FAA brings mobile ATC to Key West

Hey V, what were the PAR mins for the Army and Marine PARs? Always heard it was kinda high compared to USAF PAR. USAF is 100' DH but we are capable of working a plane down to the dirt as far as glide path and azimuth. Pilot makes his decision at 100' and then we provided advisories the rest of the way, but we could keep the plane on course and glidepath all the way down. Actually had numerous zero-zero emergency recoveries with that capability, not me but other controllers I know.
 
Ha! It might be that simple. Yeah I never thought about what they use out there.

We always used FAA King Airs and Challengers for station and expeditionary gear in the Marines. In the Army we had our own C-12s or if emergency approach, just did a tactical flight check internally.
When we opened Nam Phong with MATCU-62 we operated for quite awhile before the C140 showed up to do a flight check. I was Tower and didn't pay any attention to the details of what went on with Radar. I think it may have been there to just check the TACAN. I was working that day and I don't remember them shootin any GCA's
 
Hey V, what were the PAR mins for the Army and Marine PARs? Always heard it was kinda high compared to USAF PAR. USAF is 100' DH but we are capable of working a plane down to the dirt as far as glide path and azimuth. Pilot makes his decision at 100' and then we provided advisories the rest of the way, but we could keep the plane on course and glidepath all the way down. Actually had numerous zero-zero emergency recoveries with that capability, not me but other controllers I know.
NBC, NKT and NKX all have 100 footers. Only some airplanes will go that low though. NLC has 100' 1/4 minimums but in the 6 years I worked there not once do I remember a plane attempting an approach when the ceiling was less than 200. There was a thread awhile back about this and a pilot said that only 2 seat side by side seating aircraft, like A6's were allowed to go below 200.
 
Hey V, what were the PAR mins for the Army and Marine PARs? Always heard it was kinda high compared to USAF PAR. USAF is 100' DH but we are capable of working a plane down to the dirt as far as glide path and azimuth. Pilot makes his decision at 100' and then we provided advisories the rest of the way, but we could keep the plane on course and glidepath all the way down. Actually had numerous zero-zero emergency recoveries with that capability, not me but other controllers I know.

We were told the opposite. AF was at 200 HAT and ours (USMC) was 100 HAT???. I don't know though. Never really investigated the AF stuff but yes, many Navy / Marine facilities get ya down to 100 ft. Every base I was stationed at as a matter of fact. Think 35 said that single pilot had a cutoff at 200 ft though. Not sure how they determine that. I guess when they see 200 on the RADALT they go missed???
Army side, don't know a single facility that goes below 200. Sad to say, there were few Army controllers I'd trust taking me to 200 ft anyway. :(
 
NBC, NKT and NKX all have 100 footers. Only some airplanes will go that low though. NLC has 100' 1/4 minimums but in the 6 years I worked there not once do I remember a plane attempting an approach when the ceiling was less than 200. There was a thread awhile back about this and a pilot said that only 2 seat side by side seating aircraft, like A6's were allowed to go below 200.

Thanks. Don't know those identifiers but assume they're Navy? Or Marine bases?
 
We were told the opposite. AF was at 200 HAT and ours (USMC) was 100 HAT???. I don't know though. Never really investigated the AF stuff but yes, many Navy / Marine facilities get ya down to 100 ft. Every base I was stationed at as a matter of fact. Think 35 said that single pilot had a cutoff at 200 ft though. Not sure how they determine that. I guess when they see 200 on the RADALT they go missed???
Army side, don't know a single facility that goes below 200. Sad to say, there were few Army controllers I'd trust taking me to 200 ft anyway. :(

Thanks. Don't know those identifiers but assume they're Navy? Or Marine bases?

200' is wrong for Air Force PARs. Always was 100' during my time in. I knew a Army controller at Troy AL that worked the tower there, and there was a Army PAR there also but it had high mins, way more than 200'. Maybe rotary was higher mins?
 
