First (real) no flap landing

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gcd89

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Greg D.
Preflight, flaps worked fine. Go out, go into slow flight...nothing. Come back to land and they still don't work. Get it on the ground, clear the runway and chack one last time and they work fine...

Overall I was very nervous about it, but managed to do it perfectly. But what was the deal with the flaps. 172 with motorized flaps...the circuit breaker wasn't popped...was it just a fluke. Either way, I'm okay, the plane is okay, and my flight instructor is okay, and I squaked it...but what do you think the reason is?
 
I wouldn't make a big flap over it hahahahaha.

Sorry.

Dunno, intermittent electrical problems suck.
 
I have no idea why the flaps didn't work in the air but I will say this about no flap landings- I did more than I can count early on in my training. I was so focused on a particular aspect of landing that I would sometimes forget to put down the flaps. My instructor would let me get away with it until half way down final he would say . Hmm I guess you are making this a no flap landing. I would just say - yep- and carry on. As you found out they are really no big deal. Especially for me as I I fly into airfields with long long runways. I think everyone should practice them during primary training.

BTW- at this point I have my pre-landing flow down pretty good so landing with flaps is how I do it.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I wouldn't make a big flap over it hahahahaha.

Sorry.

Dunno, intermittent electrical problems suck.
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Are we sure the problem is electrical and not mechanical? :dunno: I don't have the POH in front of me, so can't see the diagrams.
 
PBristolJr said:
Hell I don't use flaps 75% of the time in the one-fiddy.
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I only ever use 20* most of the time. I'd still like to know what the cause was though. I'm tihnking just a loose wire...not too much can go wrong in the 172 electrical system...
 
On one of the 172SP's I fly, I once had the flaps fail to come down more than a few degrees (maybe 5) during preflight. This was when I pushed the lever all the way down as per the check list. When I pushed the lever back up, the flaps went back to 0. I tried multiple times but they wouldn't go any further than a few degrees. Seemed like a mechanical jam. The plane flew earlier that day with no problems. I squalked it, but never found out what the problem is.
 
If it worked fine on the ground but not in the air, it's possible it's not able to develop enough power to operate against air loads for some reason. Could be a wiring issue not supplying sufficient power to the motor, or a slipping drag clutch.
 
My airplane doesn't even have flaps...:dunno:
 
It may be blasphemy to some CFIs, but the C-172 manual says, "Normal landing approaches can be made with power on or power off with any flap setting within the flap airspeed limits". It also says, "When landing in a strong crosswind, use the minimum flap setting required for the field length." [emphases added]

Student pilots should get instruction to be prepared to land the airplane in every permissible and/or recommended configuration; as well as in any configuration in which a reasonably-foreseeable systems failure might leave him. And a flap motor failure in an electric-flaps Cessna is very foreseeable.
 
It may have been a problem with the motor failing. Now, I do not know how the aircraft's flap system works, but on the ground the airplane had no relative wind stopping the flaps from extending, so with a very week(but still working) motor, the flaps would still extend, but in the air that increase in relative wind will create a force acting against flap extension, and the motor kicked on, tried to move the flaps, but the wind was overcoming the week motor. That is my take on it. But, I am no A&P.

CPI-ASEL
 
I have a Johnson bar on our 172, but I had a similar problem. One the ground, the flaps worked fine. In the air, I couldn't go past 10deg. Turned out the bearings were toast. On the ground, they could just slip along the guides. With the air pressure on it and the bearings not rolling, it was too much. New bearings and it all works great.
 
Hopefully you were taught how to slip. :dunno: For many years airplanes did not have flaps. Flaps are like power mirrors on a car...nice to have but not a big deal if they don't work.
 
Happened to me twice as a student (total electrical failure). Worked out that it wasn't a big deal, but I didn't like the situation that taught me that fact ;)
 
denverpilot said:
It really sucks to get them stuck at 40...
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Or one down and one up...

A long time ago in a place far away (not really, it was at KBJC) one of my bosses at the flying club where I was a CFI decided that he was going to give me a multiengine lesson. Weirdly I don't remember it being my idea but I went along with it. We took off in a Twin Comanche and did some airwork, steep turns, stalls, etc. On the recovery from the stall with full flaps I found myself holding a whole bunch of aileron. My first thought was that he had pulled an engine but we had never discussed single engine work and I had assumed we weren't going to do any. I also had some stick time flying a Twin Commander where the pilot had demonstrated an engine out and I remembered it being yaw and not roll. So I innocently said, "I think something is wrong..." He got this worried look and took the controls from me. I remember that he recycled the flaps and they either came up together or he left them both down. It's been so long ago I can't remember. I can still see that look on his face, though.
 
