Flight following etiquette

[Handsfield]

VFR, getting radar advisories. When not in special use airspace, I suspect I am not obligated to inform ATC of altitude change or modified route--although I would always do so as a courtesy. But what about these circumstances? Is there a requirement to inform ATC or to follow ATC vectors etc, or is it just a matter of courtesy?

1) Flying in special airspace (with clearance), e.g. class B over a major airport?

2) Flying OVER special airspace, e.g. above class B or C?

For example, flying near or over special use airspace, but not in it, ATC says "advise of any altitude change". Does the "contract" implied by my request for radar service, and ATC's agreement to provide, obligate me to follow that directive? Or is it still officially just a matter of courtesy?

I would never ask for a free service, which ATC is not obligated to provide, then not follow ATC requests (barring emergency, or course). But I'm curious about the legalities.

Thanks-- Hunter

 

[bbchien]

91.123(b): Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.

It is courteous to advise, but if your receiving radar advisory service, and receive an instruction, you must comply or say "thank you for your service, I'm on my own", and even then if the consequences are bad, you may be be cited for 91.13 "careless and reckless" operation.

Controller attitudes to VFR service vary. At C90, Chicago approach, if you re lucky enough to get VFR service (nearly never!), you wil be treated as if within Class B. That's what they expect. They make the rules.

Given that situation, I always go IFR. Then they have responsibility, too.

 

[gismo]

VFR, getting radar advisories. When not in special use airspace, I suspect I am not obligated to inform ATC of altitude change or modified route--although I would always do so as a courtesy. But what about these circumstances? Is there a requirement to inform ATC or to follow ATC vectors etc, or is it just a matter of courtesy?

1) Flying in special airspace (with clearance), e.g. class B over a major airport?

Only if you've been assigned an altitude and then you need to ask first, or if ATC "instructs" you to advise them of any altitude change. Either is quite common inside Class B or C, but also happens outside it.

2) Flying OVER special airspace, e.g. above class B or C?

Same thing, except that in the case of Class B you cannot descend into the SUA without a clearance.

For example, flying near or over special use airspace, but not in it, ATC says "advise of any altitude change". Does the "contract" implied by my request for radar service, and ATC's agreement to provide, obligate me to follow that directive? Or is it still officially just a matter of courtesy?

Yes. OTOH if you are outside positive controlled airspace (Class B,C,D) I believe you can terminate radar service if you want to deviate from ATC imposed limitations (there are some who have disagreed with me on this in the past).

 

[bbchien]

Unfortunately the quote from 92.123(b) says "In area where air traffic control is exercised" rather than "where air traffic control is exercised". If it said the latter we could brush off and go, saying "air traffic control is not now exercised". But it remains an area (b,c,d,e space) "where air traffic control is exercised". So you're stuck.

The thing I don't like about flight following in areas where they treat you as IFR, is that they offically have no collision avoidance responsibility. They're just advisory. But if you're IFR, they at least are on the hook for IFR to IFR separation.

 

[cherokeeflyboy]

Only if you've been assigned an altitude and then you need to ask first, or if ATC "instructs" you to advise them of any altitude change. Either is quite common inside Class B or C, but also happens outside it.



Same thing, except that in the case of Class B you cannot descend into the SUA without a clearance.



Yes. OTOH if you are outside positive controlled airspace (Class B,C,D) I believe you can terminate radar service if you want to deviate from ATC imposed limitations (there are some who have disagreed with me on this in the past).

Just request a Freq. change..then wait for "Freq change approved, Radar services terminated squawk 1200 good day.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Ain't this interesting. You don't have to request VFR flight following, but if you do, you must comply with instructions. Folks flying over the Class B in the Chicago area tell me you must go over 16,000 feet to pass over with advisories. Of course, you can just go VFR and pass one foot over the Class B ceiling, but it's not smart.

Passing over Saint Louis last fall VFR at night with advisories, they started to take me all the way around the Class B. I asked if passing over was possible and the controller drolled out he was able if I would do so at 16,000 feet or higher (you know that FLIB tone with the why are you botherin me little GA guy tone). To which I affirmed and called 2024Q 8 thousand climbing 16 thousand. He came back and promptly cleared me to climb.

