Flight Before 9/11

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Mtns2Skies, Sep 11, 2008.

  1. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies Final Approach

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    Even though I was merely in 1st grade when this tragedy occurred, I do remember it clearly. But this thread isn't about that day; it's about before it. Since I've only recently become a (student) pilot I am unsure of what has changed from before and after that fateful day. I know that there is now the restricted zones around Washington D.C. but could someone fill me in on what else has changed?
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2008
  2. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    Wherever the president, vice president, and anyone else the secret service thinks is a sufficient big shot goes, there is a TFR and a no fly zone. Oh, and we're not supposed to fly near stadia with active sports, although the FAA as no idea when these things are happening. We're supposed to know, however.
     
  3. gprellwitz

    gprellwitz Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Don't forget the do not loiter over power plants,, etc., the difficulty in accessing the ramps at many airports, the need for a passport when coming back into the country from Canada, the Bahamas, etc., the requirement to prove citizenship when taking flight training (or all the rigamarole if you're not a citizen), etc. And I wasn't flying pre-2001 either, so my list is probably incomplete, too.
     
  4. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    Used to be a real nice airport lakeside of Chicago. Da mayor used 9/11 as a pretext to tear it down. Can't land there any more. Sux.
     
  5. CJones

    CJones Final Approach

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    Meigs field was plowed under in the name of 'safety from terrorists'.

    Security to GA ramps at larger airfields has increased ten-fold. I flew to MDW in the summer of 2001 and I simply needed to tell them which airplane I was going to to have access to the ramp. I returned to MDW in October 2001 and they had a rent-a-cop standing by the metal detector to the door to the ramp. Coming in off the ramp, you had to acquire 'security passes' for you and your passengers, and had to present them to said 'rent-a-cop' to get back to the plane.

    In general, people are a bit more suspicious of others. In November 2001, the flying club from school was planning a trip to Chicago. We sent the open invitation to the general flying club email list. We (I and another guy were in charge of planning the trip) got SEVERAL replies from people with very middle-eastern sounding names that had never been to a meeting, but now they wanted to fly with us to Chicago. Pre-9/11, we wouldn't have thought twice about it. Post-9/11, we were honestly concerned about how to handle the situation. Luckily a snowstorm moved in and caused us to cancel the trip, but still... By the way, we never heard from any of those people again after that trip was cancelled. :dunno:
     
  6. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies Final Approach

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    Not meaning to judge or anything but there are VERY VERY few people that want/ willing to hurt the US and even fewer are Muslim/ middle eastern. I have many friends that are Muslim/middle eastern and get quite a bit of grief for their heritage. So feel the need to correct you on this prospect of being afraid of Muslims.
     
  7. gprellwitz

    gprellwitz Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I agree but, as Chris said, "In general, people are a bit more suspicious of others." Doesn't mean that it's logical or based in anything but emotion and rhetoric. Just look at some of the demonization of Japanese that was done during WWII. Not a proud moment in history, but a reflection of the fear and anger that gripped the country. It's always easier to engender this sort of reaction when the "enemy" can be easily identified by racial or cultural differences. That's why people like Timothy McVeigh (sp?) escape the demonization. Heck, after the school shootings, I look suspiciously at the students dressed in long black dusters!
     
  8. SkyHog

    SkyHog Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Coronado Airport in Albuquerque was destroyed in a similar fashion to Meigs post 9/11 due to "Security Concerns" which were also labeled as "Safey Concerns."

    9/11 Was bad for everyone.
     
  9. Tim

    Tim Line Up and Wait

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    Before we had the guts to stand up to the Government when they went over board to protect us!:(
     
  10. CJones

    CJones Final Approach

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    I agree that stereotyping is wrong. I go to a major engineering school where there are several thousand students of middle-eastern and Asian descent - I sit beside them everyday in classes. I hope that I don't give the impression that I am closed-minded in any way - especially acceptance of other cultures.

    I used this as an example to show how mindsets can be altered after a major event such as 9/11. We were planning a trip of two or more airplanes flying to MDW which is very near downtown Chicago little more than a month after 9/11. We sent out a blanket invitation and got multiple (7-8 individual replies) from people who had NEVER been to a club meeting and NOBODY in the club knew who they were. I try my best not to stereotype people, but in that given situation, I was and will continue to be suspicious. Adding to the suspiscion is the face that we never heard from them again after the trip was cancelled.
     