We had a similar problem on our 182. Flaps worked sometimes and not others. Turns out it was a bad microswitch that senses where the flaps are.
 
I hate no-flap landings in a PA28. The only way to pull it off is to approach a little slow. A normal 60 KIAS approach on a 2400 foot runway will eat quite a bit of it up due to float. It's not so bad when there is runway to spare, but I still prefer the extra drag from full flaps (so if I ever did have a flap problem, I'd land somewhere else if I could).

On a 172, I don't like the sight picture much, but I can get it down without flaps pretty comfortably.
 
MAKG1 said:
I hate no-flap landings in a PA28. The only way to pull it off is to approach a little slow. A normal 60 KIAS approach on a 2400 foot runway will eat quite a bit of it up due to float. It's not so bad when there is runway to spare, but I still prefer the extra drag from full flaps (so if I ever did have a flap problem, I'd land somewhere else if I could).

On a 172, I don't like the sight picture much, but I can get it down without flaps pretty comfortably.
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Really? How about coming in normally or a little high and slipping to landing? My Comanches would behave very well in slips and I would assume a Cherokee would too.
 
Threefingeredjack said:
Really? How about coming in normally or a little high and slipping to landing? My Comanches would behave very well in slips and I would assume a Cherokee would too.
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Cherokees (well, at least my Cherokee) slips quite well. Not much need for it though, just slow down and a Cherokee will drop like a rock. It's been called safe glide mode since it glides just about like a safe. Timing the round-out is a little bit of stress but not horrible - just don't expect too much as the energy goes away pretty quick. The plus side is the oleos absorb energy fairly well if ya drop it on from a couple feet. Just keep the nose up.
 
MAKG1 said:
I hate no-flap landings in a PA28. The only way to pull it off is to approach a little slow. A normal 60 KIAS approach on a 2400 foot runway will eat quite a bit of it up due to float. It's not so bad when there is runway to spare, but I still prefer the extra drag from full flaps (so if I ever did have a flap problem, I'd land somewhere else if I could).

On a 172, I don't like the sight picture much, but I can get it down without flaps pretty comfortably.
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Actually, this would be better stated as "don't approach too fast." If you're floating, you're too fast. Period. What's the weight-corrected stall speed for the PA28?

That being said, I almost always do my landings with full flaps to minimize ground speed.
 
gprellwitz said:
Actually, this would be better stated as "don't approach too fast." If you're floating, you're too fast. Period. What's the weight-corrected stall speed for the PA28?

That being said, I almost always do my landings with full flaps to minimize ground speed.
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It was about 47 KIAS clean when I measured it. POH said 50 (but of course that's at max gross).

Threefingeredjack, I don't see how slips help this problem, unless you're slipping in the flare. I'm not terribly comfy with that. I can get it down to the runway. I just float a lot more than I like without flaps. It floats hardly at all with full flaps, even at the same speed.
 
MAKG1 said:
I hate no-flap landings in a PA28. The only way to pull it off is to approach a little slow. A normal 60 KIAS approach on a 2400 foot runway will eat quite a bit of it up due to float. It's not so bad when there is runway to spare, but I still prefer the extra drag from full flaps (so if I ever did have a flap problem, I'd land somewhere else if I could).

On a 172, I don't like the sight picture much, but I can get it down without flaps pretty comfortably.
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That doesn't sound like a very good plan to me. No flap approaches should be faster than full flap approaches. Stall speed is higher. Sounds like you're consistently coming in too fast, but with no flaps you can't burn the speed off as quickly.
 
I'm having a hard time calling 60 KIAS too fast, but I agree, a slow approach is not a good idea. I hate these because I have to choose between a slow approach and a lot of float. I'd rather float down a much longer runway.
 
MAKG1 said:
It was about 47 KIAS clean when I measured it. POH said 50 (but of course that's at max gross).

Threefingeredjack, I don't see how slips help this problem, unless you're slipping in the flare. I'm not terribly comfy with that. I can get it down to the runway. I just float a lot more than I like without flaps. It floats hardly at all with full flaps, even at the same speed.
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MAKG1 said:
I'm having a hard time calling 60 KIAS too fast, but I agree, a slow approach is not a good idea. I hate these because I have to choose between a slow approach and a lot of float. I'd rather float down a much longer runway.
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Well, based on your numbers it's a little fast (1.2x47Kt is about 57Kt), but it's pretty close. Probably about as close as I can hold the airspeed, at any rate. What you're seeing is contrary to my expectations, so I'll be interested in what others have to say.
 
It's good practice! My first instructor was old school, started flying in the 1940s. First 20 or so landings that I did were no flap landings haha, he wouldn't let me use them.
 
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