Finally found a GREAT CFI

[SkyHog]

After 6 or 7 years of flying, and bouncing around from incompetent CFI to incompetent CFI, flying with CFIs that have no business taking my money since I'm often helping them more than they're helping me, I have finally found a great CFI. Up to this point, there had only been one other CFI I've flown with that impressed me and made me want to fly with them again....Tony Condon.

But I did a checkout with a CFI from KINT on Thursday night that added a second to that list.

So what makes a great CFI, IMHO? Knowing "why" something happens or "why" something is a rule, rather than just knowing that we are supposed to do things certain ways. I've jumped on CFIs before for the slips with flaps in Cessna issue, not because I'm a jerk, or I think I'm better than them, but because the complacency that causes that opinion to be fact in their mind stems from only doing what they heard is fact without finding out the "why" behind it.

This CFI and I hit it off. We were flying a Piper Arrow, and while flying around, everytime I asked a question, he went into the details behind why everything was happening. For example, we discussed engine out procedures, and whether to pull the prop back or leave it forward, because neither the checklist nor the POH specifies which way to go. I had felt that pulling it back would give a longer range, and he disagreed. We talked it through, and he was able to give some really compelling reasons to leave it forward. Most other CFIs would just say "Leave it forward because I was taught to leave it forward," or "Pull it back, that's what I was told."

That's a weak example, but the entire flight was full of those types of discussions. While doing the preflight W&B, we were able to talk together about why adding weight to certain moments would have the impact to the CG that it does....I haven't found a CFI yet that has that kind of knowledge....I suspect its because they just don't care to know. They just know how to get the numbers.

Seriously....I've not been this happy with a CFI since my dual flight with Tony Condon a few years ago. I hate to sound jaded, but honestly, if more CFIs were like this, I think aviation would be in a much better state.

 

[bbchien]

We knew about Condon long ago....

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Glad to hear it, Nick... Sounds like my kinda guy!

I've been helping a student pilot with some of the more technical aspects that she has questions about that her CFI's just don't know or care about. Not everyone wants to know those details, but for those who do, it sure would be nice if there were more CFI's like that.

I don't know what I'd do without the CFII I fly with. Great technical mind, is a huge systems geek, knows the details, and really challenges me. My last BFR/IPC was a 3.5-hour workout.

 

[jesse]

I do my best to provide the best instruction I can provide. The problem is that different people have different expectations of what the instructor should be. It's a hell of a lot easier to judge an instructor than to be one.

 

[TMetzinger]

I'd be interested in hearing why he recommended to leave the prop forward. The only reason I can think of is that is has the potential to keep more oil in the engine, but in the event of a serious oil leak you're going to be at fine pitch and seized engine eventually.

Now, when you're PRACTICING I can see leaving it forward as it creates the "worst case" situation, and it's one less thing to remember if you have to do a go-around. But in a real life failure, I think I'd pull it back. But I'd like to hear a good argument for doing otherwise.

 

[CJones]

I'd be interested in hearing why he recommended to leave the prop forward.

Ditto. Not to be argumentative, just curious. The Tony Condon you speak of had me practicing engine-outs once and we pulled the prop back and had a very noticeable change in glide performance. I'd be interesting to hear reasoning behind why not to pull the prop.

As a side note - glad to hear you found someone you like. I haven't even looked for one around here yet. I'll probably just commute to Tony sometime to get my BFR and IPC done. ha

 

[JesseD]

I do my best to provide the best instruction I can provide. The problem is that different people have different expectations of what the instructor should be. It's a hell of a lot easier to judge an instructor than to be one.

I paid a bit more for my previous instructor because we had longer pre/post flight time. I'm kind of a math / science geek so I like to know the "why" as well.

My current instructor is a better CFI when it comes to recognizing what I'm doing wrong inflight, but we don't go into the "why" something happens (science / math wise) nearly as often.

 

[denverpilot]

Maybe flight clubs need to hold speed dating luncheons for CFIs and students?

That voice is going to be in your head just as much as your spouse's...

 

[Dr. O]

So Nick, it appears to me that you are happy because you have finally found an instructor who agrees with you...
Out of curiosity, what rating are you working on?

cheers,

denny-o

 

[Everskyward]

The problem is that different people have different expectations of what the instructor should be. It's a hell of a lot easier to judge an instructor than to be one.

