FAA recognizes ATD advances.

bobmrg

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Bob Gardner
This change is effective in 45 days. No public comment.

Sec. 61.65 Instrument rating requirements.

* * * * *
(i) Use of an aviation training device. A maximum of 20 hours of
instrument time received in an aviation training device may be credited
for the instrument time requirements of this section if--
(1) The device is approved and authorized by the FAA;
(2) An authorized instructor provides the instrument time in the
device; and
(3) The FAA approved the instrument training and instrument tasks
performed in the device.
(j) A person may not credit more than 20 total hours of instrument
time in a flight simulator, flight training device, aviation training
device, or combination toward the instrument time requirements of this
section.

Bob Gardner
 
Does this effect you if you already started instrument training before the change?
 
Ron Levy; does this apply to the new sims PIC uses?
 
Any word on applicability for instrument currency - specifically, without an instructor present?

A school near me is advertising a Redbird sim that can be used for currency without an instructor present, but I've seen other sources that say you need the instructor.

Considering you don't need an instructor present if you're in a real plane, it would seem it should be acceptable when using a sim approved for a rating.

Although, how would they know you didn't cheat? Of course, no one knows if you put a bogus flight entry in your logbook, either :yikes: If you're dumb enough to do it either for actual or simulated experience, it's your rear on the line the next time you're in IMC...
 
Any word on applicability for instrument currency - specifically, without an instructor present?

A school near me is advertising a Redbird sim that can be used for currency without an instructor present, but I've seen other sources that say you need the instructor.

Considering you don't need an instructor present if you're in a real plane, it would seem it should be acceptable when using a sim approved for a rating.

Although, how would they know you didn't cheat? Of course, no one knows if you put a bogus flight entry in your logbook, either :yikes: If you're dumb enough to do it either for actual or simulated experience, it's your rear on the line the next time you're in IMC...


Thanks for asking that question. I was just thinking about it wondering if we can use an approved sim for currency without an instructor. Only thing I have been able to find regarding sim use is for obtaining a rating. 61.57 says an FTD or ATD can be used and says nothing about an instructor being present....
 
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Does this effect you if you already started instrument training before the change?
As I read the rule, anyone who takes the practical test after the effective date of Jan 20 can use 20 hours on an AATD. Note that BATD's are still subject to the 10-hour limit.
 
A PCATD is a BATD for these purposes? What exactly is a AATD?
 
Any word on applicability for instrument currency - specifically, without an instructor present?
There is no change to 61.51(g) regarding that issue. The presence of an instructor remains required.

A school near me is advertising a Redbird sim that can be used for currency without an instructor present, but I've seen other sources that say you need the instructor.
That school is advertising based on a Letter of Authorization improperly issued by AFS-810 and since rescinded. They should not be advertising that any more, and time/events conducted on a sim without the presence and signature of an instructor currently do not count for any FAA purpose.

Considering you don't need an instructor present if you're in a real plane, it would seem it should be acceptable when using a sim approved for a rating.
That will require a change to 61.51(g). I had not asked whether they're working on that or not, but I'll let you know what I hear.
 
Thanks for asking that question. I was just thinking about it wondering if we can use an approved sim for currency without an instructor. Only thing I have been able to find regarding sim use is for obtaining a rating. 61.57 says an FTD or ATD can be used and says nothing about an instructor being present....
You're right -- it's not in 61.57, it's in 61.51(g)(4):
(4) A person can use time in a flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device for acquiring instrument aeronautical experience for a pilot certificate, rating, or instrument recency experience, provided an authorized instructor is present to observe that time and signs the person's logbook or training record to verify the time and the content of the training session.
This was verified in the Keller interpretation.
 
A PCATD is a BATD for these purposes? What exactly is a AATD?
There is no such thing as a PC-ATD any more -- they're all ATD's, and divided into Advanced and Basic versions (AATD and BATD). To learn the differences, see AC-61-136A (brand new, dated 11/14/14). You'll have to go through Appendices 2 (on BATD's) and 3 (on AATD's) to see what's different, and I haven't done that yet.
 
I guess I just assumed that all of the PC-ATD's ended up as BATD, but I will read the reference. Thanks...

It isn't like we have that many options around here, so these various types are quickly forgotten..
 
Now does it say anywhere how up to date the sim has to be, such a redbird software that was last updated in 2012?
 
I don't understand the language about the mixture of allowing 40% and 20hrs, when the IR is 40hrs requirement.
 
Any word on applicability for instrument currency - specifically, without an instructor present?
Update: Apparently that was originally included in this change, but there was some contention over that part, so it was dropped to expedite the ATD 20-hour approval. It's still under consideration, with a decision expected next spring.
 
I don't understand the language about the mixture of allowing 40% and 20hrs, when the IR is 40hrs requirement.
You must be looking at the Part 141 portion of the change, and Part 141 allows approval of IR courses with only 35 hours (all instrument training, however, not just instrument time). This change increases the allowable amount of ATD instrument training time in such courses from 10% to 40% (matching the previously approved percentage for FTD's).
 
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Since it says FAA approved training, does that mean AATDs can ONLY be used at 141 schools or in a 141 context? no more 61 logging?
 
Since it says FAA approved training, does that mean AATDs can ONLY be used at 141 schools or in a 141 context? no more 61 logging?
No, it does not mean that. There are two regs involved -- 61.65 covering Part 61 IR training, and 141.41 covering Part 141 IR training.
 
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A PCATD is a BATD for these purposes? What exactly is a AATD?

Go to www.faa.gov. On the home page, click on Advisory Circulars, then scroll down to AC 61-136A. You will find AATDs discussed in Appendix 3. You will find that they are pretty pricey. I would guess (without ever seeing one), that Redbird is in the running.

Caveat: The change in Part 61 is effective 20 January 2015, so it might not be up on the faa page yet. I got it from the Federal Register.

Bob Gardner
 
Precision Flight Controls makes a range of AATD's, as does Elite, Frasca, Redbird and Paradigm Simulations. There are other manufacturers, too, I'm sure, but those would be the ones I run into most often.
 
Precision Flight Controls makes a range of AATD's, as does Elite, Frasca, Redbird and Paradigm Simulations. There are other manufacturers, too, I'm sure, but those would be the ones I run into most often.
Not all the ATD's those companies make are AATD's -- some are BATD's which Flight Standards intends to continue limiting to 10 hours for the IR for the foreseeable future. Make sure you know which you're getting, as AATD's are usually significantly more expensive due to the extra visual displays required.
 
Does this seem about right?

Basic Aviation Training Device:

105023-f0303.jpg


Advanced Aviation Training Device:

MFD02.png
 
Not all the ATD's those companies make are AATD's -- some are BATD's which Flight Standards intends to continue limiting to 10 hours for the IR for the foreseeable future. Make sure you know which you're getting, as AATD's are usually significantly more expensive due to the extra visual displays required.

Correct, they all have diverse product lines consisting of BATD's and AATD's.
 
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