Ferrous material in oil filter, how much is too much?

psween

psween

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psween
Just did the first oil change on the new to me 150, and wonder if I should be concerned. Oil analysis showed high iron and copper, but that alone doesn't particularly bother me, since I don't have trends yet to follow and the airplane was likely sitting for indeterminate times before the sale. When I cut the filter though, I found about 1/16 tsp of fine ferrous particles. The quantity isn't huge, and the oil change interval was long, but I haven't looked in a filter for 13 years, so not sure what should concern me. My plan was to fly another 10 to 15 hours on this oil change, then I'll be due for annual anyway and will check filter and sample oil again. Am I being foolish? My biggest concern is cam lobes or lifters disintegrating. None of the particles is large (more like iron dust). Engine is O-200A for those that didn't guess. About 1150 SMOH, and 500 since new Continental cylinders. Thanks for any advice.

Patrick
 
psween said:
Just did the first oil change on the new to me 150, and wonder if I should be concerned. Oil analysis showed high iron and copper, but that alone doesn't particularly bother me, since I don't have trends yet to follow and the airplane was likely sitting for indeterminate times before the sale. When I cut the filter though, I found about 1/16 tsp of fine ferrous particles. The quantity isn't huge, and the oil change interval was long, but I haven't looked in a filter for 13 years, so not sure what should concern me. My plan was to fly another 10 to 15 hours on this oil change, then I'll be due for annual anyway and will check filter and sample oil again. Am I being foolish? My biggest concern is cam lobes or lifters disintegrating. None of the particles is large (more like iron dust). Engine is O-200A for those that didn't guess. About 1150 SMOH, and 500 since new Continental cylinders. Thanks for any advice.

Patrick
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If the oil pressure is good the pump's ok.
Drain the oil, flush the tank(really good) fill with phillips 20W50, and fly. :)
If it happens again, pull the engine send it to an overhauler. it will cost some where between $12-&-20K.
 
Didn't flush the tank at oil change, but oil pressure is good from idle all the way up, so not too worried about the pump. Oil changed with Phillips 20w50 with CamGuard. Due to the sale and the flight home the oil had over 50 hours on it (was Phillips 20w50 already, but no CamGuard) when it was changed. The particles are magnetic though, so not rust. All other signs show a healthy enough engine, static RPM good, temps normal, compressions normal, oil consumption low normal, so it doesn't sound like I'm being foolhardy to continue flying and see what it looks like with 10 more hours. Thanks,

Patrick
 
Probably iron from cylinders and rings that became corroded as it sat, or the previous owner did ground runs only and introduced lots of moisture to the case. It might settle down. The copper is from either the bronze rocker bushings, valve guides, or main and rod bearing underlay. I'd bet on the rocker bushings or guides. To get copper off bearing underlay would require badly worn bearings, and the oil pressure would be poor.
 
Yep, if copper from bearings, you'd have a lot of aluminum too.
 
I can buy the iron in the oil analysis being from corrosion, but correct me if I'm wrong, wouldn't the particles I found have to be wear, not corrosion, since they are magnetic? Ferric oxide (rust) would still show as iron at the spectrographic level, but is not magnetic. Ferrous oxide or pure steel/iron particles from wear should be magnetic. Unless the heat in a running engine is enough to convert ferric to ferrous, which I suppose might be possible. This is all based on chemistry classes that I took quite a long time ago, so not sure I'm remembering right. I'm probably overthinking this whole thing, maybe everything will be back to more normal levels now with regular flying every few days.

Patrick
 
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Interesting, the particles I have look just like the Fe3O4, gray/black iron oxide. Not sure if that's useful to me or not, but still interesting. I guess I assumed corrosion in steel parts in the engine would be traditional red rust, which I thought was pretty much non-magnetic, but maybe not. It appears the A&P along with the engineer in me is not that useful without some serious metallurgy knowledge in the mix. I don't think it changes my approach, but learn something every day!

Patrick
 
Hang a magnet in the sump. or attach one to the lower portion of the sump near the bottom on the outside.
collect those particles prior to them getting into the oil system and attacking the crank.

I've even seen owners magnetize their dipsticks
 
I'm running a Tempest oil filter with the internal magnet, but didn't notice it had caught much when I cut it. Maybe more marketing value than actual protection?
 
psween said:
I can buy the iron in the oil analysis being from corrosion, but correct me if I'm wrong, wouldn't the particles I found have to be wear, not corrosion, since they are magnetic? Ferric oxide (rust) would still show as iron at the spectrographic level, but is not magnetic. Ferrous oxide or pure steel/iron particles from wear should be magnetic. Unless the heat in a running engine is enough to convert ferric to ferrous, which I suppose might be possible. This is all based on chemistry classes that I took quite a long time ago, so not sure I'm remembering right. I'm probably overthinking this whole thing, maybe everything will be back to more normal levels now with regular flying every few days.