Agree. This is especially evident in a classroom situation. There will always be the person who asks all kinds of obscure, technical questions while the others are wanting to get it over with and go eat lunch. I think I'm somewhere in the middle. I am curious about many things but I'm mostly interested in the practical aspects of how things work, not in how they are designed internally.

Edit: I think this forum and others is heavily weighted towards pilots who like technical discussion, as opposed to the pilots in the general population. Why else would people come on an internet forum to read and discuss things of this nature?

 

[oldShar]

I'd be interested in hearing why he recommended to leave the prop forward.

I would also be curious. One of my instructors may also have been Nick's, but he never said anything either way. I decided to pull it back only because the R182, with the prop full forward, was like a brick compared to a 172 and I didn't think that was right.

 

[jesse]

I teach to leave the prop forward. You really need to approach engine out landings in a way that gives you options if you end up too short or too long.

If you set yourself up at best glide with the prop pulled back and end up short you are screwed as you removed any ability to extend your glide.

If you set yourself up with the prop full forward and end up too short you can pull the prop back and extend your glide. Watch how glider pilots land - you'll see that they have the ability to add or remove drag with their spoilers. Works almost like a throttle.

 

[TMetzinger]

I see your point, Jessie, but you might need the lesser drag while you're still up high and can take better advantage of the stronger winds.

I teach students to focus on being a little too high or too hot, because then they can employ "drag weapons" - flaps or slips or other things to dissipate the extra energy. You are correct that the prop is one thing you can do to REDUCE drag down low.

Like everything else in aviation - there's no "one" answer, and nothing so far convinces me that leaving the prop forward is inherently better than pulling it back. There may be situations where one choice is better than the other, and the wise airman will know the difference in drag and will make the appropriate choice based on the situation.

 

[SkyHog]

So Nick, it appears to me that you are happy because you have finally found an instructor who agrees with you...
Out of curiosity, what rating are you working on?

cheers,

denny-o

He actually disagreed with me on a lot of things, but was able to substantiate his stance in a way that made me think.

Its not the "techie" in me, guys, its the realist. Having had an instructor try to kill me with an overwieght Arrow on a short runway in high DA, having to use the hill to gain airspeed taught me that CFIs don't know everything, and blindly trusting anyone, CFI, DPE, or FAA employee is a bad idea.

Having a CFI that cares is all this is about. Is it harder to be a CFI than to judge one? Yes. Does that mean I should take a CFI that says "land at 3x VS1, its easier to avoid stalls" as an authority? No.

Am I realistic that most CFIs that read this glossed over and immediately went into "I'm a good CFI" defense mode and didn't actually read the point (thus proving the point)? Yes. God complex is strong with many CFIs (and pilots). If ONE CFI reads this and decides to think about why things happen, it will have benefitted a large number of oilots over his/her career.

You're all welcome.

 

[tonycondon]

Ditto. Not to be argumentative, just curious. The Tony Condon you speak of had me practicing engine-outs once and we pulled the prop back and had a very noticeable change in glide performance. I'd be interesting to hear reasoning behind why not to pull the prop.

As a side note - glad to hear you found someone you like. I haven't even looked for one around here yet. I'll probably just commute to Tony sometime to get my BFR and IPC done. ha

yea, if i remember it changed the glide on the -7 from Steinway to brick.

 

[dmccormack]

Having a CFI that cares is all this is about. Is it harder to be a CFI than to judge one? Yes. Does that mean I should take a CFI that says "land at 3x VS1, its easier to avoid stalls" as an authority? No.

Am I realistic that most CFIs that read this glossed over and immediately went into "I'm a good CFI" defense mode and didn't actually read the point (thus proving the point)? Yes. God complex is strong with many CFIs (and pilots). If ONE CFI reads this and decides to think about why things happen, it will have benefitted a large number of oilots over his/her career.

You're all welcome.

Sorry, Nick, but I (and five of my last CFIs) were "Why did that happen?" type LONG before earning the CFI.

It's great you found someone that fits you. Perhaps it took so long to find the right one because you have very specific requirements, and those requirements are not as broad as you suggest.

 

[Everskyward]

blindly trusting anyone, CFI, DPE, or FAA employee is a bad idea.

That only seems like common sense to me not some amazing revelation.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

I teach to leave the prop forward. You really need to approach engine out landings in a way that gives you options if you end up too short or too long.

If you set yourself up at best glide with the prop pulled back and end up short you are screwed as you removed any ability to extend your glide.

