Ever shorter landing distance practice

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docmirror

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Cowboy - yeehah!
In preparation for my coming short field attempt I went out and did some smash and goes today. Usually I let er float down, gently touch the brakes and keep things on an even keel. Not today! The runway was a carrier deck, and no bolters.

84F, wind 30deg of the runway at 15kts, 1100' DA, half fuel no pax.

1st pass - appr 70MPH, full flaps, modest to heavier braking = 750' full stop.

2nd pass - appr 70MPH, 65 over the fence, slightly steeper angle, and hard on the brakes = ~625' full stop.

3rd pass - appr 65, feathering the throttle, same descent angle, chop throttle before touchdown(firm) = ~550' full stop.

4th pass - appr 65, even steeper angle, less than 60 over the fence, chop and stop = ~600' full stop.

So that's about the best I can get. If I double it for altitude, and toss in a fudge factor looks like a safe distance will be 1600-1800'. Take off was 10deg flaps, full power on the brakes and off in 650-700'. Able to make 1200FPM no problem.
 
docmirror said:
In preparation for my coming short field attempt I went out and did some smash and goes today. Usually I let er float down, gently touch the brakes and keep things on an even keel. Not today! The runway was a carrier deck, and no bolters.

84F, wind 30deg of the runway at 15kts, 1100' DA, half fuel no pax.

1st pass - appr 70MPH, full flaps, modest to heavier braking = 750' full stop.

2nd pass - appr 70MPH, 65 over the fence, slightly steeper angle, and hard on the brakes = ~625' full stop.

3rd pass - appr 65, feathering the throttle, same descent angle, chop throttle before touchdown(firm) = ~550' full stop.

4th pass - appr 65, even steeper angle, less than 60 over the fence, chop and stop = ~600' full stop.

So that's about the best I can get. If I double it for altitude, and toss in a fudge factor looks like a safe distance will be 1600-1800'. Take off was 10deg flaps, full power on the brakes and off in 650-700'. Able to make 1200FPM no problem.
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I've learned two hard lessons doing this. Number one is inspect the brake pads often and number two is the acceleration/climb at high elevation is a lot less than you expect.
 
I'll watch, but that is about all.

I am impressed if this is in the bo. I'll come on over the fence at 70 and sometimes chop the power. Not sure how much runway I use, but not much. (Landed long to avoid a flock of birds on the runway at gastons last weekend and had to add power to get to parking.)

So you let the vertical speed build?
 
Somehow I don't know or missed it. What are you flying these days, Doc?
 
Old Bo. I get a pretty good sink rate, just keeping the ASI about 65 to keep some air for the flare, but yeah it's coming down pretty good. I have Cleveland 8" brakes off a Baron and 700x8 tires so I have quite a bit of stopping power. I'll check the pads tomorrow.
 
A while back one of my buddies at the airport asked me if I'd ever made the first turn off at CRQ. I'd never even considered it as usually I don't touch down til after that. A few weeks ago I was doing some pattern work, coming in high and slipping it all the way down, short approaches, etc. Decided to give it a shot. Came in on the stall horn with a little throttle, chopped it as I crossed the lights, dropped just past them, stomped the brakes and got it down to a slow taxi speed for the turn.

A2 (the first turn off) is at the 500' markers. The tower controller called me a showoff. There are plenty of planes that can do it, but it's pretty unusual for a Mooney.
 
Ours will stop incredibly short of course, but I learned in the first year about how fast that eats brake pads. I offered to pay for the new ones but the other co-owners chuckled and said they had done the same thing their first year.
 
My shortest landing was in a C-207. I touched down and had a roll out of about 20 feet.

Ok, the 60 knot headwind might have helped...:lol::lol::lol:
 
I use heavy braking routinely and have never had much brake pad wear. That doesn't concern me nearly as much as the potential of blowing a master, which I did last year. Rebuilding the one made apparent how bad the other one was. In looking through my maintenance logs I couldn't see where my masters had been serviced other than topping fluid in 40+ years. I suspect most planes can claim the same.That said, your brake pads are the least of your worries. When you're hard on the brakes and one side blows your day gets pretty exciting very quickly.
 
