FADEC's fuel savings?

datafuser

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Two years ago TCM claimed its new FADEC engine TSIOF-550 on a Lancair IVP enabled the aircraft to achieve economy cruise speeds of 255 KTS while burning 17.5 gallons per hour of fuel.

http://www.aopa.org/oshkosh/oshkosh09/articles/090727turbo.html

Does anybody know how many gallons a non-FADEC Lancair IVP would burn per hour?

I am trying to calculate how much a FADEC would save in a 12,000-hour life-span.
 
It would depend on what the FADEC did.

Lean with advanced spark timing would save you quite a bit.
 
I am trying to calculate how much a FADEC would save in a 12,000-hour life-span.

I'm guessing that you meant 2,000 hour, since 12,000 hours is a lot of life out of a 550. But my guess is about $0, perhaps even negative.

It would depend on what the FADEC did.

Lean with advanced spark timing would save you quite a bit.

It does absolutely depend on what it does. From what I understand about the Continental engine, it had an interesting algorithm where every so many minutes it would search to find peak, and then adjust EGT to make it LOP, rather than working on an air/fuel ratio with calculated airflow, etc. Not a very advanced system.

However, on the current engines, I don't believe that in reality you'll save anything vs. just running your mechanical engines LOP. Yes, there is theoretically some gain to be had from advancing your timing. However, the modern spark systems don't deliver as high quality of a spark as a magneto, and that ends up giving you a power (and therefore efficiency) reduction. Also, the 20-25 degrees advance you see in most of these engines really is a pretty good number. Remember that we have a very small window that we operate in, so it's not hard to have close to an optimal setting with a fixed number. When I work with car engines, I see significant gains with advancing timing. I have not seen that on aircraft engines.

The advantages of a FADEC are mostly for the pilots who have trouble with mechanical devices and/or don't understand them well, or simply don't like fussing with them. Starting (hot and cold) becomes vastly simplified. You don't have to worry about a pilot forgetting to lean, forgetting to lean properly, or hitting the red box. Your $400,000 airplane you just bought finally has engine characteristics that your $20,000 Ford has had for 20 years. These features are valuable, and I think that a lot of people would be very well served by a FADEC in their aircraft.

Also worth noting that most of these advances in the automotive world really came about due to cost savings and/or emissions requirements. Fuel injection was very much an emissions requirement, as carbs tended to be finnicky and needed adjustment. Overdrives helped fuel economy. Distributorless ignition and later coil-on-plug ignition were huge cost savings for the manufacturer, not to mention made it easy to play around with timing (for emissions). When Ford when to the coil-on-plug system, they saved enough money the first year just on not having to build the spark plug wires to pay for the whole development program (this comes from someone who was on that program). But, my 1982 Jaguar XJ-S, after some modifications (timing, electric fans, exhaust, and 5-speed overdrive transmission) got 30 MPG @ 70 mph highway. I usually got 25 MPG @ 85. The old tech really wasn't as bad as people say it was...
 
Also, the 20-25 degrees advance you see in most of these engines really is a pretty good number. Remember that we have a very small window that we operate in, so it's not hard to have close to an optimal setting with a fixed number.
The speed / torque window is pretty small, but when you start going lean you really need to advance the spark to get the full benifit.
 
The speed / torque window is pretty small, but when you start going lean you really need to advance the spark to get the full benifit.

While I do agree with that and I have noticed that to make big differences on automotive engines, I've found on our aviation engines that isn't the case, and you run into other problems with knock, etc.
 
While I do agree with that and I have noticed that to make big differences on automotive engines, I've found on our aviation engines that isn't the case, and you run into other problems with knock, etc.

I don't know Ted. I'm still fairly new to this FWIW, but FADEC could be very advantageous in engine management. There are a lot of inputs that could be monitored much more efficiently, and minutely, by machine if the instrumentation is properly designed.

Don't get me wrong, there are super-duper master machinists that can outdo a computer in grinding a perfectly balanced camshaft. However, in general, the computer will outdo a person on a regular basis.


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I still drive a car with a standard transmission and very much prefer it; however, I'm certainly in the minority. The trend is clearly to the automatic. Many of the FADEC arguments v. manual controls seem to be similar.

The FADEC is very complex; did you see how many readings it takes off the engine? If a probe goes out, it defaults to a ROP position unless they've changed it and it could cause one to make precautionary landing if LOP is needed for an operation (farther range, etc.). It will add more complexity to our engines and for the mechanics that work on them. Yet, learning all we have about LOP operations is complex and if not done properly can damage an engine.

It's not on my list of priorities, but I could see how a newer pilot could benefit and would prefer it. I'd probably be frustrated knowing I could do better manually; especially, when stabilized at an altitude where I could really fine tune where I wanted to be.

