First time I've ever left a flight lesson ****ed off.

xmuerte

xmuerte

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Nov 16, 2011
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12
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Sparks, NV
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Display name:
Josh
Hi POA, long time lurker, first time poster.

Here's my backstory: Started my PPL in September, finished up early last month in about 43 hrs. Checkride went great, the examiner had 99% great things to say about me, and one or two weak areas he pointed out. For my entire PPL, I had the same one instructor: a young kid working his first job after finishing Embry Riddle. He and I got along great, and I thought of him much more as a friend than just an instructor. He left for Florida around the same time I finished my PPL, so since I need a new instructor I've decided to switch to another flight school to begin my IR. As much as I enjoyed flying with my original instructor, I realized he was a very low-time pilot with little experience, and I want the benefit of a more experienced teacher going forward.

Fast forward to today, my first lesson with the new school/instructor. Also my first flight in a C172 after doing all my training in the warrior. So today was supposed to be all about transitioning to high wing, and flying a new plane with a new instructor. No IR work on the agenda, just basic familiarization. But from the moment he handed me the can, I felt like this instructor put me on the defensive about everything. When I asked to fly the 172P instead of N model, I had to explain why. We go out to preflight and I ask him to show me the critical parts to a c172 preflight. He stands there and watches me read the checklist and only offers information when I directly ask him a question. Basically laughs in my face when I mention I don't like not being able to pop the cowling and put my eyes and hands on the engine for preflight; tells me I can come an hour early next time and take all the cowling screws off if I want to. The flight didn't go much better. I felt like he basically left me on my own to fool around, part of the time he played around with something on his ipad, and didn't really offer anything helpful until we went back for pattern work.

In the pattern, I got overly focused on a new plane and unusual noise abatement procedures (that basically require your final to be about a 30* angle to the right of centerline until the last 10 seconds or so) and made a few dumb mistakes. Hit the throttle before raising flaps on my first T&G. Flew my downwinds slower than normal. Misjudged the flare once and set it down pretty hard. We came back in and parked, and he even gave me a hard time about stowing the towbar because I didn't know it came apart (the ones I'm used to didn't). Then the best he could managed was something to the effect of, 'well it wasn't too bad overall' and that's about the closest I got to any positive reinforcement.

Basically, I went to a new school with a new instructor looking for some instruction transitioning to a new plane and to build a new rapport. And instead of getting that, I felt like I got a checkride and a good looking down on. So I tell you this story to ask for your feedback. I've had plenty of days where I left the ramp discouraged by a poor performance on my part or a big mistake, but I've never left the ramp ****ed off before. Today, I left ****ed off, and then stewed on a 45 minute drive back home. I have no doubt the guy is an accomplished pilot and a qualified instructor, I just don't know how to feel about today. I love flying too much and it makes me too happy to feel this way after a flight.

I appreciate any input you all have for me.
 
Welcome. It is good to vent and hopefully this was just a bad day for both of you... And......... It is a Monday too........

Ben
 
I know you know this, but don't feel like you have to stay with him. If you want to stay at this flight school then just ask for a different instructor. You are there to learn and there is no sense in flying with someone who you are not happy with. It will be a distraction and take away from the learning process. Good luck
 
In a similar situation I would think that I might not know as much about flying as the CFII knows, but I know all I need to know about whether I will ever fly with him again.
 
+1 to Matt's advice about auditioning a different instructor. Been there, done that.

Everyone learns differently. Everyone teaches differently. It's "normal" for the two to clash. Hopefully you'll find someone at that school that teaches the way you like to learn.

Something to take away from this is to have the wisdom to recognize warning signs with the instructor and chutzpah to say, "I'm ending the lesson for the moment. Can we go and have a talk with the Chief Instructor?" before you've spent too much money.

I too am in a transition from a Warrior to the C172SP. Doing the new work with Marcair @ 52F in Roanoke, TX. "Random draw" of instructor paired me with the Gilbert B., who is also the Asst. Chief Instructor. Due to time available, first lesson was classroom for general review and aircraft systems, then a pre-flight with both of us going over the checklist and him pointing out important differences and me asking questions on areas I didn't immediately understand.

A good lesson. And my "antennae were up" for the first 30 minutes until he demonstrated that his style of teaching met my needs. But I was ready to ask for someone else if needed.

Surpassed them actually. His style on the ground is better than my primary instructor's. If his "in the air" style is just as good, I'm going to learn a lot from him.
 
Makes you appreciate your first instructor huh? By the way welcome to POA!
 
If you aren't comfortable with his style, don't fly with him again. Plain and simple.
Transitioning is just extra "stuff".
Schedule yourself with a different CFI and hopefully it will go better.
 