If you set yourself up with the prop full forward and end up too short you can pull the prop back and extend your glide. Watch how glider pilots land - you'll see that they have the ability to add or remove drag with their spoilers. Works almost like a throttle.

I hesitate to disagree with the "Best Pilot in the World®" but I tend to be a miser with my potential energy in an engine out situation. That would mean keeping the aircraft as slick as possible until I'm sure I'll make my chosen landing spot and then adding drag as needed.

I'm assuming that "prop forward" is fine pitch (I have all of one landing under my belt with a constant speed prop plane so I know little on this subject). Would that not be similar to adding 10° flaps in a C172 on the theory that I could pull them up later if needed to extend my glide?

 

[jesse]

I hesitate to disagree with the "Best Pilot in the World®" but I tend to be a miser with my potential energy in an engine out situation. That would mean keeping the aircraft as slick as possible until I'm sure I'll make my chosen landing spot and then adding drag as needed.

I'm assuming that "prop forward" is fine pitch (I have all of one landing under my belt with a constant speed prop plane so I know little on this subject). Would that not be similar to adding 10° flaps in a C172 on the theory that I could pull them up later if needed to extend my glide?

I'm talking about when the landing point is made Jack. I don't really push an airplane in an engine out situation. I pick a spot to put it down that I can make without any sort of question. How often do you find yourself stretching a glide the entire way to touchdown? Generally people pick something fairly close and then maneuver for it.

I do agree that if you really did need to stretch it a long distance then pulling the prop would be a good idea. But I would recommend you not do that unless you have to. It's much safer to pick something that you can without a doubt make then stretch something that you might not.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

I'm talking about when the landing point is made Jack. <SNIP>

I didn't catch that part- no argument there.

 

[TMetzinger]

I'm talking about when the landing point is made Jack. I don't really push an airplane in an engine out situation. I pick a spot to put it down that I can make without any sort of question. How often do you find yourself stretching a glide the entire way to touchdown? Generally people pick something fairly close and then maneuver for it.

I do agree that if you really did need to stretch it a long distance then pulling the prop would be a good idea. But I would recommend you not do that unless you have to. It's much safer to pick something that you can without a doubt make then stretch something that you might not.

No argument. Where I fly I'm often over rough terrain and/or water, and I need the airplane as clean as possible to maximize time to pick a spot to land and work the problem.

I wonder if we are doing our students a disservice if we only fail the engine down low. The lesson there is more about maintaining aircraft control while manuevering low than dealing with the failure. I'm going to make it a habit to fail my student's engine en route as well.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

No argument. Where I fly I'm often over rough terrain and/or water, and I need the airplane as clean as possible to maximize time to pick a spot to land and work the problem.

I wonder if we are doing our students a disservice if we only fail the engine down low. The lesson there is more about maintaining aircraft control while manuevering low than dealing with the failure. I'm going to make it a habit to fail my student's engine en route as well.

I figured you'd fail it enroute anyway, just to see if they noticed the airport they just flew over that would be a perfect landing spot.

The CFIs I flew with tended to be a touch sadistic, in keeping with Murphy's personality (bad things happen when you don't expect it). and I thank them for it.

 

[wabower]

That's because they're mostly computer nerds and dirty-underwear engineers. Just find me at the events and we can talk about stuff of interest to regular people.:wink2:

Agree. This is especially evident in a classroom situation. There will always be the person who asks all kinds of obscure, technical questions while the others are wanting to get it over with and go eat lunch. I think I'm somewhere in the middle. I am curious about many things but I'm mostly interested in the practical aspects of how things work, not in how they are designed internally.

Edit: I think this forum and others is heavily weighted towards pilots who like technical discussion, as opposed to the pilots in the general population. Why else would people come on an internet forum to read and discuss things of this nature?

 

[dmccormack]

I wonder if we are doing our students a disservice if we only fail the engine down low. The lesson there is more about maintaining aircraft control while manuevering low than dealing with the failure. I'm going to make it a habit to fail my student's engine en route as well.

Those long dual cross country flights are great opportunities for such exercises.

Reduced power ("hmmm, I think you threw a plug..?"), fuel exhaustion, blocked fuel port, icing -- all are realistic scenarios that can force the emergency action juices.

 

[Missa]

I hear you Nick! I've been trying to find a good CFI around here and I finally threw in the towel and drove 8 hours back to Michigan to go do my BFR with my old instructor. Some people are just lucky that a really great instructor is in the hanger next to them (LIZ!) even if the airport is on a muddy dirt road. lol.

It was a great weekend.