  11. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Disagree.

    Who's affected by the Washington ADIZ and FRZ?

    Who can't fly to DCA any more?

    Who lost three other airports in the DC area?

    Who couldn't fly anywhere near class B for months?

    Who's been needing to build fences that weren't already there?

    How many Part 139 airports have been destroyed for "security reasons?"

    Who can't fly near sporting events, nuke plants, etc?

    Sure, the airlines got thick cockpit doors and procedures to go with them, the joke that is the TSA, etc. but in the grand scheme of things I think GA has been more affected. Airlines, well, they're more of a pain in the butt to get on but once they're flying it's almost the same. GA has been the subject of numerous changes simply because there aren't a lot of us and that makes us an easy target for political types.
     
  12. ScottM

    ScottM Taxi to Parking

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    +100

    Now we accept anything they tell us.
     
  13. ScottM

    ScottM Taxi to Parking

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    One big change that still annoys me is that prior to 9/11, on a long flight in a death tube, I could get up and walk to the back of the plane to stretch my legs. Now I cannot. The reason is they (TSA, airlines, MiB, etc.) do not want me walking to the back of the airplane for risk of a hijacking. Apparently on 9/11 the hijackers went aft to hijack the plane. Go figure.
     
  14. sba55

    sba55 En-Route

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    At least around here, people don't seem to be any more suspicious than they've always been. I was at Santa Monica the other day. It was 11pm, the airport was closed, and we were simply trying to leave the airport grounds. Since it was dark, however, I didn't see that you could go up the stairs and then take an elevator down.

    So instead, we decided to inspect the airport fence to see if we could jump over. Not surprisingly, there was a big gap in the fence with about a 4' drop on the other side. My friend was wearing high heels, so she was having a bit of trouble getting down. Anyways, just as she was about to get over the fence, the police pulled up in a big truck. It's not that he saw us - he was just on his way home and there was a gate right next to us. As he pulled up, I waved at him and he looked at us with a sort of surprised expression. Told him we were just trying to leave :D He asked where we were coming from (that plane over there) and called us a cab. Never had police dispatch call me a cab before :)

    So at least as far as all my encounters with airport police are concerned - suspicious is not a word I'd use, even though I have an accent.

    -Felix
     
  15. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack Final Approach

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    Let's not forget the Mickey Mouse (Disney) "TFR"s- really in place to keep the banner planes away.

    At air shows (and meny other venues)- can't bring coolers or lunch boxes in- for security reasons. any chance the food vendors had any say in that? Nawww:no:

    Need to show ID & proof of citizenship before flight lessons now.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2008
  16. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies Final Approach

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    wow good point Jack.
     
  17. TMetzinger

    TMetzinger Final Approach

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    On the subject of Muslim and Islam:

    How many 9/11 terrorists professed to be Muslim, and felt that all "good" Muslims would support their actions? ALL of them.

    How many Islamic Countries have outlawed and actively prosecuted the supposed minority that preach Jihad, approves of terrorist actions, and who would kill us if they could? NONE of them.

    I'm willing to believe that Islam is a peaceful religion, but unless it's willing to police it's own ranks, it shouldn't be surprised when victims of it's extreme fringes feel that the entire Islamic community is suspect.

    The same thing goes for any other "group" (whether it's a religion, a society, or a nation-state). If you value your good name on the world stage, you better be willing to protect it, by shedding your own blood if necessary. When some supposed "Christians" started blowing up abortion clinics in the US, many of their fellow Christians denounced them and actively assisted in the investigations and prosecutions
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2008
  18. fgcason