There are some other very interesting incongruities in our wonderful system. Returning to Dallas from the south, I'm usually given a STAR when IFR. When ATIS reported IFR weather, I called Waco Center and asked for an IFR clearance. They told me if I'd wait until I was a little closer, Fort Worth Center could bring me straight in. That saved the grand tour around the Class B to the entry post on the STAR.

Lots of little quirks that can cut your gas bills once you know 'bout 'em

Best,

Dave
A-36TN ADS

 

[Toby]

The thing I don't like about flight following in areas where they treat you as IFR, is that they offically have no collision avoidance responsibility. They're just advisory. But if you're IFR, they at least are on the hook for IFR to IFR separation.

This is another good reason to get an IR. A lot of people ask me why I want to learn how to fly in bad weather. I don't, but I would like the added protection and structure of being in the system.

 

[MSmith]

Here's the benefit of my small amount of experience.

I regularly fly with flight following from two approach controllers: PHL and ACY.

The Atlantic City controllers are very relaxed about altitude and heading outside of the Class C, UNLESS they have potential converging traffic. They'll then get strict and expect the VFR aircraft to remain at current heading and altitude until the situation has passed. They're pretty open to changes inside the Class C as well as long as it's not too busy.

The Philly controllers are a little stricter (to the point of reminding you to turn on course while you're waiting for the VOR flag to flip) and a little quick to drop you ("radar services terminated") if you don't comply. They're also better about giving you an unasked-for Class B clearance when things are quiet. If you comply with instructions and answer their calls quickly, you get treated well. They do get cranky when they have to call you twice (because you didn't hear the first one, or even if they garbled it and you didn't understand it).

As a general rule, if I say "99X, beginning my descent into XXX" they'll both come back with "99X, descend at your discretion".

 

[wsuffa]

Ain't this interesting. You don't have to request VFR flight following, but if you do, you must comply with instructions. Folks flying over the Class B in the Chicago area tell me you must go over 16,000 feet to pass over with advisories. Of course, you can just go VFR and pass one foot over the Class B ceiling, but it's not smart.

Passing over Saint Louis last fall VFR at night with advisories, they started to take me all the way around the Class B. I asked if passing over was possible and the controller drolled out he was able if I would do so at 16,000 feet or higher (you know that FLIB tone with the why are you botherin me little GA guy tone). To which I affirmed and called 2024Q 8 thousand climbing 16 thousand. He came back and promptly cleared me to climb.

That's true with most Class B's. It's almost like a directive has gone out "not in or over my airspace, you don't".

I've been told that I can avoid a 50 mile detour on arrival to a couple of airports under the shelf if I cancel IFR 50 miles out and proceed VFR (no FF) over the top. Going IFR is no guarantee, last time into the Cincy area I went into Blue Ash (diagonally opposite across the Class B from my arrival direction). 50 NM detour around the Class B and well east of the Lunken Class D - and they did it below the Class B shelf. That's the worst of all worlds, you still have see-and-avoid with all the VFR traffic skirting under the shelf, and you have a long detour around to boot. Before Cincy became a Class B, if you were VFR/FF they wouldn't let you over the top, even arriving at a nearby airport. A couple of times I informed them that I would just proceed north at 4500 outside the Class C through their westbound departure corrodor.... I was promptly cleared directly across CVG and sent on my way.

And then you have the ones that cancel your IFR on their own, leaving you hanging.

There are some other very interesting incongruities in our wonderful system. Returning to Dallas from the south, I'm usually given a STAR when IFR. When ATIS reported IFR weather, I called Waco Center and asked for an IFR clearance. They told me if I'd wait until I was a little closer, Fort Worth Center could bring me straight in. That saved the grand tour around the Class B to the entry post on the STAR.

Lots of little quirks that can cut your gas bills once you know 'bout 'em

That's absolutely true. Houston will let you go over at 16K and 17K. Ft. Worth Center requires FL180 & up to go over Dallas IFR.

 

[MSmith]

Another example ...

This past weekend, I was flying safety pilot for a friend. Just VFR hood work - no approaches.

We chose to fly N87 - ARD - CKZ - PTW - LNS. That middle VOR is north of a direct course between ARD and PTW and therefore out of the way. On the way out, we skipped CKZ after hearing the controller trying to get planes out of the way of skydivers.