When we opened Nam Phong with MATCU-62 we operated for quite awhile before the C140 showed up to do a flight check. I was Tower and didn't pay any attention to the details of what went on with Radar. I think it may have been there to just check the TACAN. I was working that day and I don't remember them shootin any GCA's

Yeah, I think each service has different criteria for flight checks. In the Marines, if the expeditionary gear is going to be working civilian aircraft IFR, they to have an FAA flight check. We had a Challenger in Thailand that checked the TACAN, MVAs, SA and PAR and frequency coverage. If a FAA flight check isn't available, the MAG CG can designate a local tactical flight check but the facility will be VFR only or IFR for MAG aircraft only.

Last approach I gave was a TPN22 (tactical) PAR to an FAA Flight Check HS25 at NKX. Just happened to be the only one on the whole base qualified to give it. "Best PAR we've ever gotten." Fitting end to 8 years in the Marines.:)
 
What do figure is happening by PASY, PADK and PAKO? PASY seems to be rotating and the other two some kind of spot beam?

I don't know what those acronyms are. But I was also up until 2AM with an outage at work. Care to help me with my brain mush?
 
200' is wrong for Air Force PARs. Always was 100' during my time in. I knew a Army controller at Troy AL that worked the tower there, and there was a Army PAR there also but it had high mins, way more than 200'. Maybe rotary was higher mins?

Well I don't doubt the AF has / had 100 ft HAT. It's not a one size fits all though. Tyndall currently has 200 ft while Warner Robins used to have 100 ft. Plenty of Navy / Marine facilities have the higher 200 ft as well. Just so happens everywhere I was based, they had 100 ft. Cant remember Oki though. Might have been 200. That was such a POS anyway you'd be lucky to get a workable target in light rain.
 
Not what I heard. :D

I kid.

Oh with our tactical stuff you could bring an aircraft in dead on. Crystal clear color displays with finger on glass. You could "lock" the target up and actually have a tag attached to the glidepath target like an ASR. Then you could tap a set of crosshairs and it would show a dot (aircraft) reference to the center with a digital readout in ft above / below and left / right. Autoland (if equipped) as well. State of the art back then. Way better than station (FPN-63) gear.

Been / being replaced by ATNAVICS. Mistake in my opinion but not my concern anymore.

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Oh, back to the original topic. Why the temp tower in Key West anyway. Their tower get wiped out or something?
 
I don't know what those acronyms are. But I was also up until 2AM with an outage at work. Care to help me with my brain mush?
Not acronyms. They are airports in Alaska. There are notes on the Sectional warning you about RF Radiation and you should stay away
 
200' is wrong for Air Force PARs. Always was 100' during my time in. I knew a Army controller at Troy AL that worked the tower there, and there was a Army PAR there also but it had high mins, way more than 200'. Maybe rotary was higher mins?
lot of it is going to have to do with lighting. Centerline and/or Touchdown zone lighting is the determiner I think. Of course ya gotta have aproach lights with strobes. Oh, and no big buildings and stuff on final. I dont think which service is running the airport has anything to do with it.
 
Not acronyms. They are airports in Alaska. There are notes on the Sectional warning you about RF Radiation and you should stay away

Ahh. Search radars.

Welllllll... high power pulses of high frequency RF aren't great for your tender bits, and can do nasty things to electronics...

And warning signs on military installations tend to utilize a bit of "truthiness" to keep people away, but the real reasons aren't always what the sign says. :)

An example might be the restrictions on UHF transmitters in the Amateur bands near certain array radar installations and for a radius around them, and when you do the math for the power level likely involved (not public knowledge, you have to guess) and beam width, and how far that would travel in freespace and how big a target they'd be able to see at what distance... you realize they're looking for stuff smaller than a baseball... in Earth orbit.

In he case of air search radar, sometimes they just don't want you blocking their scenic view, so to speak. A reflection off of your aircraft kinda obliterates their ability to see something waaaaaaaaay over there behind you, of a certain size...

Personally I'd still heed the warning. Never know what kind of power levels the kids are using these days, and how focused the beam is via aperture phased array antennas or similar. Without knowing, I ain't sticking my tender bits in front of it.

