truth?

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

My aerobatics instructor taught me to do hammerheads, and seemed to imply (no, outright said) that they could be used to turn an aircraft around in its own wing tips. Full power, 2g pull up to 90 degrees to horizontal, when airspeed decays almost to zero, smooth full application of rudder while applying smooth full application of opposite aileron. Pivot about, controls back to neutral, immediately pull 2g back to level headed opposite direction. He said this could save your life.

Bull or truth?

Even your slightly above average GA pilot is not gonna be doing a Hammerhead course reversal... there's the aforementioned simpler & safer ways.

 

[Skip Miller]

He said this could save your life.

Bull or truth?

Mostly bull. It seems to me that the most common scenario is a pilot who has been plodding along at Vx trying to outclimb the rising rocks in high terrain. When he finally makes the decision that it is time to turn around, he has neither altitude, airspeed, or power enough to get the nose up high enough for a hammerhead.

Best to make the 180 decision a lot earlier, and then a conventional turn is more better.

-Skip

 

[Richard]

That is what I was taught many many moons ago.

WE loose an aircraft a year due to skud running Snoqualmie Pass, and Mount Index is only 4000+ feet but it sets smack in the middle of the flight path to the pass from SEA.

Or the pilot will try to follow the I-90 interstate and get cauht in the switchback at the top, and hit the wall trying to turn back into the pass.

Next comes the pilot trying to get out of a back country field with too much load. Its called stall spin trying to out climb the rising rocks.

and last, we lost a Navy Flying club C-172 in a canyon east of Mt Rainier chasing the elk herd. Every one in the aircraft was watching the elk and no one was flying. Stall spin hit the canyon wall 150' below the rim. The aircraft hit flat to the rocks, driving the floor and landing gear thru the cabin killing every one aboard.

Lessons? never fly thru a mountan, go around.

Does any one know what skud running does for you?

It allows you to see where you are going to crash.

An ZLA controller told me of many VFR flights he has seen drop off his radar when scudding out of LA basin via I-5 to the north. The highway tkaes a 90*left and then a 90* right turn up near the summit. Pilots fail to make one or the other or both turns. The mtn they invariably hit is called Wichita Flats.

Sparky Imesen has a video he shows at safety seminars. It's about 20 minutes long as features a full load of guys flying along in mtn terrain chasing elk. Scary stuff as they almost clip this peak or that stand of trees. They finally bought it when trying to outclimb a saddle 'tween two peaks. They stalled, just as Tom says. The video kept running right through the crash until the camcorder ran out of batteries 4 hours later. Thing is, it's obvious on the video they could have turned 20* to the left to an area of much lower terrain. In fact, they had about 10 'outs'--Sparky called them out and replayed that portion of the video to demonstrate. All the while on the video they were laughing and kept asking who's flying the plane.

Lastly, scud running, by itself, is not altogether a bad thing. Consider it another valuable item in your bag o' tricks. The problem comes when the pilot continues past the point of return, has not established minimums for wx, gets behind the a/c, attempts to follow a road or some other feature in disregard to the 'out' he had before it all wen to hell. One of the stupidest things I ever saw was a fast mover keeping his speed up while scudding through a mtn pass near where we were hiking. If he had slowed way down he may have made.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

hey, we should have tried this!

I thought about it but, after your suggestion to turn back, as we approached that first ridgeline above the lake in level flight, figured I'd save it until next time !

 

[Silicon Rallye]

A number of years ago I saw a video of an accident which took place in Colorado in 1984. The wreckage wasn't found until 1987 but the video was still playable. It shows you what can happen up there if you're not paying close enough attention. You can hear the conversation as they are looking at the scenery and you can see the terrain getting closer. Finally they start to turn around. You can hear the stall warning and the the pilot says something like "hang on". Then the tape ends.

I have a copy of the tape and made copies for the FAA FSDO for use in pilot seminars here.

 

[Tom-D]

Mostly bull. It seems to me that the most common scenario is a pilot who has been plodding along at Vx trying to outclimb the rising rocks in high terrain. When he finally makes the decision that it is time to turn around, he has neither altitude, airspeed, or power enough to get the nose up high enough for a hammerhead.

Best to make the 180 decision a lot earlier, and then a conventional turn is more better.

