Experimental with 430 to 430W conversion

J

jsbougher

Pre-Flight
Joined
Jul 9, 2008
Messages
35
Display Name
Display name:
LafBizGuy
Okay, I don't know where to look and I'm not terribly comfortable with the answer my avionics shop gave me.

I have an experimental. In 2006, I had a GNS-430 installed. Had it IFR certified with test flight, manual supplement, 337, the whole 9-yards by a professional shop in FL that does a lot of work on experimentals. Just recently had the 430 pulled and "converted" (what ever that means) to a 430W. This was done by another solid shop, but they don't do much / any work with experimentals. Now that it is in the plane, since I had the very same 430 certified before, is it still IFR certified? Do I need to do any kind of special testing to use vertical guidance?

Just to be clear, I'm not IFR certified and no one else is flying the plane. I'd like to start working towards my certificate again and don't really know what to do about the GPS. Any help would be appreciated, including references.

Thanks,
Jeff
 
jsbougher said:
Okay, I don't know where to look and I'm not terribly comfortable with the answer my avionics shop gave me.

I have an experimental. In 2006, I had a GNS-430 installed. Had it IFR certified with test flight, manual supplement, 337, the whole 9-yards by a professional shop in FL that does a lot of work on experimentals. Just recently had the 430 pulled and "converted" (what ever that means) to a 430W. This was done by another solid shop, but they don't do much / any work with experimentals. Now that it is in the plane, since I had the very same 430 certified before, is it still IFR certified? Do I need to do any kind of special testing to use vertical guidance?

Just to be clear, I'm not IFR certified and no one else is flying the plane. I'd like to start working towards my certificate again and don't really know what to do about the GPS. Any help would be appreciated, including references.

Thanks,
Jeff
Click to expand...

Talk to the shop that did the original installation and paperwork.
 
Call me stupid, but I didn't know 337's were even valid for experimentals.
 
LearDriver said:
Why don't you call your FSDO and talk to an avionics inspector. Lay out the timeline and changes that you have had. They will let you know where you stand.
Click to expand...
The first thing the FSDO will ask is to see the paperwork R&W mentioned.
 
LearDriver said:
I would hope so. If they are doing their job correctly.
Click to expand...
I guess my point was that the shop that did the work and wrote the paperwork should be able to do the same over the phone without having to make an appointment to go in a week ahead of time and then go all the way to the FSDO to show them the paperwork.
 
Ron Levy said:
I guess my point was that the shop that did the work and wrote the paperwork should be able to do the same over the phone without having to make an appointment to go in a week ahead of time and then go all the way to the FSDO to show them the paperwork.
Click to expand...

You are only getting the opinion of that particular shop if you do that. I would rather have the highest disposition available. I have a good relationship with the FSDO that we are out of. In my full time job I get to deal with them on a regular basis. Especially the avionics guys due to system upgrades. Its a little more detailed of a process with regards to making upgrades when they directly effect LOA's and maintenance programs on part 25 airplanes.

On the side I manage a couple of light GA aircraft. We have upgraded 430's and 530's to the W version. I got the blessing from my FSDO that nothing is required with the change other than the logbook endorsement and the AFM supplement. However, not all FSDO's are alike. I know of someone back east, I'm not sure if it OH or PA that had to jump through a bunch of hoops with theirs. There may be more to that story though and probably is.
 
LearDriver said:
You are only getting the opinion of that particular shop if you do that.
Click to expand...
If you can't trust the shop to get it right, you shouldn't have brought them the plane to work on in the first place. The shop has specific procedures to follow in the Garmin installation manual, and if they did that, the paperwork will tell you all you need to know to answer the original question. If not, the FSDO can't help by merely reviewing the paperwork as it's "garbage in/garbage out."
 
Ron Levy said:
If you can't trust the shop to get it right, you shouldn't have brought them the plane to work on in the first place. The shop has specific procedures to follow in the Garmin installation manual, and if they did that, the paperwork will tell you all you need to know to answer the original question. If not, the FSDO can't help by merely reviewing the paperwork as it's "garbage in/garbage out."
Click to expand...

If you take a look again what the OP wrote, you will see that he is beyond the stage of dealing with the shop that did the install. It looks like he is needing help moving to the next level for help in working out his problem.
 
No! The new 430w is not certified for IFR flight (mabe not VFR either) untill you fly the ILS and certify the proper operation on the new unit. They should have filled out the cert paperwork if they flew the plane after the install. One can not swap and expect the same results.

The upgrade is nothing more than takeing out the old engine and installing a new one (circuit board(s). The "Unit" is IFR certified, but not certified for use until flown.
 
Last edited:
jsbougher said:
Okay, I don't know where to look and I'm not terribly comfortable with the answer my avionics shop gave me.