You didn't get what you needed. Ask the school for a different instructor until you get someone who works with (for) you.
 
Henning said:
Your money, your feet, your choice.
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:yeahthat:

And Welcome! I see Ben was the first to welcome you after your #1 post. He's our "host with the most." (The most what, we're not sure).
 
Henning said:
Your money, your feet, your choice.
Click to expand...

Yep. No point in continuing with that instructor. Sometimes the chemistry's not there. Sometimes you find an instructor with no "there" there too.

Welcome aboard!

Jeff
 
Unfortunately, I have experienced more poor to very poor instructors than the good or very good ones that I have met with or used. But the good ones are golden.

Can you imagine if a teacher who was teaching your kids was doing it for "time building" before something better comes up?

What I have learned is to find someone who does this because they love it. I would talk to instructors casually before ever considering flying with them. Listen to how they talk with their students during pre-flight or post-flight debriefing. Do they do pre- & post- debriefings? Do they know the maintenance status of the flight school airplanes? Do they have good reputations?


My two best instructors had these characteristics:
  • One owned his own business, and instructed for the fun of it.
  • One was a former American Airlines MD-80 captain, 9,000+ hours, who quit the airlines to be a stay-at-home dad (wife was a physician) and instructed because he loved it.
  • Both had a great sense of humor (necessary for flying with me).
  • Both had a great respect for safety. Both tested my ability to deal with simulated emergencies.
  • Neither was ever condescending. Ever. To the contrary, they were respectful and pleasant.
  • Both tried to give me real-world scenarios; I obtained over 10 hours of actual IMC time with my CFII during my instrument training, including several below-minimum approaches to see what that looks like.
Good luck in finding a good instructor. They are out there.
 
I was cool with everything this guy did until you mentioned he was farting around with his toy during your flight.
This guy is not for you- if he was sincere about shaking you up a little (which isn't a bad thing- put yourself in an instructor's shoes with a student who knows just enough to maybe be a royal pain), he'd have been more pro-active during the flight. Sounds like he's just not motivated to teach.

I also don't get why you think it was a mistake to add power before retracting flaps on a go-around in a 172. If this CFI told you that, run away and don't look back. Flaps or no, once you put the mains on it's not going to climb without lots of power... take it from someone with more than one flight in a 172. To climb, in any situation, power is the first thing. Without it, nothing else will help much, so it's a good idea to make sure you have that first. Smooth throttle-up, carb heat off, and a quick look at the engine gauges. I'm pretty sure that's true with any airplane, although I don't have much experience with low-wing Pipers. And if you pull the flaps in ground effect, even with power a 172 won't want to climb at a steep angle, which may be important once you're almost out of runway.
 
dmccormack said:
"Playing on his iPad"?

Dude -- I'd do a power off 180, land it hard and short, and tell him to get out.
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When I glance over in the soup with my foggles on and see my CFI tinkering with his iPad, it gives me confidence... YMMV. :D
 
Seeing as you have broken the ice with this guy, I'd go back for my next lesson and have a good understanding about who is working for who. when he brakes out the iPad I simply tell that is going to get him fired .

Remember, as has been said already you are his boss not the other way around.

But I would not throw away the time you have already invested.
 
What is your reasoning as to why you wanted to fly the P model versus the N model and what was the instructor's for wanting you to use the N model?

What was the instructor doing on the iPad? Was it chart, checklists or notepad? Many of us are starting to move over to the iPad as our paperless cockpit.

It sounds like you were in fact a little over your head with your first flight in making an aircraft transition. That may be why the instructor was playing it a little loose during the lesson. To try and keep the mood a little lower key for you. You might want to give another lesson a try and see if it goes any better before making a change.
 
LearDriver said:
What is your reasoning as to why you wanted to fly the P model versus the N model and what was the instructor's for wanting you to use the N model?

What was the instructor doing on the iPad? Was it chart, checklists or notepad? Many of us are starting to move over to the iPad as our paperless cockpit.

It sounds like you were in fact a little over your head with your first flight in making an aircraft transition. That may be why the instructor was playing it a little loose during the lesson. To try and keep the mood a little lower key for you. You might want to give another lesson a try and see if it goes any better before making a change.
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That is an interesting question. I would imagine the answer to both is 'Aircraft Condition'. He doesn't want to fly the POS and the instructor doesn't want him to turn the other into a POS.;)
 
Henning said:
That is an interesting question. I would imagine the answer to both is 'Aircraft Condition'. He doesn't want to fly the POS and the instructor doesn't want him to turn the other into a POS.;)
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Hmmmmm...I guess I won't take the 172N commentary personally, and I would put my 172N up against any 172 out there, but I digress :rolleyes:

The replies are spot on, you are the boss, you run the show, if fact you know that you are PIC on any of these flights, what you say in that airplane goes.

