Federal Court Decision: Flight training is carrying passengers for hire

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by flyingron, Apr 20, 2021.

  1. Llewtrah381

    Llewtrah381 Pre-takeoff checklist PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2010
    Messages:
    322

    Display name:
    Llewtrah
    LOL -riiight…and the only outcome will be to gridlock the process for those who legitimately need one.

    “We’ll show YOU, FAA!”

    016A412A-2AD1-4373-8D10-BFBD1B151B7E.jpeg
     
    Doc Holliday and Palmpilot like this.
  2. AKBill

    AKBill En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2014
    Messages:
    3,502
    Location:
    Juneau, AK

    Display name:
    AKBill
    Joy rides or not it is still training/instruction
     
  3. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    2,240
    Location:
    Tombstone

    Display name:
    Doc Holliday
    Using that analogy one could fly someone point a to point b and to avoid part 135 just call it “training/instruction”.
     
  4. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    9,141
    Location:
    FL

    Display name:
    Salty
    Well, the point is everyone of them will now legitimately need one.
     
  5. Llewtrah381

    Llewtrah381 Pre-takeoff checklist PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2010
    Messages:
    322

    Display name:
    Llewtrah
    LOL - sorry but several reductio ad absurdum thoughts come to mind here. Like “joy ride or not prostitution is still training/instruction”
     
    Doc Holliday likes this.
  6. AKBill

    AKBill En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2014
    Messages:
    3,502
    Location:
    Juneau, AK

    Display name:
    AKBill
    What about point a to point a
     
  7. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    2,240
    Location:
    Tombstone

    Display name:
    Doc Holliday
    Not sure what point you’re trying to make.

    But the reason this situation has come to the surface deals in the providers selling something under one description and then providing something else.
     
  8. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    5,659
    Location:
    North Carolina once again.

    Display name:
    Tarheelpilot
    It’s to bad the FAA was to lazy to make that case and ****ed everyone else in the process.
     
  9. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    2,240
    Location:
    Tombstone

    Display name:
    Doc Holliday
    How so?
     
  10. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Messages:
    4,507
    Location:
    North Texas

    Display name:
    Lindberg
    It doesn't say that though.
     
    Doc Holliday likes this.
  11. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    5,659
    Location:
    North Carolina once again.

    Display name:
    Tarheelpilot
    You either get it or you don’t.
     
  12. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    2,240
    Location:
    Tombstone

    Display name:
    Doc Holliday
    You can either explain your position or you can’t.
     
    Brad Z, Palmpilot and G-Man like this.
  13. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    5,659
    Location:
    North Carolina once again.

    Display name:
    Tarheelpilot
    I’m not willing to explain it to you. Has nothing to do with my ability to explain it to you.
     
  14. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    2,240
    Location:
    Tombstone

    Display name:
    Doc Holliday
    :rolleyes:
     
  15. AKBill

    AKBill En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2014
    Messages:
    3,502
    Location:
    Juneau, AK

    Display name:
    AKBill
    I understand what you are saying. My point was it does not seem like they are traveling point a to point b. Instruction/training for a pilot is different than a non pilot IMHO. Flying something like a war bird would be a real learning experience for me as someone who holds a PPL
     
    Jim K likes this.
  16. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    2,240
    Location:
    Tombstone

    Display name:
    Doc Holliday
    It may be a learning experience, but again, these type of operators were using it as a vehicle to give essentially joy rides.
     
    AKBill likes this.
  17. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    10,273
    Location:
    Wichita, KS

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    Joy rides for hire.
     
    Llewtrah381 and Doc Holliday like this.
  18. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    5,659
    Location:
    North Carolina once again.

    Display name:
    Tarheelpilot
    :rolleyes:
     
  19. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    19,505
    Location:
    PUDBY

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
    I can just see it now: "Your honor, you either get it or you don't." :rofl:
     
    Doc Holliday likes this.
  20. Arnold

    Arnold Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2005
    Messages:
    1,406
    Location:
    Philadelphia Area

    Display name:
    Arnold
    That happens often.
     
  21. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    2,240
    Location:
    Tombstone

    Display name:
    Doc Holliday
    Agreed. Doesn't make it right though.

    Creative work arounds to avoid compliance with regulation often lead to what was brought up in the OP.
     
  22. Ravioli

    Ravioli Ejection Handle Pulled PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Messages:
    8,024
    Location:
    Somewhere else

    Display name:
    Unwanted Guest - Perma-ban Pending
    @Doc Holliday - Similar but different scenario.

    Lady in her 60's always wanted to learn to fly. She's not good with "tests" (written) and terrified of the Checkride (oral and performance tests).

    But she pays for her instruction as a student, may even get the 3rd Class and do some solo, but really is a flying tourist.

    Is she joy riding or receiving instruction?

    Now then - war bird land
    Are they getting instruction or joy riding? I don't know. Never taken their "lesson".

    I'm not disputing with the rule or the "implementation". Just saying, there may be some gray space there.
     
  23. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    2,240
    Location:
    Tombstone

    Display name:
    Doc Holliday
    Of course it's gray, that's why it was being exploited.

    Now the FAA want's to clarify the gray area, and people are upset.
     
    Ravioli likes this.
  24. Seanaldinho

    Seanaldinho Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    1,848
    Location:
    Redneck Riveria

    Display name:
    Charlie Yankee
    Is someone getting a DC-3 type rating, "just to have it / for fun" receiving instruction or joy riding?