I have an experimental. In 2006, I had a GNS-430 installed. Had it IFR certified with test flight, manual supplement, 337, the whole 9-yards by a professional shop in FL that does a lot of work on experimentals. Just recently had the 430 pulled and "converted" (what ever that means) to a 430W. This was done by another solid shop, but they don't do much / any work with experimentals. Now that it is in the plane, since I had the very same 430 certified before, is it still IFR certified? Do I need to do any kind of special testing to use vertical guidance?

Just to be clear, I'm not IFR certified and no one else is flying the plane. I'd like to start working towards my certificate again and don't really know what to do about the GPS. Any help would be appreciated, including references.

Thanks,
Jeff
Click to expand...

Jeff,

The old AFMS is no longer valid and you need to use the most current version of the AFMS. Any avionics shop can download this for free. The update of the 430 to a 430W can be accomplished by following the instructions in the "STC Upgrade Installation Manual" and the "400W Series Installation Manual".

The update of the 430 to a 430W includes a new GPS board, a new main processor board, and a new antenna. There are several versions of software, starting at 2.00, with the most current version being 3.30. Getting your software updated to the latest version is still a free warranty update and can be done by any Garmin avionics dealer in less than an hour, including paperwork.

Hopefully your update includes replacing the antenna and if required, the antenna cable (RG400 instead of RG59). For an IFR installation, you may need an annunciator panel depending on the location of the 430W with respect to the pilot field of view as spelled out in the installation manual. Also for IFR, you will require a compatible CDI with GS indicator for the 430W.

Now a days, in most cases all that is required is a logbook entry for the installation, print out the FAA approved AFMS, fill in your N number, make and model, serial number in the spaces provided and check the relevant boxes to reflect your specific configuration.
 
jsbougher said:
Okay, I don't know where to look and I'm not terribly comfortable with the answer my avionics shop gave me.

I have an experimental.
Click to expand...

ANYBODY can do ANYTHING maintenance/installation wise to an experimental amateur built.

The owner. The Builder. The neighbor. The neighbors dead great aunt. The radio shop. The bum living under a bridge you paid 20 bucks to. Anybody. The ONLY thing that requires an A&P or that plane's Repairman's Certificate holder is the annual condition inspection (analogous to the certified planes "annual inspection")


YOUR OPERATING LIMITATIONS are the guiding document for ALL operations.

You have the answer you need sitting on a piece of paper in your plane. If you need guidance, DONT call the local FSDO, call EAA or one of their hordes of technical advisors. The FSDO's are woefully unprepared to give you a consistent correct answer.
The ONLY limitations on this are YOUR planes Operating Limitations. If your plane says you are Day VFR without exception, then you have a Day VFR plane no matter what you install on it.

If your ops limitations say "Day VFR unless equipped in accordance with 91.xxx" then a logbook entry regarding the installation, compliance with regs will suffice. If you deem the installation a major modification, your ops limits may require you to do a few hours of phase 1 testing again (solo, demonstrate safety of craft) before re-entering Phase 2 operations and making the requisite logbook entry. If the only thing you changed was the software/firmware in the black box, and its not coupled to an autopilot I'd be inclined to say its a minor modification. If the shop that installed it typically does flight testing before returning a certified airplane to service, you would not be out of line to consider it a major mod and do a short stint of phase 1 flight test. But I doubt its necessary here.

If your old installation was compliant with your ops limitation document, and your new installation in your opinion as the installer/owner is complaint with your ops limitation document, then make a logbook entry stating the components changed, and continuing compliance with requirements for IFR flight.

If you really want, make a test flight too. If you go back under phase 1 for any reason, remember that under the hood, a safety pilot is allowed as required crew.

And for future reference, there is no such thing as "IFR certification" with regard to experimental amateur built aircraft, the craft either meets, or does not meet, the requirements for IFR flight as spelled out in the aircraft's operating limitations document. Its not renewable, transferable or expire-able. It is.. or it isn't.

Also, while 337's are convenient for installers and repair shops to use, because they use them all the time on certified planes, they are not required for experimental amateur builts. A logbook entry can suffice. Since you have a 337, you can staple it to the logbook page and make a notation referencing it.
 
Last edited:
Sticky1 said:
No! The new 430w is not certified for IFR flight (mabe not VFR either) untill you fly the ILS and certify the proper operation on the new unit. They should have filled out the cert paperwork if they flew the plane after the install. One can not swap and expect the same results.

The upgrade is nothing more than takeing out the old engine and installing a new one (circuit board(s). The "Unit" is IFR certified, but not certified for use until flown.
Click to expand...

This may be the case for a factory/certified type airframe. This is not the case with Experimental Amateur Built. The operating limitations for THAT PLANE (N-Number specific) are the governing document. If he has the latest boilerplane version, he should be legal with a logbook endorsement regarding the install and its compliance with 14 CFR Part 91.205

AC's are not governing. They are but one means (but not sole means) of showing compliance with rules and standards. But if you conform to applicable AC's you should be golden.
 
That is my experience as well, although it does make for a nice log entry reference. My FSDO agrees with you, too.