Hey doc.. Question: do you have a noticeable pitch up between cruise and when slowing down?

I've always wondered if the reason some bo drivers land so fast is that the pitch attitude between about 100MPH (or so) and 70MPH is somewhat noticeable. (Don't notice it much now, but did when I first got the aircraft a couple of years ago.)
 
brian];1916134 said:
Hey doc.. Question: do you have a noticeable pitch up between cruise and when slowing down?

I've always wondered if the reason some bo drivers land so fast is that the pitch attitude between about 100MPH (or so) and 70MPH is somewhat noticeable. (Don't notice it much now, but did when I first got the aircraft a couple of years ago.)
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Nope. Maybe very slight, but hardly noticeable.
 
I think I noticed because I have the 100MPH flap and gear speeds. If I could hang the gear out at a faster speed and then work the flaps, I doubt I would have even noticed.
 
Here's a nickel worth of free advice. Don't mis-use the flaps or gear on a Bo and your life will be much happier. Flaps and gear on old planes are not designed for use as a brake. They are designed to land on the wheels, and provide low speed lift to lower the landing speed, so I guess in a way the flap is kind of a brake.

I don't touch the gear handle until I'm at 90MPH or below on downwind. I don't touch the flaps until I'm at 80. All that extra air pressure on the stuff just causes wear, and raises mx cost. The other thing I do on take off is get the gear up as soon as the VSI shows a climb. I don't care what the 'book' or CFI says about remaining useful runway, I want the gear stowed and the doors closed as quick as possible, particularly the nose gear doors behind the big prop. If I'm doing it wrong, the insurance company and I can have a nice long discussion about it over a cup of tea.

YMMV, pro driver closed course, objects in mirror and may cause anal leakage.
 
I hear you on the MX costs and gear speed. I lost respect for one beech trainer that wanted me to ignore book and drop the gear above 100MPH. Sad because he had a lot of other good advice.

I had a partial gear retrac last weekend, so I'm grounded until my local beech A&P can get my -35 on his jacks for a gear swing. Not interested in talking to the insurance guy about something I do have control over while on the ground...
 
If you need a gear box, or motor I have one from a bit newer with the faster gear speed. It's usually one of the retract rods or something outboard, but if it's the gear box, lemme know.
 
docmirror said:
If you need a gear box, or motor I have one from a bit newer with the faster gear speed. It's usually one of the retract rods or something outboard, but if it's the gear box, lemme know.
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Will do.. And thanks for the offer.

i cycled the gear after I realized what was happening and got a full retrac.. Everything normal. But something isn't right. Hoping I can get another A&P to take a look, but I have questions for him first. Would really like our beech expert on this one. (he rebuilds e series Bo's for someone back in Kansas). But he has three early 35s in / around his shop right now...
 
brian];1916152 said:
I hear you on the MX costs and gear speed. I lost respect for one beech trainer that wanted me to ignore book and drop the gear above 100MPH. Sad because he had a lot of other good advice.
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Not disagreeing with the concept of higher speed putting more stress on things, but what is your Vle? 100mph seems a bit low to wait to drop the gear, but I haven't flown a Bo in a few years, just the Baron.
 
brian];1916167 said:
Will do.. And thanks for the offer.

i cycled the gear after I realized what was happening and got a full retrac.. Everything normal. But something isn't right. Hoping I can get another A&P to take a look, but I have questions for him first. Would really like our beech expert on this one. (he rebuilds e series Bo's for someone back in Kansas). But he has three early 35s in / around his shop right now...
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Next time, just put it down and land. If you don't get a full retract, and cycle you can really bend things.