    /s
     
  25. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    2,240
    Location:
    Tombstone

    Display name:
    Doc Holliday
    The DC3 type is a certification event. Were the recipients of the P40 training receiving any type of certification for their training? Was the training program the P40 operator was using an approved (FAA) program? Or if Part 61, did they as a company have a training outline and a specific documentation criteria? Or did the customer just show up, pay the money, get the "training" and a logbook entry and go on their way?
     
    Lindberg and Kritchlow like this.
  26. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    9,141
    Location:
    FL

    Display name:
    Salty
    I think it's more apt to say the FAA threw red paint all over the gray area, and negatively effected a far larger number of people that weren't abusing the system, than the few that were abusing the system, and people are upset. They used a Nuke to get rid of a squirrel stealing their nuts.

    This image describes the FAA actions better than it does my suggestion.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2021
    Jim K, Half Fast and Tarheelpilot like this.
  27. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    2,240
    Location:
    Tombstone

    Display name:
    Doc Holliday
    How so?

    I read the letter and they defined their position, then offered regulatory relief and an alternate means of compliance for those wishing to continue giving instruction. The letter concluded saying the agency was working on ways to streamline the process (LODA or exemption} and would be providing follow up information in an upcoming policy statement.
     
  28. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    5,659
    Location:
    North Carolina once again.

    Display name:
    Tarheelpilot
    Less FAA. That would be cool.
     
    hindsight2020 likes this.
  29. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    2,240
    Location:
    Tombstone

    Display name:
    Doc Holliday
    How so?
     
  30. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    10,273
    Location:
    Wichita, KS

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    The way most of us are reading things,
    Scenario 1: if I owned an RV-8 or a P-40, long-standing FAA interpretation is that I can hire an instructor to give me instruction; but
    Scenario 2: if I want to give instruction in my RV-8 or P-40, I would need a LODA to do that.

    Under this interpretation, I now need a LODA in both scenarios.

    And it reaches beyond that, but I don’t want to confuse the issue too much. ;)
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2021
  31. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    5,659
    Location:
    North Carolina once again.

    Display name:
    Tarheelpilot
    ROC will not allow us to discuss the matter here.
     
  32. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    2,240
    Location:
    Tombstone

    Display name:
    Doc Holliday
    So yet another broad sweeping statement with no content.

    Got it.
     
  33. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    2,240
    Location:
    Tombstone

    Display name:
    Doc Holliday
    Understood.

    But aren't some missing the main issue as to how it has arrived at this point?

    Also, again, the letter does give a path for limited and experimental to continue instruction, and even states they are working on a streamlined process.
     
  34. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    5,659
    Location:
    North Carolina once again.

    Display name:
    Tarheelpilot
    Yeah. Because it has to be or I’ll get the ban hammer. Ask me how I know. After 10 years enjoying the conversations here I can recognize bans and statists from a distance and have learned when to keep my mouth shut. If this gives you confidence in your position or makes you think there is no substance to my position that would be the confidence found in ignorance.
     
  35. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    28,701
    Location:
    Land of Savages

    Display name:
    steingar
    I have a violently strong suspicion that if the folks who started this whole brouhaha were actually in the business of giving warbird instruction the FAA would have never bothered with them.
     
    Lindberg and Dana like this.
  36. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    2,240
    Location:
    Tombstone

    Display name:
    Doc Holliday
    I'll just stick with my comment as you keep proving my point. ;)
     
  37. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    5,659
    Location:
    North Carolina once again.

    Display name:
    Tarheelpilot
    I agree. Their intentional violation of the spirit of the rules is pretty clear. The FAA response was inappropriate in my opinion. The letter from the CC office was a double down of a bad hand.
     
  38. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    5,659
    Location:
    North Carolina once again.

    Display name:
    Tarheelpilot
    Only in your head.
     
  39. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    10,273
    Location:
    Wichita, KS

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    I don’t think anyone is arguing the main issue as to how it arrived at this point, and streamlining the process will be necessary, as now a large percentage of experimental category aircraft owners will need a LODA.

    As the alphabets pointed out initially, this court decision goes far beyond the actual main issue. Besides changing the things in my previous post, it also prohibits any Sport Pilot instructor who does not hold at least a commercial certificate from giving instruction.
     
    DaleB likes this.
  40. TonyG

    TonyG Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2013
    Messages:
    50

    Display name:
    TonyG
    An actual example: I've got a TW student (private cert and instrument rating, but relatively low time) in the process of buying an RV-4. He got a deposit in before the June 4 letter. So now he's looking at 3 choices:
    1. Fly his new-to-him airplane with no instruction in RVs. (A bad idea, and he's not likely to do this.)
    2. Find an operation with an existing LODA that will provide instruction in an RV (he's beating the bushes on this, but even before this letter, the guy that works closely with Van's was booked out to October.)
    3. Apply for a LODA himself. (We'll start working this, but... a: he doesn't own the airplane yet, and b: how long do you think THAT will take? A year? Who knows. The FSDO has been working some very basic paperwork for me - just reissuing an airworthiness certificate as the signature is nearly faded - and we're 2 1/2 years in. Doesn't build confidence in "streamlined processes".)
    So, too bad for this guy.

    But note that it's only his good decisionmaking that deters him from 1) above. The FAA letter of June 4 sure adds pressure in the unsafe direction.

    The guys selling the P-40 rides caused a crap-ton of trouble, and IMHO should've been stopped, but the FAA seems to have really "tripped on their own shoelaces", as some earlier poster said. Hard to argue that this TW student isn't an innocent bystander that got red paint splashed all over him....
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2021