-Skip

Many times the pilot has been under a layer, and waits until the valley narrows, then tries to turn only to find they can't. but they won't pull the nose up and go IFR.

would you like trying to follow the road over hwy 20 from eastern washington to skagit valley on the west side.. Not good Methow valley leads you to a stone wall,

 

[silver-eagle]

I just dont understand how a pilot could get close enough to a mountain to hit it in VFR conditions..you can see it far enough out to either start turns to go above it, or turn around and take a different route.
Does anyone have some insight into what could possibly cause a person to hit a mountain? Does anyone have a story to tell about their close incounter?

Story here.

Michael

Tunnelvision. Get-there-itis. Gotta-go-now. He-did-it.

A short story. The plane is near gross. DA is 1,500. Outside temp is 90. Good news runway is 7K. Everyone else was coming and going.

Same plane. Plane is 500 under. Airport is 1,100. DA is 3,000. Runway is 3,000. LOTS of outbound traffic.

In both cases, I had more than enough room, knew where I was flying, what was around, knew the climb envelope of my plane, and was ready for how awful it would.

If I become a statistic, I hope it isn't because I was unprepared and flew into a closet.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

My aerobatics instructor taught me to do hammerheads, and seemed to imply (no, outright said) that they could be used to turn an aircraft around in its own wing tips. Full power, 2g pull up to 90 degrees to horizontal, when airspeed decays almost to zero, smooth full application of rudder while applying smooth full application of opposite aileron. Pivot about, controls back to neutral, immediately pull 2g back to level headed opposite direction. He said this could save your life.

Bull or truth?

As related to mountain flying skill? Total bull.

FWIW, any vertical maneuver requires excess energy which usually doesn't exist in the average rising terrain encounter. Most mountain impacts are arrived upon after the airspeed has been progressively reduced to critically low levels as the pilot attempts to outclimb the rocks. By the time the pilot opts for a turnaround there is no excess energy for a vertical energy maneuver. It is a very rare mountain pilot who finds the canyon suddenly narrowed while the aircraft is still in level cruise flight & flying a level cruise flight speed.

My previous advice is how you want to plan on your escape should you fly into a narrowing canyon. Drop 1/2 flaps (maximum lift), rapidly slow to minimum controllable airspeed, and then turn in the maximum radius the terrain will allow.

 

[Everskyward]

I have a copy of the tape and made copies for the FAA FSDO for use in pilot seminars here.

That's a good thing. I saw that tape as part of an accident investigation class I took in the early 1990s and it made enough of an impression on me that I remember it today. Of course that was before the days when you can easily view any number of disturbing incidents on the internet.

 

[bbchien]

My previous advice is how you want to plan on your escape should you fly into a narrowing canyon. Drop 1/2 flaps (maximum lift), rapidly slow to minimum controllable airspeed, and then turn in the maximum radius the terrain will allow.

My advice to you is to avoid flying into a narrowing canyon at all. Few have an energy excess at those altitudes.

 

[Bill]

My advice to you is to avoid flying into a narrowing canyon at all. Few have an energy excess at those altitudes.

Wouldn't even think of flying anywhere in the big western mountains without taking a mountian flying course.

 

[Tom-D]

Wouldn't even think of flying anywhere in the big western mountains without taking a mountian flying course.

Unless you are planing to go into the back country airstrips, or fly in the canyons there is no big deal getting across the rockies.

Unless you believe flying at 10,000' and hold a course is a big deal.

Do weather, and go where and when the weather allows.

 

[ejensen]

These threads often mixed two kinds of mountain flying. We are usually talking about high altitude flight and airport operations. Then we mix in backcountry flying with canyon turns, rough and short runways, etc. I think it is important to remember the difference. Like Tom says, one isn't too hard and most planes can do it although it bites too many each year. Bush flying needs special equipment and training. Most courses in Colorado labeled Mtn Flying are high alititude ops; mtn wx, aircraft performace, navigation and such. McCall, ID among other offers the other kind.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

My advice to you is to avoid flying into a narrowing canyon at all. Few have an energy excess at those altitudes.

Most folks don't go looking for a narrowing canyon experience. However, unless one never flies in the mountainous western US, or unless one flies at altitudes always greater than 14k, which, BTW, is beyond the capability of many aircraft in the GA fleet, flights through valleys and passes are an eventual certainty. Mistakes will happen and sooner or later someone picks the wrong valley or pass and that person then finds him/herself in a narrowing canyon. Better to have planned for the error in advance than to be clueless and planless when the worst happens.

