FAA Record Keeping

[kyleb]

Let's say I'm out flying the RV one day and get checked. The guy with the FAA badge asks for me to prove I've got a tailwheel sign-off.

Fair enough. But I don't carry logbooks in the airplane, so he asks me to scan and send me a copy of the endorsement. But what if *that* logbook is MIA? Is there a way to prove I have the endorsement? Did my instructor have to send in a form (or forms) to the FAA confirming the endorsement, and serving as a permanant record?

Note - this is a hypothetical. I've never been ramped...

 

[Geico266]

No, the instructor does not send info to the FAA for endorsements.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Let's say I'm out flying the RV one day and get checked. The guy with the FAA badge asks for me to prove I've got a tailwheel sign-off.

Fair enough. But I don't carry logbooks in the airplane, so he asks me to scan and send me a copy of the endorsement. But what if *that* logbook is MIA? Is there a way to prove I have the endorsement? Did my instructor have to send in a form (or forms) to the FAA confirming the endorsement, and serving as a permanant record?

Note - this is a hypothetical. I've never been ramped...

If you are ramped and the Inspector ask to see your logbook to confirm a tail wheel endorsement, you can tell him you don't have your logbook with you. If he still wants to see it, then you can arrange to a) scan it and email it to him, or b) go to the FSDO ( or other arranged meeting area) and show it to him, or c) make a copy of said endorsement and mail it to him.

If you loose your logbook your instructor should have in his records where he endorsed you. Also, it doesn't hurt to make copies (or scans) of logbooks and endorsements to keep in a safe place.

Last question, no your instructor is not required to report endorsements to the FAA, however he is required to keep records.

 

[poadeleted20]

If you loose your logbook your instructor should have in his records where he endorsed you.

As a matter of practice, many (if not most) instructors do keep such records, but there is no regulation requiring instructors to keep any records of training or endorsements given beyond:

(b) A flight instructor must maintain a record in a logbook or a separate document that contains the following:
(1) The name of each person whose logbook or student pilot certificate that instructor has endorsed for solo flight privileges, and the date of the endorsement; and
(2) The name of each person that instructor has endorsed for a knowledge test or practical test, and the record shall also indicate the kind of test, the date, and the results.

...and 61.31 endorsements like tailwheel do not fall within that rule. So don't bet on that being a fallback -- make copies of each page in your log as it is completed and each endorsement as it is added.

 

[tinerj]

I had an incident in a Fly Baby and did get to visit the FSDO. I happened to have authorization by my CFI to fly solo an Aeronca Champ taped in my first logbook. It dated from my first solo in 1970. I'd also made a color copy of it and gave it to the FAA guy. He recognized the Champ as a tailwheel aircraft and accepted the fact I was grandfathered in.

Several people told me that the endorsement should have been in the back of the logbook. But at that time, 1970, there was no such thing as a "tailwheel endorsement". Instead, the CFI merely indicated what type of aircraft you could solo in.

A couple of years later my CFI made a bad turn while crop dusting and died. The 3rd class medical is all I have. (Attached)

 

[BillTIZ]

You have logbook PIC time prior to the requirement, you are "grandfathered", no issues to challenge. Sorry to hear about the CFI.

I was grandfathered for tailwheel, complex and high performance, as I'm sure many pilots are. But as I moved around the country and checked out at different FBOs, the CFI said, "let's put an endorsement in you logbook anyway".

 

[poadeleted20]

Just so's there's no question, there is no "grandfathering" just for having a solo endorsement in a HP/complex/tailwheel airplane. It's the PIC time you logged while flying solo (and the Chief Counsel long ago said solo time from the old days when solo was just "solo" and you didn't log PIC time until you got your PPL counts as PIC time for today's purposes), not the solo endorsement on your Student Pilot certificate or logbook, which grandfathers you.

(2) The training and endorsement required by paragraph (i)(1) of this section is not required if the person logged pilot-in-command time in a tailwheel airplane before April 15, 1991.[similar language for the others]

IOW, if you got the solo endorsement but never actually logged any PIC time, you are not "grandfathered."

And I'm grandfathered for all four (HP/complex - T-34B, tailwheel - L-4, high-altitude - Cessna 401).

 

[LDJones]

Just so's there's no question, there is no "grandfathering" just for having a solo endorsement in a HP/complex/tailwheel airplane. It's the PIC time you logged while flying solo (and the Chief Counsel long ago said solo time from the old days when solo was just "solo" and you didn't log PIC time until you got your PPL counts as PIC time for today's purposes), not the solo endorsement on your Student Pilot certificate or logbook, which grandfathers you.
IOW, if you got the solo endorsement but never actually logged any PIC time, you are not "grandfathered."

And I'm grandfathered for all four (HP/complex - T-34B, tailwheel - L-4, high-altitude - Cessna 401).

In 33 years I've never signed off a solo that wasn't actually flown within minutes of the endorsement, so there would always be solo/PIC time logged in whatever was authorized for solo.

