Fascinating dietary statistics

Probably no secret that vegetarians are healthier.

I've also heard that increased sugar consumption is really responsible for the obesity epidemic rather that meats, fats, etc.
 
Faulty "Feel Good" presentation ==>

Starts with a conclusion
Then builds/presents data to support conclusion

Very political and typical of modern activist protocol activity
 
dans2992 said:
Probably no secret that vegetarians are healthier.
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The cows I eat are vegetarian, so does that mean I am too?

A friend of mine, vegan, strict daily exercise, extreme outdoor everything, the image of perfect health. Dead, age 31. Approximately 90% blockage in all arteries of the heart.

My Uncle Lewis. WWII vet, drinker of whiskey, smoker all his life, over weight, no exercise after military. Dead, age 83. Injuries from car accident.

I understand both examples here are not the norm.
 
oldShar said:
Faulty "Feel Good" presentation ==>

Starts with a conclusion
Then builds/presents data to support conclusion

Very political and typical of modern activist protocol activity
Click to expand...

You hardly strike me as without bias yourself. But that's good if you can refute the "facts", so enlighten me please.

dtuuri
 
Jim Logajan said:
There is a row missing from the table on page 4 that compares the diet of 1900 with that of 2010. Here is the missing row:

----------------- 1900 2010
Life Expectancy: 47 --- 78

Conclusion: sugar and refined foods lead to longer lives. :D
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That's odd, then. I can't seem to find sugar deficiency as a leading cause of death in the 1900s: http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/4fe65ccc69bedd0b1b000000-1200/death-rates-1900-and-2010.png

Article here: http://www.businessinsider.com/leading-causes-of-death-from-1900-2010-2012-6?op=1

dtuuri
 
You can make all sorts of correlations with statistics, but they're constantly either being found inconsistent or outright wrong. Take the salt issues.

Vegan or vegetarian diet is no better if you don't make the right choices. There's not particularly anything wrong with meat either if proportional.
 
T+BONE+STEAK.jpg


YUM!
 
The thing I have trouble figuring is why do I want to avoid the leading cause of death when it isn't a particularly unpleasant way to go? What advantage do I stand by trying to aim for one of the alternatives? I can say for sure arthritis is a much less pleasant end, can't say for sure with Alzheimer's at the first person perspective since it's pretty difficult to have a meaningful conversation, but I know the families would think a nice heart attack to be a relief. Strokes, and many years of general decrepitude don't sound particularly appealing either. Heck, good chance one of the various forms of cancer will take me before heart disease, which outside of cholesterol numbers, I show no sign of (score zero on the calcium heart scan). God knows I've come into prolonged contact with a plethora of substances known by the state of California to cause cancer and have worked in heavy industry all my life.

The fact of the matter is, we all die, and when and how is unknown if predetermined, but even if not, it is still inevitable.
 
Henning said:
The thing I have trouble figuring is why do I want to avoid the leading cause of death when it isn't a particularly unpleasant way to go? What advantage do I stand by trying to aim for one of the alternatives? I can say for sure arthritis is a much less pleasant end, can't say for sure with Alzheimer's at the first person perspective since it's pretty difficult to have a meaningful conversation, but I know the families would think a nice heart attack to be a relief. Strokes, and many years of general decrepitude don't sound particularly appealing either. Heck, good chance one of the various forms of cancer will take me before heart disease, which outside of cholesterol numbers, I show no sign of (score zero on the calcium heart scan). God knows I've come into prolonged contact with a plethora of substances known by the state of California to cause cancer and have worked in heavy industry all my life.

The fact of the matter is, we all die, and when and how is unknown if predetermined, but even if not, it is still inevitable.
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Heart disease is not usually a pleasant way to go. You are thinking of sudden cardiac death. This is almost always the result of a fast ventricular rhythm which can be a very good way to go although it can be preceded by up to an hour of crushing chest pain (although usually just minutes). This occurs in a fairly small subset of those with coronary artery disease. Many people with coronary artery disease develop congestive heart failure and this is often an ugly way to die.
 
Gary F said:
Heart disease is not usually a pleasant way to go. You are thinking of sudden cardiac death. This is almost always the result of a fast ventricular rhythm which can be a very good way to go although it can be preceded by up to an hour of crushing chest pain (although usually just minutes). This occurs in a fairly small subset of those with coronary artery disease. Many people with coronary artery disease develop congestive heart failure and this is often an ugly way to die.
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Can it be sped up with a suitable dose of cocaine and hookers? Work out a Kevorkianesque "Cum and Go" package?
 