Best bet on testing is to attach a small charger to the batt, and once on the jacks the A&P will have to flip the switch or pull the breaker as it goes up. He'll stop along the way and look for interference. Take your seat out too, and see if something has dropped down in the gear arm area. The 35 is sometimes prone to cocking the nose wheel a bit. There's a centering guide in the nose link up at the top you should check. Yes, a Bo specialist is very useful here.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Not disagreeing with the concept of higher speed putting more stress on things, but what is your Vle? 100mph seems a bit low to wait to drop the gear, but I haven't flown a Bo in a few years, just the Baron.
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I have a version 1.0 bonanza. They started with a 100MPH flap and gear speed. (A Navion driver friend has the same limits.) in 1949, beech made some mods and raised the gear speed to 120MPH (if memory serves). I have several of those mods and this is where I disagreed with the one guy for pretty much the reason doc (cowboy) states- I'm paying the MX bills.

Oh, and In 1949 they added steering to the nose gear .. So mine casters instead.

I'm a new owner so I reserve the right to be wrong...
 
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brian];1916179 said:
I have a version 1.0 bonanza. They started with a 100MPH flap and gear speed. (A Navion driver friend has the same limits.) in 1949, beech made some mods and raised the gear speed to 120MPH (if memory serves). I have several of those mods and this is where I disagreed with the one guy for pretty much the reason doc (cowboy) states- I'm paying the MX bills.



Oh, and In 1949 they added steering to the nose gear .. So mine casters instead.



I'm a new owner so I reserve the right to be wrong...
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Thanks, that makes some sense. I am no Bo expert. I don't think you wrong. I was just under the impression that the gear was fairly common between the Bonanza and Baron lines.
 
I used to be able to get the 182 in around 600'-800'. I am cursed or something with the Cirrus. Best so far is about 1200' but that can easily turn into a 4000' landing at times. :)
 
I heartily commend anyone who goes out and tries to see how quick they can stop their airplane - it is a skill that may save your life someday. I know it is non-kosher in any airplane (especially retracts) but I find I can shave 100' off any landing if I suck the flaps up in the flare.

edit: aerodynamic braking is your friend, and it works.
 
DavidWhite said:
I heartily commend anyone who goes out and tries to see how quick they can stop their airplane - it is a skill that may save your life someday. I know it is non-kosher in any airplane (especially retracts) but I find I can shave 100' off any landing if I suck the flaps up in the flare.



edit: aerodynamic braking is your friend, and it works.
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I wouldn't say it's non-kosher if you need it. Fly the plane.

Removing drag should make your distance longer not shorter, unless you're saying you can't get enough traction on the tires and dumping the flaps means the mechanical brakes are doing the stopping, not aerodynamics.

So if I get what you're saying, it is that mechanical braking is your friend, and aerodynamic braking provides too much lift even at low speeds to maximize the mechanical braking?

(I can agree with that.)

It would definitely take some practice to time dumping the flaps from the flare. I'll dump them on the ground, but haven't ever even attempted it from even a foot up. Too pitchy and I'd probably be paying for a firewall when the nose hit first.

And of course those flying retracts will scream bloody murder that eventually someone will grab the wrong handle...
 
Once the strip is made there's no reason to have the added lift from flaps. Dump them. You're finished flying.
 
denverpilot said:
I wouldn't say it's non-kosher if you need it. Fly the plane.

Removing drag should make your distance longer not shorter, unless you're saying you can't get enough traction on the tires and dumping the flaps means the mechanical brakes are doing the stopping, not aerodynamics.

So if I get what you're saying, it is that mechanical braking is your friend, and aerodynamic braking provides too much lift even at low speeds to maximize the mechanical braking?

(I can agree with that.)

It would definitely take some practice to time dumping the flaps from the flare. I'll dump them on the ground, but haven't ever even attempted it from even a foot up. Too pitchy and I'd probably be paying for a firewall when the nose hit first.

And of course those flying retracts will scream bloody murder that eventually someone will grab the wrong handle...
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The more weight on the mains, the less risk you run of locking up/skidding the tires regardless of runway surface or conditions.
 
Any of you have much ski time? Flaps out is important when landing on slick ice. Air brakes. Heck, I'll hold the door open if I think it'll help. Ever sail a float plane? Flaps and doors are players in that. Dumping flaps on the ground is more about keeping the plane on the ground than braking although braking is improved. Fly a tail dragger and you'll get a better understanding of use of flaps during landing.
 
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