On the way home, we told the controller that we were VFR to N87. When we turned at PTW towards CKZ (looking off course), the controller came back:

ATC: "56T - you're headed to Trenton Robbinsville, right?"
Me: "56T - yes, via Charlie Kilo ... Zebra and then Yardley"
ATC: "56T - OK, maintain VFR"

(Yes, I had a brain fart - I haven't had to say a Z for a while.)

So, he was nice about not quite implying that we were off course, but checking just the same.

My friend hasn't been using flight following much - I always do if I'm going XC - but after this weekend's experiences in the haze he'll be doing so more often. It's nice to have the radar back you up when it's 10SM worth of murk.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Mark:

I've had the same thing occur both IFR and VFR. Center would call and ask me to check altitude or verify clearance when I was a little off one or the other. This normally occurs in the Approach/departure environment when I've climbed or descended through an altitude where I was supposed to stop (geesh).

OTOH, I have had Center call and verify my clearance to find out they had it different than me and expected me to go another direction when the airway changed. I've also had a controller call and ask what altitude I was showing; didn't like that!! I was a little over 100 feet high when the auto pilot had kicked off and I hadn't noticed. He was nice to come back with an altimeter setting which was a nice way for someone that couldn't hold altitude like me to have an excuse

So Cal recently called me to say I was off the airway to the south by one mile. That was interesting because my GPS and VOR were each showing me within 2 degrees of where I was supposed to be (and I was about 30 from the VOR I was using). I just turned north a little but did raise it to some controllers I knew. Their opiniion is it could very well have been outdated equipment the controller had if my equpment was properly calibrated.

Best,

Dave
A-36TN ADS

Best,

Dave
A-36TN ADS

 

[Henning]

VFR, getting radar advisories. When not in special use airspace, I suspect I am not obligated to inform ATC of altitude change or modified route--although I would always do so as a courtesy. But what about these circumstances? Is there a requirement to inform ATC or to follow ATC vectors etc, or is it just a matter of courtesy?

1) Flying in special airspace (with clearance), e.g. class B over a major airport?


2) Flying OVER special airspace, e.g. above class B or C?

For example, flying near or over special use airspace, but not in it, ATC says "advise of any altitude change". Does the "contract" implied by my request for radar service, and ATC's agreement to provide, obligate me to follow that directive? Or is it still officially just a matter of courtesy?

I would never ask for a free service, which ATC is not obligated to provide, then not follow ATC requests (barring emergency, or course). But I'm curious about the legalities.

Thanks-- Hunter

Basically, it's like this: If ATC gives you a squawk i.e. you're not 1200 on the transponder anymore, you need to follow their instructions unless of course they put you into harms way which leaves you using PIC authority to decline as unable, but your reason better be good (traffic, cloud clearances...). Inside Class B, you really aren't under "flight following", you are on a clearance which you are expected to fly exactly as issued unless of course you need to deviate to avoid an accident and you better hope it was an ATC or other pilot induced situation. In other words, if you're talking to them, you have to do what they say. If I am XC with FF in open airspace and want to deviate from my current altitude, I'll advise them beforehand as a courtesy, even though I'm not typically on an assigned altitude or vector, to give them an opportunity to look ahead and see if it will effect any other traffic they have and they may ask me to hold altitude or just ask me to report when at new altitude.

 

[kath]

There have been a couple times when I've wanted to practice some maneuvers (for fun) while enroute while on flight following, and have called up to advise ATC of my intentions and been awfully glad I did. Once I said, "Approach, Cessna XXX would like to pause and do some maneuvers in this area" and ATC came back with "XXX, could you either wait about 5 minutes or climb to 5000 for your maneuvers? There's someone following right behind you."
So now I call 'em up and advise them every time.

--Kath

 

[gismo]

So Cal recently called me to say I was off the airway to the south by one mile. That was interesting because my GPS and VOR were each showing me within 2 degrees of where I was supposed to be (and I was about 30 from the VOR I was using).

Ah, Dave if you do the math you'll see that at 30 miles out, each degree is about half a mile off course so 2 degrees and a mile off makes sense. Maybe their equipment actually is calibrated

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Ah, Dave if you do the math you'll see that at 30 miles out, each degree is about half a mile off course so 2 degrees and a mile off makes sense. Maybe their equipment actually is calibrated

Bu...bu...but Lance, I'm not as technically adept as you, but doesn't the airway have some width. She didn't say off course one mile, she said off the airway

Best,

Dave