 

[poadeleted20]

In 33 years I've never signed off a solo that wasn't actually flown within minutes of the endorsement, so there would always be solo/PIC time logged in whatever was authorized for solo.

I guess my point is don't lose the logbook (or copy of same) with that solo time, because by the letter of the regulation, that solo endorsement is not by itself sufficient for grandfathering.

 

[tinerj]

In my case, the 3rd class medical satisfied the FSDO. They didn't need to see that I'd flown a tailwheel as PIC. If they had there might have been some more questions.

I did fly the Champ solo in 1970. But after the three landings, the summer was over and I needed to get back to school, and I'd run out of money. I never flew again for 33 years.

Thirty-three years later I started over, this time in a Cessna 150 with tricycle gear. We'd recorded some of my training in the logbook and when I mentioned I soloed years before in a Champ, the CFI said it wasn't in my logbook. I agreed. In the Champ, my CFI had made all the entries after our training flights. When I soloed, I never came back and I didn't know I was the one who was supposed to enter the solo PIC info.

So, 33 years after the fact I made the entry in the logbook. Solo PIC is there -- but recorded out of sequence and 33 years after the solo.

Is their a requirement that PIC time must be logged relatively near the time at which it was done?

 

[Tom-D]

first thing the insurance company adjuster wanted to see was a copy of my tailwheel endorsement. the next two things were my medical date, and my pilots certificate.

 

[poadeleted20]

In my case, the 3rd class medical satisfied the FSDO.

It's a fine technical point, and I suppose there are Inspectors out there who either don't know or don't particularly care about it as long as you haven't bent the plane or shown up for a practical test without the requisite item in your logbook.

Is their a requirement that PIC time must be logged relatively near the time at which it was done?

No. Just before the grandfathering date.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Your logbook is your responsibility. If you are lacking a required logbook endorsement, you better get one. As a CFI, I do not keep records into perpetuity.. If you complete a flight review in a tail wheel aircraft, the CFI can give you the endorsement at that time.

I kept training records on everything, not because of the FAA but more as a CYA against the leeches of society (lawyers).

 

[RotorAndWing]

So you are maintaining training records until your death? If liabilty is your concern, you certainly do not want to re-issue endorsements based on your training records. "Hey Mr. CFI, You signed me off ten years ago for a tail wheel and I lost my log book, will you re-issue?"

Didn't say I would now did I? And yes, those records are in storage with my other records back in the states.

 

[LDJones]

Your logbook is your responsibility. If you are lacking a required logbook endorsement, you better get one. As a CFI, I do not keep records into perpetuity.. If you complete a flight review in a tail wheel aircraft, the CFI can give you the endorsement at that time.

The record of my endorsements are all in my logbooks and I'm never disposing of them. I duplicated my paper logs into an electronic version years ago and maintain both, so I can find any endorsement in the last 33 years in a few seconds.

 

[LDJones]

So you are maintaining training records until your death? If liabilty is your concern, you certainly do not want to re-issue endorsements based on your training records. "Hey Mr. CFI, You signed me off ten years ago for a tail wheel and I lost my log book, will you re-issue?"

It hasn't come up, but if it did I wouldn't have a problem duplicating the endorsement for the date originally issued. I probably wouldn't sign it with today's date.

 

[Tom-D]

For a lot of old guys it is more difficult to find the CFI who signed you off years ago than to get a new CFI to do the training over and get a new entry in your log.

 

[hiflier]

(and the Chief Counsel long ago said solo time from the old days when solo was just "solo" and you didn't log PIC time until you got your PPL counts as PIC time for today's purposes)

It would be pretty funny if they determined otherwise since then you would have to conclude that their was no one in command of the plane flying around with a student pilot on board, which is a scary thought.

 

[Skylane81E]

Scary thought but it is true too often, even with certificated pilots

 

[LDJones]

Even in an electronic format, technological changes to hardware and software require periodic work to maintain records. People leave aviation for a number of reasons: economic, medical, death, new endeavors. If you enjoy having a 30 year old record for a student who hasn't flown in twenty years, good for you.

The point was the records are in my logbooks (which is where most CFIs I know record them), so don't see a huge additional record-keeping burden.

In over 30 years no one has yet asked for an old endorsement, so it's not much of an issue.

 

[poadeleted20]

(and the Chief Counsel long ago said solo time from the old days when solo was just "solo" and you didn't log PIC time until you got your PPL counts as PIC time for today's purposes)

It would be pretty funny if they determined otherwise since then you would have to conclude that their was no one in command of the plane flying around with a student pilot on board, which is a scary thought.

Your humor is noted, but also keep mind that we're talking about logging PIC time, not being the PIC. The two are now and always have been separate issues covered by separate regulations. So, back then, the Student Pilot was indeed the PIC, but was not permitted to log PIC time, just like any Private Pilot today who lets a pilot-rated passenger manipulate the controls (unless the manipulator is hooded).