Best,

Dave
 
As a low time pilot who has yet to learn all of the ins/outs of acheiving LOP operations, I would find a FADEC system useful.

But once I learned how to accomplish it, I'm like Dave where I would want to have that control manually.

Another way to look at not wanting it is comparing the newer cars/trucks to models from the 1980's. The newer electronic whizmo's are nice, but it's more items to malfunction and more trouble/expense to find out which item is causing the fault.

I guess that's why my dad loves driving his 2006 CTS but hates working on any major it, but will turn around and be very willing to spend many weekends working on his 1934 Ford Coupe hot rod with a carb'd Chevy 350.
 
I don't know Ted. I'm still fairly new to this FWIW, but FADEC could be very advantageous in engine management. There are a lot of inputs that could be monitored much more efficiently, and minutely, by machine if the instrumentation is properly designed.

Don't get me wrong, there are super-duper master machinists that can outdo a computer in grinding a perfectly balanced camshaft. However, in general, the computer will outdo a person on a regular basis.

Try it, see how well it does, tell me the results.

When I first started in this field, I couldn't believe that there weren't computer controls. Five years later, I really don't believe there is an advantage from an efficiency perspective on our engines. The advantages lie elsewhere. For certain individual pilots, yes, it will see a fuel savings. But that is not true for those who take the time to learn how to operate the things properly. I'm talking about the raw capabilities of the engines.

I still drive a car with a standard transmission and very much prefer it; however, I'm certainly in the minority. The trend is clearly to the automatic. Many of the FADEC arguments v. manual controls seem to be similar.

Well put. I, too, prefer a manual transmission. Our trucks have automatics (only offered that way), but the car and the motorcycles are all manual, and we like it that way.

The FADEC is very complex; did you see how many readings it takes off the engine? If a probe goes out, it defaults to a ROP position unless they've changed it and it could cause one to make precautionary landing if LOP is needed for an operation (farther range, etc.). It will add more complexity to our engines and for the mechanics that work on them. Yet, learning all we have about LOP operations is complex and if not done properly can damage an engine.

It depends on the specific algorithms, and can be programmed a lot of different ways. I've seen a couple different iterations where that isn't necessarily what happens.

The complexity and serviceability are definitely both issues, but I view those as more surmountable. However, they aren't anything more complex than what turbine guys have had to deal with for years. There will be a learning curve, and that will be painful for us who own (and pay for) the planes, and the technicians won't like it, either. That said, in the automotive world the same thing happened. In the end, we are all better off for it some decades later (at least, I think we are). As much as I'm against increased regulation, that is what drove it in automotive, and that will end up being what drives it in GA.

The bigger problem I see is that AvGas is really not a particularly useful fuel. All the turbine guys (who not only fly more but burn more fuel flying more) use Jet-A. 100LL, or any form of AvGas (unless we could actually just pump straight 93UL from the Sunoco down the street), ends up being a nuisance. A miniature turbine that's on par cost wise with pistons or a diesel that can run on Jet-A would definitely help the sustainability of GA. The hard part is finding the money to design and develop those, especially a "cost-effective turbine." Those little Rolls Royce units are the closest I've seen in the certified world, and they're far from cheap.

It's not on my list of priorities, but I could see how a newer pilot could benefit and would prefer it. I'd probably be frustrated knowing I could do better manually; especially, when stabilized at an altitude where I could really fine tune where I wanted to be.

The reality is that when you're at takeoff or climb power, there's really not any margin for doing things any more "efficiently" without cooking the heads. If a newer pilot doesn't have to learn leaning from the beginning, he or she will probably have a much harder time learning it later. As it is, most of the CFIs out there (who have turbines on the brain and just want to get to the airlines) don't have enough knowledge to convey anything useful. I find it rather frightening just how many people out there with thousands of hours ignore blatantly obvious engine problems, and really don't know enough to even operate the engines properly. That's where FADEC has advantage, not for those of us who actually can operate the things well. Like you, I want my manual transmission and my levers.
 
I can offer real-world results that suggest "no" in at least our situation. I can relate stories that suggest "yes" in other situations.

Compare, 4-seat PA28 and 2-seat XL2. PA28 (carb, manual mixture) has 160hp engine (320cid), burns 8.5gph to go 108kias. XL2 (FADEC) has 125hp engine (240cid), burns 7.0gph to go 113kias. This is typical for the type of flying I do, low altitude (rarely over 5k, occasionally up to 7k) short hops (typically 1-1.5 hour max).

So, XL2 is a smidge faster, but per unit of power, burns slightly more gas to do it. Should burn 6.6gph to equal the per HP burn of the old carb'd engine.