    fgcason En-Route

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    Let's see...
    Security: Walk up to the runway. No fences anywhere. Plane doors unlocked and the keys likely hanging from the DG knob.
    WX briefing: The sky is blue and white so just toss some grass in the air to determine wind direction.
    The equivalent of today's mandatory TFR briefing to avoid intercept/arrest: Just take off.
    Pilot knowledge: Intercept procedures? What's that? Doesn't matter unless you're flying across international borders. ADIZ was the same thing.
    Enroute: Circle nuke plants and dams to have a look just for fun. Overfly just about anything anywhere. Just call up approach anywhere and let them know you want to transit across their airspace at xxxx MSL. Never worry about where the political figures are traveling because you're just an irrelevant dot passing through on the radar scope if anyone happens to glance at you.
    Snoop around on ramps or just drive up to an airport and sit on the tailgate and have lunch while watching planes. (I've been run off a few times for doing the exact same thing with the exact same behavior pattern that I did before 2001 - never had that problem before)
    AOPA email: Never got one of those annoying special airspace restriction notices at all even when the president is in town.

    I won't even get into the changes at the nice relaxed laid back friendly airport I use to fly out of near my parents house other than to say they got their security layout plans from the blueprints of the supermax penitentiary near Pueblo Colorado. Flippin scary place to the point that I chickened out about halfway up the entry road. Sad and pathetic.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2008
  19. Jay Honeck

    Jay Honeck Touchdown! Greaser!

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    As you've read, there are more restrictions (called TFRs -- Temporary Flight Restrictions) than before 9/11. These usually encompass large gatherings of people (sporting events) and wherever the President of the US is located.

    Commercial airports initially saw a dramatic increase in security, but that has been ratcheted way back. For a while you couldn't even stop your car in front of an airport terminal.

    GA airports also saw an initial increase in security, but that, too, has returned to normal. We're all a bit more suspicious of who we see at the airport than before, but that's about it.

    As far as flying in and out of most GA airports, nothing has changed. I can still hop in either of my planes ten minutes from now, and fly to Florida (or California, or wherever) without speaking to or asking permission of anyone. It's a truly wonderful freedom we have in the U.S., and I thank goodness for those freedoms every time I fly.
     
  20. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Actually, not a whole hell of a lot really for GA. Commercial aviation has seen a lot more. You have an extra ADIZ and there's an extra step or so in the reporting procedure when coming in and out of the country. There's been differences on ramps with locking planes up, that used to never happen.
     
  21. mdreger

    mdreger Pre-takeoff checklist

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    The TSA (and it's extensive bureaucracy) didn't exist,
    DHS (and it's extensive bureaucracy) didn't exist,
    The idea that the U.S. government/military would actually shoot you down would have been thought to be not possible (unless illegally flying across actual national borders).,
    You could leave your shoes on as you passed through the metal detectors at the airport,
    You could enter the National Park exhibit area below "The Arch" in St. Louis without passing through a metal detector,
    You could go to the various Smithsonian Institution buildings in D.C. without going through metal detectors,
    You could actually fly an aircraft to any/or all the airports in the D.C. Metro area,
    Our "Brave" politicians in D.C. didn't run for cover if/when a citizen flew near the D.C. metro area in a C152,
    You could jump into a plane with little more than a glance at the sky and not fear encroaching on a politically motivated TFR and risk military intervention, or attack,
    You could board an aircraft without removing your belt, unbuttoning your pants, etc., so "security" can check you out,
    Your luggage wasn't regularly rifled through by "security" at the airport,
    You could go to a 'ball game without going through metal detectors/"security screening",
    If you happened to be in FL, you could fly over Disney World just to see what it looked like from the air,
    If you wanted to come to Chicago, you could land right next to the downtown area,
    The primary purpose of a weather briefing was to determine if there was any WEATHER out there that may very well kill you, now the primary purpose is to determine if there is a TFR where the government may very well kill you,
    When you wanted to fly on an airliner, you were considered an innocent, law abiding, citizen, now you are considered a terrorist threat until such time as you prove you are not through search of you and all possessions, and surrender of ANYTHING they want to name as potential contraban,
    You could accompany a friend/relative to the airport/airline gate area to see them off,
    You could wait in the drive through area of the airport for your friend/relative upon their return from the trip,
    You could wait in the airline gate area for your friend/relative upon their return flight from their trip,
    A few more legacy airlines MAY have still been in business,
    A few less airlines MAY have not entered bankurptcy,


    I'm sure I could continue this list, but I'm tired of thinking right now..