Gary F said:
I doesn't. There might be more exciting ways to go like flying a powered parachute into a thunderstorm.
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Yep, although it would be a cold option, so not likely one I'd choose, although hypoxia would likely have it so one wouldn't notice. Thing is, people actually survived doing just this, so it's not particularly reliable.

Not so sure how exciting I want death to be, I've had a life with plenty. A nice heroin nod out with my head in a girl's lap while watching Futurama would be quite alright by me.
 
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:yes:
Henning said:
Yep, although it would be a cold option, so not likely one I'd choose, although hypoxia would likely have it so one wouldn't notice. Thing is, people actually survived doing just this, so it's not particularly reliable.

Not so sure how exciting I want death to be, I've had a life with plenty. A nice heroin nod out with my head in a girl's lap while watching Futurama would be quite alright by me.
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:yes:
 
Thanks for reminding me how much I hate PowerPoint presentations.

As for the content, I think it's basically propaganda. I suspect the author is an ethical vegan who is trying to drum up some "scientific" evidence to support her lifestyle choice.

Part of the problem with approaches like this is that comparing people who have been on any sort of diet for most of their lives to the general population is inherently biased. For example, the studies of long-term Atkins adherents also revealed that they were healthier than average -- as would be pretty much any group of people who cared enough about their health to stick to a diet for decades on end.

What I mean is that whether you stick to Atkins, Paleo, a vegan diet, or whatever other diets are out there, you're doing so because you're concerned about your health. That biases the study because it's comparing people who are actively living a lifestyle chosen for its health benefits, regardless of the specifics, with people who are not.

That being said, I think it's pretty obvious that sugar, excess fats, and refined foods in general are poisons, and that fresh fruits and vegetables are healthy. I doubt too many people would argue against that.

In my own case, by simply cutting sugar, empty carbs, and processed foods out of my diet -- and doing little else -- I've lost 25 pounds in less than five months, knocked my average FBG from ~160 to ~110, my A1C from 7.5 to 6.3, and my waist size from 42 to 38. I'm hoping to lose another ~25 by the end of the year, without starving myself.

I call my diet "Nonna's diet." "Nonna" is Italian for "Grandma," and I basically eat like Nonna did. She ate what she wanted, drank what she wanted, couldn't spell "cholesterol" in either language, and lived well into her 80's. But everything that she ate, she prepared from scratch, from fresh ingredients. I doubt she'd even consider most of the crap they sell in supermarkets these days to be "food." Merda, yes. Food, no.

So I guess you can call what I'm doing the "What Would Nonna Eat?" diet. Maybe I should get wristbands made with "WWNE" stamped on them. Hey, you never know -- it could take off. I know it's working for me.

-Rich
 
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RJM62 said:
That being said, I think it's pretty obvious that sugar, excess fats, and refined foods in general are poisons, and that fresh fruits and vegetables are healthy. I doubt too many people would argue against that.
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I would argue against that - it's anything but obvious.

Sugar is not poison. I'm about to go eat some Necco wafers. I suspect I will not be poisoned.

Excess fats may, by definition, be excessive. Still not poison.

I eat a fair amount of refined foods - never been poisoned by them to date.

I guess you may be using the word "poison" for dramatic effect. But some things really are poison, so it's probably best to reserve the word for those things.

My wife, Karen, feeds me well - lots of vegetables and a smaller amount of fruit (I'm just not real big on fruit). Part of what matched us on eHarmony was that we were both vegetarians. No meat, but we don't go overboard avoiding some of life's simple pleasures.

All things in moderation.
 
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FastEddieB said:
All things in moderation.
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Yup. I type this as I am eating fruit yogurt which I'm sure has been sweetened in some way.

I agree that excess sugar is probably bad and that it also depends on your own physiology how it affects you. But if sugar is poison I would have been gone a long time ago.
 
RJM62 said:
For example, the studies of long-term Atkins adherents also revealed that they were healthier than average -- as would be pretty much any group of people who cared enough about their health to stick to a diet for decades on end.
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I've not seen any "long-term" studies of Atkins dieters, certainly not that reversed heart disease like Esslestyn and Ornish. Can you point me to them?

dtuuri
 
FastEddieB said:
I would argue against that - it's anything but obvious.

Sugar is not poison. I'm about to go eat some Necco wafers. I suspect I will not be poisoned.
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In doses typically consumed simple sugars are often toxic.
FastEddieB said:
Excess fats may, by definition, be excessive. Still not poison.

I eat a fair amount of refined foods - never been poisoned by them to date.