I don't get in front of our 10 MHz 3W transmitter dish when we contest with it either. And I'm pretty sure the kind government folks have a lot more than 3W going into the antenna before it's focused into a tiny little point beam. :)

At the very least you might need cataract surgery long before most other folks might. :)
 
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Here is a copy of one of those great emergency approaches into Bosnia just after Occupying the country for us guys flying with only an NDB when the PAR was down...AH-64A only had an NDB...notice the instructions on the emergency letdown at the end...Our GPS was for targeting and not for approach navigation and had to be fat fingered in.
 
lot of it is going to have to do with lighting. Centerline and/or Touchdown zone lighting is the determiner I think. Of course ya gotta have aproach lights with strobes. Oh, and no big buildings and stuff on final. I dont think which service is running the airport has anything to do with it.

Unless it's change, PARs at fixed locations (established AFBs) were 100' w/ PARs. Tactical deployments (combat zones) PARs were 100'. This was with the MPN-14. But how would I know, I only had to aligned the scope every time I worked the position. :rolleyes:
 
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Here is a copy of one of those great emergency approaches into Bosnia just after Occupying the country for us guys flying with only an NDB when the PAR was down...AH-64A only had an NDB...notice the instructions on the emergency letdown at the end...Our GPS was for targeting and not for approach navigation and had to be fat fingered in.

Ha! That's awesome. I heard they did that back in the day but we were never allowed an emergency letdown like that. Not taught anymore in the I.E. course that's for sure. Current format has to have some statements in the plain view as well.


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Well I don't doubt the AF has / had 100 ft HAT. It's not a one size fits all though. Tyndall currently has 200 ft while Warner Robins used to have 100 ft. Plenty of Navy / Marine facilities have the higher 200 ft as well. Just so happens everywhere I was based, they had 100 ft. Cant remember Oki though. Might have been 200. That was such a POS anyway you'd be lucky to get a workable target in light rain.

So there are some PAR's (even USN) that have a 100' HAT DH, but the big catch all is the 3710 reg that limits any "single piloted aircraft" to no lower than 200' and 1/2 mile in any situation. So if you are talking any current USN or USMC tacair jet, that is the absolute minimum, regardless of what the actual approach mins are.

To answer your question earlier about certification of shipboard approaches, that is done during a ship's pre-workup deck cert cycle. VX-23 from Pax river will come out for a couple days and certify the ICLS and PALS (i.e. ACLS) for every ship prior to conducting pre-deployment workups. I have no idea how many approaches they do, but from what I have observed, it is around a 2 day process.
 
So there are some PAR's (even USN) that have a 100' HAT DH, but the big catch all is the 3710 reg that limits any "single piloted aircraft" to no lower than 200' and 1/2 mile in any situation. So if you are talking any current USN or USMC tacair jet, that is the absolute minimum, regardless of what the actual approach mins are.

To answer your question earlier about certification of shipboard approaches, that is done during a ship's pre-workup deck cert cycle. VX-23 from Pax river will come out for a couple days and certify the ICLS and PALS (i.e. ACLS) for every ship prior to conducting pre-deployment workups. I have no idea how many approaches they do, but from what I have observed, it is around a 2 day process.
ICLS came up in another thread awhile back. Do planes that have ACLS also have ICLS? I remember different 'categories' of ACLS ranging from flying the needles on up to 'don't touch anything and it'll hit the wire for you." Does ACLS have it's own needles or are they using the ICLS needles? It sounded like ICLS was maybe a backup to PAR before ACLS came around. Supposedly because ICLS could be stabilized to compensate for a pitching deck while PAR couldn't be. Exactly how does ICLS fit into the picture?
 
One thing about the Air Force's mobile RAPCON that wasn't mentioned - although we had 22 hours to set it up, if it is raining, that doesn't happen. You have to expose everything to the elements to install the roof. I worked out of a TSW-7 (the green mobile tower) several times in my career. That read an white unit you saw loading into the aircraft was an RSU which were/are commonly used at ATC (Air Training Command, not Air Traffic Control) bases manned by pilots to control student pilots in the pattern.
 
This thing replaced the TSW-7 but I never got the opportunity to work out of one. Either one requires you to really like the other two controllers you are working with. Pretty tight quarters in there.