I just have one question: At, I think you said 43 hours for your PPL, what's the rush into your IR? How about flying for a while, getting some real world experience, both good and challenging one's, improving your proficiency, and then chasing the IR. I think you'll find that you will be rewarded for the time spent just flying and learning. But, what the heck do I know...
 
bartmc said:
When I glance over in the soup with my foggles on and see my CFI tinkering with his iPad, it gives me confidence... YMMV. :D
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Bah.

If you're under foggles and he's heads down with the toy, who's looking for other aircraft?

Don't tell me "his iPad has TCAS" because if that's what you're relying on to "see and avoid" -- well, GA is far deeper in excrement than I ever imagined...

:mad:


The recent infantile preoccupation with pads suggests some toilet training issues...
 
Not every great pilot is a great instructor.

Remember that YOU are the one paying the bill. He works for you. There are times when you are somewhat subservient to him, but when you're paying you deserve INSTRUCTION, not just a knowledgable passenger that's riding with you so he can play with his toy.

My $0.02,

BTW, welcome to the forum. You have come to the right place.
 
I agree with rotty daddy. The power goes in first followed by bringing the flaps up to 20 and setting climb attitude. The C172 isn't much different than any other plane.
 
dmccormack said:
Bah.

If you're under foggles and he's heads down with the toy, who's looking for other aircraft?

Don't tell me "his iPad has TCAS" because if that's what you're relying on to "see and avoid" -- well, GA is far deeper in excrement than I ever imagined...

:mad:


The recent infantile preoccupation with pads suggests some toilet training issues...
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Great catch, exceptional point Dan, I missed that one.
 
  • You learned how to fly a C172.
  • You learned how to stow a two-piece tow bar
  • You got a signoff for an hour of instruction
  • You learned you never want to fly with this guy again
  • You didn't bend the plane


Sounds like a pretty good day after all.
 
One thing you'll find in aviation is that you can tell by the end of the first flight whether or not you ever want to fly with this person again. The answer here is no, so you shouldn't.

With experience, you will hopefully be able to tell before getting into the plane that you're with someone you never want to fly with again, and then save both of you the time and expense.

Sorry you had a bad lesson. The guy clearly is a bad fit for you.
 
I guess I don't know how some flight schools work. I made it a point to talk to some CFIs ahead of time to ask about their teaching styles, my learning styles, and to get clear up front what my, and the CFI's, expectations were. Then I started training with the CFI I felt most comfortable with. It sounds like a lot of places assign a CFI to a student - I don't think I'd go that route without some input of my own.

Nothing beats actually flying with the CFI, though. It's your time, your money, and your rating - if you don't like what you are getting, get someone else.
 
Pilots who began with Cessnas and have stuck with them think that an aircraft engine consists of no more than a dipstick and a Fuel-strainer Drain-Knob. How did they fit an engine in that little hole, anyway? :D

C172_fuel_strainer.jpg
 
Thanks everyone for your feedback. I didn't expect so much of it so quickly :)

I'll try and answer everyone's questions:
- I asked for the P model because I'm considering buying a share in a flying club that owns a P model. I figured I might as well get time in the same aircraft I'm looking at buying into. That's all. I didn't even know the condition of the planes when I asked to switch.
- The flaps before power thing is the way I was always taught for T&Gs. As my primary instructor explained it, he wanted everything else setup so that once you hit the throttle all you are doing is flying the plane, not changing flap settings/carb heat/etc.
- Regarding the ipad app, he was running some sort of mapping app I believe. He told me on the ground something to the effect of, 'you're gonna mess around with a new plane and i'm gonna mess around with my new toy'. (Don't remember the exact quote.)
- As for why I'm starting my IR so soon after PPL, the answer is a bit complicated. My end goal is to get my commercial and fly for a living (too late to talk me out of it, I already quit my job to pursue this). The IR does two things for me: 1. Makes me a better and safer pilot, and 2. Gives me the option to spend some of my time building in rotorcraft training in case I decide to go that route instead of fixed wing.

The end result is I'm going back to the same guy at least once more. I don't want to judge him based on just one flight, and he told me he'll give me a rental signoff as long as everything goes well next flight. (Which I think was kind of a compliment?)
 
FlySince9 said:
Pilots who began with Cessnas and have stuck with them think that an aircraft engine consists of no more than a dipstick and a Fuel-strainer Drain-Knob. How did they fit an engine in that little hole, anyway? :D

C172_fuel_strainer.jpg
Click to expand...

HAH.