Now, others that routinely fly in the 9k+ range for 2-3 hours have reported seeing fuel burns of 4.9gph at similar speeds in the XL2. I doubt a PA28 could get the fuel burn that low, but I don't know. I've never flown that flight profile.

So, perhaps FADEC is the way to go for long distance flying, but not so much for local flights? Perhaps the optimization routines simply take too long to do their job in the current version? Either way, in this comparison the FADEC engine is smaller, so frictional losses will be higher, but the airframe is much smaller and more aerodynamic, so burn should be lower...
 
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Another way to look at not wanting it is comparing the newer cars/trucks to models from the 1980's. The newer electronic whizmo's are nice, but it's more items to malfunction and more trouble/expense to find out which item is causing the fault.

They are more items to malfunction, but I think if you look at the reliability rates they tend to malfunction less frequently. I've had very few problems with fuel injected vehicles over a lot of miles. I have had a lot more problems with carbureted vehicles over many fewer miles.
 
I don't know Ted. I'm still fairly new to this FWIW, but FADEC could be very advantageous in engine management. There are a lot of inputs that could be monitored much more efficiently, and minutely, by machine if the instrumentation is properly designed.

Don't get me wrong, there are super-duper master machinists that can outdo a computer in grinding a perfectly balanced camshaft. However, in general, the computer will outdo a person on a regular basis.


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Airplane engines are designed to operate pretty efficiently at typical cruise power settings. At full power they're much less efficient but like Ted said, that's necessary to prevent damage. A FADEC system could provide better economy at fairly low power settings by varying the timing but on a typical flight that's not going to provide much overall benefit and certainly wouldn't justify the cost and complexity. Compared to automobile engines our aircraft engines operate over a much smaller range of RPM and power. A car engine typically cruises between 1500 and 3000 RPM with occasional brief excursions to something like 5000-7000 RPM. Cruise power might be in the 10-20 HP range with an engine capable of producing 250-300 HP. In the airplane with a big engine and CS prop the cruise RPM likely ranges from around 2200 to 2500 RPM and a 300 HP engine is normally pumping out 180-210 HP. And since the RPM and power output vary so little it's fairly easy to set things up for efficient operation over that narrow range.
 
I can offer real-world results that suggest "no" in at least our situation. I can relate stories that suggest "yes" in other situations.

Compare, 4-seat PA28 and 2-seat XL2. PA28 (carb, manual mixture) has 160hp engine (320cid), burns 8.5gph to go 108kias. XL2 (FADEC) has 125hp engine (240cid), burns 7.0gph to go 113kias. This is typical for the type of flying I do, low altitude (rarely over 5k, occasionally up to 7k) short hops (typically 1-1.5 hour max).

So, XL2 is a smidge faster, but per unit of power, burns slightly more gas to do it. Should burn 6.6gph to equal the per HP burn of the old carb'd engine.
Your method of analyzing that is pretty flawed. How are you determining that the FADEC engine is less efficient? You need to figure out how much horsepower each engine is putting out at those fuel burns. You can't compare the speeds at all - the airframes are totally different.

You're also comparing two very different engines with different properties.
 
Your method of analyzing that is pretty flawed. How are you determining that the FADEC engine is less efficient? You need to figure out how much horsepower each engine is putting out at those fuel burns. You can't compare the speeds at all - the airframes are totally different.

You're also comparing two very different engines with different properties.

Your reasoning is flawed. The engines are not so dissimilar and the airframes aren't either. Small GA singles aren't so much different as you apparently believe. Since I didn't run back to back identical flights in the exact same airplane under the exact same weather with the exact same load, it's be definition a rough comparison (averaged from many hours of flight time in both). I'll try to connect some of the dots for you, perhaps that would help...

The PA28 would be around 70% power. The XL2 would be at 63% power. The XL2 is lighter and more aerodynamic. I've looked at efficiency per HP and and per cubic inch (not much difference as the O-320 does the typical 50% cid and the 240 FADEC only squeaks out 125 with its slightly higher redline). As mentioned originally, there are some factors not considered, such as (marginally) higher friction of the smaller engine and the (marginally) better aerodynamics and reduced weight of the XL2. However, those are minimal and hence the results are considered rough ("suggests"). Those all should actually make the FADEC engine look even better! The very fact that they don't also *suggest* that the promise of FADEC is not realized in my typical flights. I also specifically mentioned the disparate results (between my flight characteristics and others) to show the promise of the FADEC vs. what some may see in different circumstances.
 
Your reasoning is flawed. The engines are not so dissimilar and the airframes aren't either. Small GA singles aren't so much different as you apparently believe.
Small differences add up and there are certainly a lot of small differences. There is just no way to come to a conclusive result based on the limited information in your first post.