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What's that called Tim? Can it be set in different configurations like the TSW-7? (on truck, by itself, on stilts)
 
ICLS came up in another thread awhile back. Do planes that have ACLS also have ICLS? I remember different 'categories' of ACLS ranging from flying the needles on up to 'don't touch anything and it'll hit the wire for you." Does ACLS have it's own needles or are they using the ICLS needles? It sounded like ICLS was maybe a backup to PAR before ACLS came around. Supposedly because ICLS could be stabilized to compensate for a pitching deck while PAR couldn't be. Exactly how does ICLS fit into the picture?

So, I can only speak to the F/A-18A-D and EA-18G, but in short, yes, we have both ACLS and ICLS. They are entirely different systems. ICLS is visually identical to civilian ILS in the cockpit, and functions on the same premise. It is an entirely manual precision approach, that can be flown to standard mins of 200' and 1/2 NM. It is bolted to the carrier, and it does not provide requisite precision below that altitude, particularly with a moving deck (it in fact does not compensate for a pitching deck)......glideslope is not accurate as you get inside 1/2 mile. ACLS is a 2 way datalink between the ship and aircraft, that requires the controller to manually "lock up" the jet on approach. From there, command steering signals are sent to the aircraft, which account for ship movement. If desired, the pilot can "couple up", i.e. engage autopilot and let the system fly them into the wires. The approach is generally not perfect, and there are some deviations in glideslope, but it will reliably get you into the wires unless deck pitching is outside limits. In the infinite wisdom of Naval Aviation, ICLS (that has "needles") is called "bullseye", and the ACLS (which puts a small circle in the HUD for guidance and has no traditional "needles") is called "needles". I'll never know why that is what they decided to call each.

Next question, about PAR's and backups and such. For the majority of the approach, you get what is equivalent to a PAR, called a CCA or carrier controlled approach. I'm talking about all this with regard to a case III instrument recovery. You will get vectors to final, and lineup corrections from about 10 miles on. ACLS will normally grab you at about 4-6 miles. By then you have been getting ICLS lineup for a while. So basically if all systems are working, you should have multiple sources by then to get lineup suitcased. At 3 NM you push over. If you have a good handshake with ACLS, you will be directed to fly "mode 2" which is a manual approach primarily referencing ACLS guidance but still hand flying. If you requested a "mode 1" out at range, you would couple up, and let the autopilot do it. Without ACLS, you would be directed to fly "mode 3", which is a combination of self contained altitude numbers and the TACAN, and/or referencing the ICLS. With ACLS/mode 2, most guys still back it up with ICLS. Either way, the controller provides you with glideslope and lineup information like a PAR, until 3/4 mile, when you'll hear something like "303 on course, on glideslope, 3/4 mile, call the ball", at which point you should be visual the fresnel lens, and the approach comms are taken over by the controlling LSO. At that range at night, most guys are still referencing ACLS and/or ICLS, until you can break out the meatball deviations a little better. Assuming you do have the IFLOLS (fresnel lens), you essentially take over visually shortly thereafter if flying a manual approach. If you are flying mode 1, you still monitor your glideslope and lineup visually. If you are still IMC, you call "Clara" and the LSO's will provide you verbal corrections to correct deviations......as in "paddles contact, you're high, work it down" or some such statement.

That all is somewhat changing, now that the Super Hornet has what is referred to "Magic Carpet" or PLM. It is an entirely self contained approach mode that manipulates the flight controls to provide near instant glideslope corrections. To say it is an unprecedented improvement in approach/recovery performance is an understatement, but that is a little beyond the scope of your original question. Anyway, hope that answers it.

Edit: "I can only speak to F/A-18 A-F"....sorry, forgot I'm a 2-seat Rhino guy now.... :)
 
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So, I can only speak to the F/A-18A-D and EA-18G, but in short, yes, we have both ACLS and ICLS. They are entirely different systems. ICLS is visually identical to civilian ILS in the cockpit, and functions on the same premise. It is an entirely manual precision approach, that can be flown to standard mins of 200' and 1/2 NM. It is bolted to the carrier, and it does not provide requisite precision below that altitude, particularly with a moving deck (it in fact does not compensate for a pitching deck)......glideslope is not accurate as you get inside 1/2 mile. ACLS is a 2 way datalink between the ship and aircraft, that requires the controller to manually "lock up" the jet on approach. From there, command steering signals are sent to the aircraft, which account for ship movement. If desired, the pilot can "couple up", i.e. engage autopilot and let the system fly them into the wires. The approach is generally not perfect, and there are some deviations in glideslope, but it will reliably get you into the wires unless deck pitching is outside limits. In the infinite wisdom of Naval Aviation, ICLS (that has "needles") is called "bullseye", and the ACLS (which puts a small circle in the HUD for guidance and has no traditional "needles") is called "needles". I'll never know why that is what they decided to call each.