Doggtyred said:
They have no need to be used, but some shops issue them out of habit to everything they do.
Click to expand...
 
Doggtyred said:
This may be the case for a factory/certified type airframe. This is not the case with Experimental Amateur Built. The operating limitations for THAT PLANE (N-Number specific) are the governing document. If he has the latest boilerplane version, he should be legal with a logbook endorsement regarding the install and its compliance with 14 CFR Part 91.205

AC's are not governing. They are but one means (but not sole means) of showing compliance with rules and standards. But if you conform to applicable AC's you should be golden.
Click to expand...




The Air Craft is not really what I was questioning...... To fly IFR you need to have certified equipment. The equipment has to be certified in the current standards for the type of operation. If the 430 was not certified for flight the 430 might be 150' off instead of 7'off....

Been there - Done that..!!
 
Sticky1 said:
The Air Craft is not really what I was questioning...... To fly IFR you need to have certified equipment. The equipment has to be certified in the current standards for the type of operation. If the 430 was not certified for flight the 430 might be 150' off instead of 7'off....

Been there - Done that..!!
Click to expand...

In an Amateur Built aircraft, the builder is the manufacturer and is responsible for ensuring/certifying compliance with any applicable standards.

It is perfectly legal and safe (provided the builder has the skills, knowledge and resources/references) for an experimental owner to completely install an IFR (and approach capable) install.

When I was partnered in a Velocity under construction I had developed a package that did just that.

Our install was dual KX125 NavCom, Dual KN 75 glideslope receivers, a KLN-89B (dated but functional) GPS, appropriate dual CDI's, and annunciators for the primary scan area. This was to be tied into a Dynon EFIS. We also had a touch screen flash-drive PC with AnywhereMap as a color moving map for situational awareness.

This package (as a whole) in no way shape or form could have been "certified" in a factory plane because the Dynon isnt a certified piece of hardware. Likewise, had I built one of Jim Weir's RST NavCom's years ago, and had it installed in an amateur built plane, I could use it for IFR nav too. And this was a radio that comes to the builder as a circuit board, hundreds of components and few wires and knobs.

However, "I" could legally install the above in an amateur built, and then an IFR rated pilot could legally fly it on an IFR clearance. To GPS approach or ILS approach minimums. This happens every day across the country with other homebuilts. Their install is not "certified" in any way shape or form, even if the critical components comply with pertinent AC's


The caveat here is.. if you DO this.. instead of paying thousands to an avionics shop, you take your life in your own hands. Your soldering better be perfect. Your wires strain relieved, your grounds clean.. and avionics are a weird niche. There is very very little public domain material out there on "how to". The people who KNOW how to, do it for a living.. and dont share for free. Add to that the fact that you can cobble together a panel that uses two or three different hardware "architectures" (i.e. nav radio communicates to GS receiver using 10-15 wires, with various combinations of conductors being hot/cold (on/off) to tell the receiver which freq to listen on....... gray code for xponder encoders.... resolvers for the nav receiver to talk to the CDI... then newer stuff talks on serial busses... some is proprietary language.. some is industry standard.. Its enough to make your head explode.
 
Yes, Yes, Yes.......I know what you are saying. I have (see avitar) an exp. with a combo of Garmin and GRT. Ok so my description of "certifying" which I do when I install my own equipment and then fly it is to the standards of the checkout "certifying" that garmin requires for the 430/530 in a certified aircraft. You don't install and the go flying IFR without "Certifying/Checking out" the receivers for accuracy.......do you..?
 
Last edited:
Sticky1 said:
You don't install and the go flying IFR without "Certifying/Checking out" the receivers for accuracy.......do you..?
Click to expand...

It would be very unwise to do so.

Not to mention, VOR checks are regulatory (in the FAR's) as opposed to suggested (by AC or AIM). As for GPS's.. no requirement to do so unless your ops limitations call it out as a major mod... but again, very foolish to use something without adequate flight test
 
Now heres a panel.........:eek:
 

Attachments

  • Copy of IMG_0236.JPG
    Copy of IMG_0236.JPG
    138.7 KB · Views: 24
Sticky1 said:
Now heres a panel.........:eek:
Click to expand...

Can one of the red boarders post when Av gets the Comanche back? I just wanna see pics of a piston single with DUAL Garmin glass panels. Bet the avionics shop looooooves him!
 
Oh, you mean something like this.....? The cherokee 6 I sold a few years ago. Damm, I miss that plane!! Dualing 530's
 

Attachments

  • DCP_0360.JPG
    DCP_0360.JPG
    787.2 KB · Views: 11
Sticky1 said:
Oh, you mean something like this.....? The cherokee 6 I sold a few years ago. Damm, I miss that plane!! Dualing 530's
Click to expand...

No, "worse." I guess one G600 wasn't enough, he's going to have dual G600's! I forget if he has dual 530's, dual 430's, or one of each in the middle. But, probably the most advanced panel I've seen or even heard of on an old bird!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top