My ground school devoted an entire class to the chief mechanic who spent 2+ hours with us out in the hangar, explaining aircraft systems, showing us all the things to look for in preflight (like the death screw between the empennage and stabilator), explaining the most common issues he saw as the mechanic. I think it was easily the most beneficial class of my entire ground training.
 
Tracey said:
:yeahthat:

And Welcome! I see Ben was the first to welcome you after your #1 post. He's our "host with the most." (The most what, we're not sure).
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Most =

I have the "Most" fun.
I live is the "Most" beautiful place in the world.
I fly the "Most" exciting plane.

Other then that I am a poor, simple and ugly old guy. :yesnod::yesnod:;);):rofl:

Ps.... Tracey,,, you are now OFF my christmas card list too.:yikes::wink2::wink2:

Ben.
 
xmuerte said:
- The flaps before power thing is the way I was always taught for T&Gs. As my primary instructor explained it, he wanted everything else setup so that once you hit the throttle all you are doing is flying the plane, not changing flap settings/carb heat/etc.
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I agree with you, and not with the other guys. If I can't take a second or two to look down and raise the flap selector, while the engine is at idle, before giving full power, then that runway is too short for T&Gs and I'm going to do a full stop/taxi back. When the power is in, my eyes are on the runway, not my flap handle.
 
bartmc said:
When I glance over in the soup with my foggles on and see my CFI tinkering with his iPad, it gives me confidence... YMMV. :D
Click to expand...

If you are in the soup, why do you have you foggles on? :D

Seriously, I agree the OP should fly with a different instructor to see he if can find a better fit. However, I am not willing to crucify the instructor over use of an Ipad in the cockpit based on one side of the story. What some of you refer to as his "toy", many others see as a tool if used correctly. I see that the OP said he was looking to start his instrument rating, but I read nothing that made me think he was under the hood on this flight.

In short, playing Angry Birds = bad, using ForeFlight or some other program for frequencies, charts and situational awareness = good. That said, if the instructor isn't fully up to speed on the use of the Ipad to the point were he can't focus on the task at hand or is using paid lesson time to figure it out, that is totally unacceptable.
 
I see I was typing while Josh responded. that was exactly one of my points. the instructor needs to have his Ipad figured out before he brings it on the lesson if its going to take away from his teaching.
 
For the record Dave, I don't disagree with you. I had a mock checkride with an instructor who used his ipad+GPS to track us and keep situational awareness. I never once felt like he was 'playing around' or wasn't focused on his job. But what happened yesterday was not the same thing. the ipad only came out for a few minutes and I caught enough glances to know it was not anything other than experimenting with it. I wouldn't even have a problem with that necessarily, under the right circumstances. But first lesson with a new student isn't the right circumstances.

I don't mean to publicly slay the guy--maybe we just don't click personality wise, or maybe we were having a bad day, or whatever. And you're exactly right... this is only one side of the story.
 
Josh,

As I said, I think you should fly with another instructor to see if you just fit better. I also think it's good that you are going for a second lesson with this guy. Maybe either you or he was just having a bad day and you'll find that you will work well together. If not, don't feel bound to him and move on and find someone who works for you.

I was in no way trying to belittle "your side" of the story. My point was that you made one mention of the Ipad and some folks reacted like he pulled out a Nintendo Game Boy. Used properly, it is a great asset in the cockpit.
 
xmuerte said:
The end result is I'm going back to the same guy at least once more. I don't want to judge him based on just one flight, and he told me he'll give me a rental signoff as long as everything goes well next flight. (Which I think was kind of a compliment?)
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Good on you. You're willing to give the guy a second chance, a rare thing. But before another flight you should give this guy serious dressing down. He's your employee, and he will perform to the standards you set. If he can't do that, he shouldn't take the job. If he doesn't want to do that, he can vote with his feet. The basis of every successful relationship is good communication.
 
Talk to the chief plilot and tell him you do not want to fly with him again for lack of professionalism or whatever reason you have. You are the boss, you are paying, your call. And ask for a refund. He made you waste time and money. If they want to keep your business they will probably accept if on your flignot you can blow them off. Sometime you have to keep people at bay or they will rip you off.

Don't let one bad experience set you back ht training. cheers.
 
FlySince9 said:
Pilots who began with Cessnas and have stuck with them think that an aircraft engine consists of no more than a dipstick and a Fuel-strainer Drain-Knob. How did they fit an engine in that little hole, anyway? :D
Click to expand...
People who fly later model ones might have that impression. The 170 I used to fly and the early sixties 172's had a pretty good view of the engine compartment when you opened the cowling door.

Of course, it's not unique to Cessnas. Lots of planes don't give you much access. At least on the Cessnas you can decowl it without removing the prop.
 
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