Next question, about PAR's and backups and such. For the majority of the approach, you get what is equivalent to a PAR, called a CCA or carrier controlled approach. I'm talking about all this with regard to a case III instrument recovery. You will get vectors to final, and lineup corrections from about 10 miles on. ACLS will normally grab you at about 4-6 miles. By then you have been getting ICLS lineup for a while. So basically if all systems are working, you should have multiple sources by then to get lineup suitcased. At 3 NM you push over. If you have a good handshake with ACLS, you will be directed to fly "mode 2" which is a manual approach primarily referencing ACLS guidance but still hand flying. If you requested a "mode 1" out at range, you would couple up, and let the autopilot do it. Without ACLS, you would be directed to fly "mode 3", which is a combination of self contained altitude numbers and the TACAN, and/or referencing the ICLS. With ACLS/mode 2, most guys still back it up with ICLS. Either way, the controller provides you with glideslope and lineup information like a PAR, until 3/4 mile, when you'll hear something like "303 on course, on glideslope, 3/4 mile, call the ball", at which point you should be visual the fresnel lens, and the approach comms are taken over by the controlling LSO. At that range at night, most guys are still referencing ACLS and/or ICLS, until you can break out the meatball deviations a little better. Assuming you do have the IFLOLS (fresnel lens), you essentially take over visually shortly thereafter if flying a manual approach. If you are flying mode 1, you still monitor your glideslope and lineup visually. If you are still IMC, you call "Clara" and the LSO's will provide you verbal corrections to correct deviations......as in "paddles contact, you're high, work it down" or some such statement.

That all is somewhat changing, now that the Super Hornet has what is referred to "Magic Carpet" or PLM. It is an entirely self contained approach mode that manipulates the flight controls to provide near instant glideslope corrections. To say it is an unprecedented improvement in approach/recovery performance is an understatement, but that is a little beyond the scope of your original question. Anyway, hope that answers it.
That answers my questions, and more. Thanks for taking the time
 
That answers my questions, and more. Thanks for taking the time

See your location....spent last week in Oregon. Best time of the year to come home (Eugene), plus the smoke had cleared finally. Jealous of you guys in the PNW, it doesn't get better than right now, anywhere in the world. Whole week was 75-80 high, obviously zero humidity, cloudless, with everyone outside. Enjoy it!
 
See your location....spent last week in Oregon. Best time of the year to come home (Eugene), plus the smoke had cleared finally. Jealous of you guys in the PNW, it doesn't get better than right now, anywhere in the world. Whole week was 75-80 high, obviously zero humidity, cloudless, with everyone outside. Enjoy it!
I'm tryin. It's raining right now but that's what makes it beautiful when it stops. I'll be leaving for down south in a month or so. Raised in Portland but spent most of life in 'dryer' places. I'm a Snowbirder now, summers up here and winters down there. The best of both worlds.
 
So there are some PAR's (even USN) that have a 100' HAT DH, but the big catch all is the 3710 reg that limits any "single piloted aircraft" to no lower than 200' and 1/2 mile in any situation. So if you are talking any current USN or USMC tacair jet, that is the absolute minimum, regardless of what the actual approach mins are.

To answer your question earlier about certification of shipboard approaches, that is done during a ship's pre-workup deck cert cycle. VX-23 from Pax river will come out for a couple days and certify the ICLS and PALS (i.e. ACLS) for every ship prior to conducting pre-deployment workups. I have no idea how many approaches they do, but from what I have observed, it is around a 2 day process.

Little VX-23 Thursday throw back. "Salty Dog" coming off a PAR.

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