Patrick
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Iron oxide is magnetic. It's the stuff used on recording tape. Corroded iron or steel leaves rough, raised surfaces that get shaved off when things start moving against each other. Cam and lifters, rings and cylinders, gear teeth.
 
psween said:
I'm running a Tempest oil filter with the internal magnet, but didn't notice it had caught much when I cut it. Maybe more marketing value than actual protection?
Click to expand...
put one in the sump.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Iron oxide is magnetic. It's the stuff used on recording tape. Corroded iron or steel leaves rough, raised surfaces that get shaved off when things start moving against each other. Cam and lifters, rings and cylinders, gear teeth.
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example,,,, see first post.
 
If it was mine.. I would change the oil, fly another 10hrs and re-evaluate.
 
Tom-D said:
Hang a magnet in the sump. or attach one to the lower portion of the sump near the bottom on the outside.
collect those particles prior to them getting into the oil system and attacking the crank.

I've even seen owners magnetize their dipsticks
Click to expand...

Hmm. Lots of motorcycles have the drain plug magnetized and I've seen magnets attached to oil pans on cars. Seems a good idea to get some of the particles out of the flow. It would change the results of an oil analysis though.
 
I'm not sure where the drain plug is on an O-200 but some (like mine) are not at the bottom of the pan. They're slightly elevated on one side of the pan. Thus, no matter how much you flush the engine, all the residue/shavings will still be sitting on the bottom of the pan unless you remove it and clean it manually.

When my engine started making metal, per recommendations here, I flushed it with solvent...ran 5 gallons thru it 3 or 4 times. The solvent poured thru a paint filter cone as it exited the oil pan/plug. I caught nothing in the filter...flushed nothing out.

Yet, when we tore it down for overhaul, I was amazed at the amount a crap that was sitting in the bottom of the pan, including a piece of steel about 3" long, coiled like an orange peel.

I'll be figuring out a way to inspect the bottom of the pan every 300 hours or so...even if it involves pulling it.
 
timwinters said:
I'm not sure where the drain plug is on an O-200 but some (like mine) are not at the bottom of the pan. They're slightly elevated on one side of the pan. Thus, no matter how much you flush the engine, all the residue/shavings will still be sitting on the bottom of the pan unless you remove it and clean it manually.

When my engine started making metal, per recommendations here, I flushed it with solvent...ran 5 gallons thru it 3 or 4 times. The solvent poured thru a paint filter cone as it exited the oil pan/plug. I caught nothing in the filter...flushed nothing out.

Yet, when we tore it down for overhaul, I was amazed at the amount a crap that was sitting in the bottom of the pan, including a piece of steel about 3" long, coiled like an orange peel.

I'll be figuring out a way to inspect the bottom of the pan every 300 hours or so...even if it involves pulling it.
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The 0-200 and all the C-series continentals have the sump plug at the bottom of the sump.
use a bore scope to inspect the sump.
 
Like Tom said, the oil reservoir on this engine is a oval or kidney shaped tank that hangs below the engine and the drain is pretty much at the bottom. I do have a quick drain fitting that may make it less likely to get ALL the oil and crud out.

I'm certainly leaning towards corrosion from irregular use during the last couple of years. Will proceed with the next 10 hours and evaluate again at annual. Thanks for all the info, learned some new stuff along the way.
 
psween said:
Didn't flush the tank at oil change, but oil pressure is good from idle all the way up, so not too worried about the pump. Oil changed with Phillips 20w50 with CamGuard. Due to the sale and the flight home the oil had over 50 hours on it (was Phillips 20w50 already, but no CamGuard) when it was changed.
Click to expand...

Just a quick point: Camguard is useful when engines are sitting for a long time. It isn't designed to make any difference if the engine is being run a lot nor in preventing wear and tear during operation. It's designed to prevent corrosion during the extended periods between flight in airplanes that sit a lot.
 
rwellner98 said:
Just a quick point: Camguard is useful when engines are sitting for a long time.
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I have three customers that use it, 2 in 0-470s and 1 in a 0-200, they say there seems to be no effect to their maintenance one way or the other.
 
CamGuard may or may not help, but for the small increase in the cost of an oil change I'll keep using it. There may be times it sits for a bit longer, so it's some peace of mind then.
 
Negative....although most benefit from inactivity but Camguard also improves lubrication, cleans carbon deposits between rings, rejuvenates seals and improves surface tension qualities allowing lube to coat and remain in surface contact longer.

rwellner98 said:
Just a quick point: Camguard is useful when engines are sitting for a long time. It isn't designed to make any difference if the engine is being run a lot nor in preventing wear and tear during operation. It's designed to prevent corrosion during the extended periods between flight in airplanes that sit a lot.
Click to expand...
 
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If you are flying the engine regularly and feel the need for (no, not speed) foo foo juice consider AvBlend. A much higher class of foo foo juice than camguard which is just a garden variety of foo foo juice.
Now if the engine is not run regularly then camguard - or better yet, a partner who will fly it once a week and save you big bucks over having a rusty cam.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
Negative....although most benefit from inactivity but Camguard also improves lubrication, cleans carbon deposits between rings, rejuvenates seals and improves surface tension qualities allowing lube to coat and remain in surface contact longer.
Click to expand...
You read the label too. :)
 
sump drain on a 0-200
 

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