I guess you may be using the word "poison" for dramatic effect. But some things really are poison, so it's probably best to reserve the word for those things.
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It depends on the fat but the even the risk of saturated fat may be overstated based on flawed decades old research.
FastEddieB said:
My wife, Karen, feeds me well - lots of vegetables and a smaller amount of fruit (I'm just not real big on fruit). Part of what matched us on eHarmony was that we were both vegetarians. No meat, but we don't go overboard avoiding some of life's simple pleasures.

All things in moderation.
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It depends on the mix of vegetables. Sugar beets are not your friend but I believe a vegan diet can be much more healthful than the typical diet if you consume the right amount and mix of plant based foods.
 
Everskyward said:
Yup. I type this as I am eating fruit yogurt which I'm sure has been sweetened in some way.

I agree that excess sugar is probably bad and that it also depends on your own physiology how it affects you. But if sugar is poison I would have been gone a long time ago.
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Lol, no kidding, I've been sustaining myself off it for all my life. I toss in a good portion of meat, and drink a fair amount of juice, but most of my daily caloric intake for at least the last 40 years has come in the form of candy, chocolate, and the large volumes of sugar I put in my coffee. My forays into the vegetable bin usually stays with carrots and tomatoes. Also love nuts and get fiber through decent cereals. I'm not svelte, but I'm far from obese, 6' and 10lbs over the FAA average 175 with 3lbs in my pockets, my BP is typically 112/60 ish, I have high cholesterol numbers, but have a calcium heart scan score of zero. If it's poison, it sure is a slow acting one.
 
FastEddieB said:
Define "toxic" in this context.

The half roll of Necco Wafers I ate in bed last night had no effect on me I would define as "toxic".

I will stipulate sugar toxicity for diabetics. For others, I just don't see it.
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Don't be so sure. If simple sugars are not consumed by muscle immediately as the result of high metabolic demand they increase insulin levels which has several adverse effects. For diabetics increased blood sugar levels have significant long term consequences including kidney failure, blindness and (gasp) erectile dysfunction. I don't have the time to explain the biochemical mechanisms of high insulin and glucose levels but I see the consequences on blood vessels every day I'm at work.
 
Interesting info and like every presentation you need to absorb and process where it came from and what the actual content is compared to similar or contradicting information. I currently have high BP and cholesterol and statins are not my friend so I absorb what I can and make changes to diet where it makes sense.

My wife is finishing her studies to become a health diet coach and my daughter is going to grad school for a master in health arts & sciences with under grad in psychology ( living at home) So my household has become this testing ground for all kinds of paleo vegetarian natural gastrosceintific nutritional creations.

They have 4 gardens and the farmers market is a weekly Saturday morning ritual and only buy the hormone free meat and poultry direct from local sources along with eggs that come from happy hippie chickens.

They do what the do and I am the test subject. But out of all this I can tell you that the biggest change came from cutting out refined sugar...it's in everything so it's tough but when I did I lost 15 pounds in the first week and increased my energy 3 fold. This may not sound like a big deal but I went from 180 to 165 without doing anything else different so I wasn't a big guy to start with.
Same exercise same alcohol consumption just no sugar ( except natural like in fruits ).

Now let's see what it does for my cholesterol in another month....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
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For many of us, choosing a diet can't be done in a vacuum. Our culture and history is tied to a diet. Our holidays, traditions, family ties, are all centered around food. Deciding to become vegan is the equivalent of shaving your head and jointing the Krishna's.

That aspect is so often ignored by the 80lb. M.S. dietician types who exist in recycled, green peace, metro-sexual, microcosm.
 
Alexb2000 said:
For many of us, choosing a diet can't be done in a vacuum. Our culture and history is tied to a diet. Our holidays, traditions, family ties, are all centered around food. Deciding to become vegan is the equivalent of shaving your head and jointing the Krishna's.

That aspect is so often ignored by the 80lb. M.S. dietician types who exist in recycled, green peace, metro-sexual, microcosm.
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Give in to peer pressure much? All my friends and family eat(garbage) and drink plenty, I don't. If you are going to be better then average you will be judged, get used to it, or be the fat average of your friends and family.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Give in to peer pressure much? All my friends and family eat(garbage) and drink plenty, I don't. If you are going to be better then average you will be judged, get used to it, or be the fat average of your friends and family.
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I'm not talking about peer pressure to stuff down a bowl of Cheetos with your beer drinking buddies. I'm talking about going to Christmas dinner with all of your family, telling your mother who worked for a week to prepare the meal that you will be having only dry salad, and breaking her heart. I don't know your background but that is a real issue for many of us.