Even worse to have listened to the vertical maneuver BS one can find in most FBO lobbies (or even in this thread) and attempt an Immelman, hammerhead, wingover, whatever, ending in the virtually inevitable stall/spin fatality.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

These threads often mixed two kinds of mountain flying. We are usually talking about high altitude flight and airport operations. Then we mix in backcountry flying with canyon turns, rough and short runways, etc. I think it is important to remember the difference. Like Tom says, one isn't too hard and most planes can do it although it bites too many each year. Bush flying needs special equipment and training. Most courses in Colorado labeled Mtn Flying are high alititude ops; mtn wx, aircraft performace, navigation and such. McCall, ID among other offers the other kind.

Ditto that, plus, most pilots living at sealevel or lower altitudes whether flatlanders or not, will even at altitudes of around 5000 feet MSL, be somewhat affected by mild cases of hypoxic euphoria synergistically amplified by the mountain high experience itself.

Undetectably impaired judgement applied to typically minimal mountain flying skills yields the malicious by-product we then read of from the NTSB.

 

[ejensen]

Ditto that, plus, most pilots living at sealevel or lower altitudes whether flatlanders or not, will even at altitudes of around 5000 feet MSL, be somewhat affected by mild cases of hypoxic euphoria synergistically amplified by the mountain high experience itself.

Undetectably impaired judgement applied to typically minimal mountain flying skills yields the malicious by-product we then read of from the NTSB.

Very good point. Probably would explain many of the strange accidents at 10-14,000 feet if we could get a oxygen reading just before.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Very good point. Probably would explain many of the strange accidents at 10-14,000 feet if we could get a oxygen reading just before.

What I didn't include above was the common scenario of camping/hoteling on a trip from sea level to even as low as 5000 feet MSL for a day or more 24 hours/day, combined with the flying at even higher altitudes leading to the cummulative hypoxic effects.

No chance for effective acclimatization and increased mental sharpness, it takes days for that to occur.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Unfortunately, people manage to hit the terrain out here in VFR conditions on a fairly regular basis. Following the wrong valley or road like the person in the story is one of the reasons. They get too far up the valley and don't have enough space, altitude or aircraft performance to turn around. I've heard of pilots trying to follow I-70 through Colorado, the problem being that it ends in a tunnel at the high point.

A number of years ago I saw a video of an accident which took place in Colorado in 1984. The wreckage wasn't found until 1987 but the video was still playable. It shows you what can happen up there if you're not paying close enough attention. You can hear the conversation as they are looking at the scenery and you can see the terrain getting closer. Finally they start to turn around. You can hear the stall warning and the the pilot says something like "hang on". Then the tape ends.

Bird Dog accident report

Wow. Does anybody know a source for that video? Looks like Westwind Aviation has a copy:

http://www.americasflyways.com/jun05story.html

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Wow. Does anybody know a source for that video? Looks like Westwind Aviation has a copy:

http://www.americasflyways.com/jun05story.html

There's a very similar sounding, if not the same actual video, video of a DA canyon turn screw up crash on the free ASF/AOPA online Mountain Flying Course mentioned earlier in this thread, along with some other DA pilot error type crashes.

 

[Everskyward]

There's a very similar sounding, if not the same actual video, video of a DA canyon turn screw up crash on the free ASF/AOPA online Mountain Flying Course mentioned earlier in this thread

I looked at this video and it's the ending few seconds of the same one. The complete video is much longer. It also isn't very good quality because it sat outside for a few years.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Re: stall/spin into mountain terrain (video)

A number of years ago I saw a video of an accident which took place in Colorado in 1984. The wreckage wasn't found until 1987 but the video was still playable. It shows you what can happen up there if you're not paying close enough attention. You can hear the conversation as they are looking at the scenery and you can see the terrain getting closer. Finally they start to turn around. You can hear the stall warning and the the pilot says something like "hang on". Then the tape ends.

Bird Dog accident report

AOPA has this video in their new ASF Mountain Flying course. Just jump straight to section 5-6 and play the video. Chilling!

http://flash.aopa.org/asf/mountainFlying/flash.cfm