The PA28 would be around 70% power. The XL2 would be at 63% power.
Based on the data you've given me so far..the engines must be rather different because the XL2 is very inefficient. A proper FADEC system isn't going to be the sole cause that makes the XL2 25% less efficient.

The airframe must also be rather different for it to be going 5 knots faster on 78.75 hp versus the PA-28 at 112 HP.

112 hp 7.5 gph 14.93 hp per gallon
78.75 hp 7 gph 11.25 hp per gallon

Nadir said:
I'll try to connect some of the dots for you, perhaps that would help...
So what you're telling me is that the airframes are the same and a fair comparison even though you also told me that the XL2 goes 5 knots faster on 33 less HP.

You're also telling me that the engines are fair to compare to each other even though the numbers you've given me indicate that the XL2 engine is 25% less efficient. There is no way a proper FADEC system would make it 25% less efficient.

Either your original comparison wasn't a good comparison or the numbers you're given me to back up your comparison are wrong because when you crunch the numbers they don't lead to a result that backs your first post.
 
Airplane engines are designed to operate pretty efficiently at typical cruise power settings. At full power they're much less efficient but like Ted said, that's necessary to prevent damage.

Just as a clarification, they are less efficient at full power because of the requirement to run rich. The most efficient throttle setting, however, is wide open. A wide open throttle, lean of peak condition is the most efficient mode one can operate an engine in (that is in terms of engine BSFC, not cruise efficiency.) A FADEC system could take the guesswork out of lean of peak, near full power takeoffs and climbouts, which could result in significant savings on short, high altitude flights.
 
Just as a clarification, they are less efficient at full power because of the requirement to run rich.

That is correct.

The most efficient throttle setting, however, is wide open. A wide open throttle, lean of peak condition is the most efficient mode one can operate an engine in (that is in terms of engine BSFC, not cruise efficiency.)
That is correct, but the question is whether or not it's reasonably obtainable, and this will vary heavily from engine to engine, and even from installation to installation.

A FADEC system could take the guesswork out of lean of peak, near full power takeoffs and climbouts, which could result in significant savings on short, high altitude flights.
Well, there's no reason why you can't do that yourself with the setups that exists. I've tried LOP climbs with the Aztec and 310. yes, I can do them. Henning's said he does them with his 310.

However, I've typically found that, especially on aircraft that need to run particularly rich (and would thus benefit the most from fuel savings), a LOP climb doesn't make a lot of sense due to lack of power and/or cooling. If you take the Chieftain, for instance, it's pretty much climbing ROP at almost full power (40"/2400 RPM) and even at that setting it's running hot, and not climbing well. The Aztec or 310, which do pretty well for climbs normally, get significantly slower if you try a LOP climb. Your mileage may vary, and this does depend on the aircraft.

There's also a very big difference between "can" and "do" when it comes to capabilities of FADECs...
 
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I can do LOP climbs in the 58P if it's not real heavy and not real hot. So, other than pretty full in Summer, I can do it, but it doesn't climb quite as well as ROP. It takes a long time to get to the low flight levels at 6 to 700 FPM which is normal ROP climb. Unless I'm really trying to stretch the range, it's just not worth it. A better technique seems to be to lean during step ups when climbing. When going west, I get several step ups and can save 5 to 10 gallons leaning when leveled off during step ups.

Best,

Dave
 
That is correct.

That is correct, but the question is whether or not it's reasonably obtainable, and this will vary heavily from engine to engine, and even from installation to installation.

Well, there's no reason why you can't do that yourself with the setups that exists. I've tried LOP climbs with the Aztec and 310. yes, I can do them. Henning's said he does them with his 310.

However, I've typically found that, especially on aircraft that need to run particularly rich (and would thus benefit the most from fuel savings), a LOP climb doesn't make a lot of sense due to lack of power and/or cooling. If you take the Chieftain, for instance, it's pretty much climbing ROP at almost full power (40"/2400 RPM) and even at that setting it's running hot, and not climbing well. The Aztec or 310, which do pretty well for climbs normally, get significantly slower if you try a LOP climb. Your mileage may vary, and this does depend on the aircraft.

There's also a very big difference between "can" and "do" when it comes to capabilities of FADECs...

I agree with you Ted - I think there is a potential for FADECs to be more efficient than manual control, but it would require significantly different systems such as EFI and fundamentally different spark and fuel control algorithyms, and that is where I was coming from. I don't see existing FADEC systems as being more efficient than manual control.

I also agree whether LOP climbs make sense or not depends on the engine and airplane combination. I know of Bonanza drivers that do that and are able to keep CHT's in check and still maintain acceptable climb gradients. I don't do it myself.
 
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