Maybe that's your definition of weak minded, IDK.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I'm not talking about peer pressure to stuff down a bowl of Cheetos with your beer drinking buddies. I'm talking about going to Christmas dinner with all of your family, telling your mother who worked for a week to prepare the meal that you will be having only dry salad, and breaking her heart. I don't know your background but that is a real issue for many of us.

Maybe that's your definition of weak minded, IDK.
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Your choice. That said if you are eating well a couple of holiday meals a year are not going to hurt you or change your weight. People want excuses, people will have excuses.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Your choice. That said if you are eating well a couple of holiday meals a year are not going to hurt you or change your weight. People want excuses, people will have excuses.
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I've never meet a vegan who had a few prime rib dinners a year. In part because it would make them really sick and because it's a lifestyle not just a diet. That said, we're not having the same conversation, so I don't see any point in it. I'm glad you're in perfect health and live a no compromises lifestyle, I hope it makes you a happy.
 
Fellas, fellas (I guess you're fellas)! No need to argue. Since I started my vegan diet I've been to Thanksgiving and Christmas feasts for the family and filled my plate without major compromises. Mashed potatoes, sweet potatoes, corn, string beans, rutabagas, salad, rolls, etc. Brought my own lentil loaf to share once and veggie burgers another time. Can't say everything was made without sugar or butter, but a couple times a year I'm not too worried and just consider it a treat. I just pass the meat platters on down the line.

dtuuri
 
Gary F said:
Don't be so sure. If simple sugars are not consumed by muscle immediately as the result of high metabolic demand they increase insulin levels which has several adverse effects. For diabetics increased blood sugar levels have significant long term consequences including kidney failure, blindness and (gasp) erectile dysfunction. I don't have the time to explain the biochemical mechanisms of high insulin and glucose levels but I see the consequences on blood vessels every day I'm at work.
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Counterpoint done better than I could do:
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/brainwaves/2013/07/15/is-sugar-really-toxic-sifting-through-the-evidence/
 
dtuuri said:
I've not seen any "long-term" studies of Atkins dieters, certainly not that reversed heart disease like Esslestyn and Ornish. Can you point me to them?

dtuuri
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Seriously, why bother? Nutritional studies are nonsense, no matter which perspective they come from.

In my opinion, they're almost always structured in such a way as to deliver the outcome desired by the researchers. More objectively, the fact that the results of these supposedly "scientific" studies are so widely divergent -- even contradictory -- places their scientific credibility on a par somewhere between astrology and psychology.

The other factor that makes these studies nonsense (that is, in addition to their researchers' biases) is that they study people who are concerned enough about their health to actually be doing something about it that involves a major lifestyle decision; so of course they're going to be healthier than an average, randomly-selected control group, many of whom consider nuking a frozen burrito at 7-11 to be "cooking."

Okay, in the spirit of generosity, I found a low-carb forum and lifted three links for you. I haven't read them because, as I have said, I think all nutritional studies are nonsense and not worth the effort to read. But they seem to be what you asked for. I suspect you'll almost certainly dismiss them as nonsense, and I will of course agree with you because, once again, I think they're all nonsense.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/22/us/two-studies-indicate-atkins-diet-may-help-heart.html

http://online.wsj.com/article/PR-CO-20130607-904498.html

http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=745937

-Rich
 
dtuuri said:
Fellas, fellas (I guess you're fellas)! No need to argue. Since I started my vegan diet I've been to Thanksgiving and Christmas feasts for the family and filled my plate without major compromises. Mashed potatoes, sweet potatoes, corn, string beans, rutabagas, salad, rolls, etc. Brought my own lentil loaf to share once and veggie burgers another time. Can't say everything was made without sugar or butter, but a couple times a year I'm not too worried and just consider it a treat. I just pass the meat platters on down the line.

dtuuri
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That is what I do, except I load up on meat and skip the bread and dessert. I used to rag on vegans, but now I realize they are brothers from another food pyramid. Anyone who doesn't believe the standard American diet and food pyramid is a good idea and is getting the results they want is a superstar.
 
Jim Logajan said:
Counterpoint done better than I could do:
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com...ar-really-toxic-sifting-through-the-evidence/
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It's not toxic at all for this guy, not a problem. The lesson is not to consume more sugar than you can burn.
images



I see a lot of pot bellied patients with heart attacks. They all consume a lot of excess calories, especially simple carbs and sugar. This is the most common pathway to metabolic syndrome by far. Metabolic syndrome is bad.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/metabolic-syndrome/basics/symptoms/con-20027243
http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/health-topics/topics/ms/
 
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