Equipment Suffix: /G vs. /R

[HPNPilot1200]

For years we have been filing /G (equipped with a GNS530) however on Fltplan.com now it files /R. In the ICAO & aircraft data for the airplane on Fltplan.com I have entered in the following:

RNAV Departure Level: RNV1
RNAV Enroute Level: RNV2
RNAV Arrival Level: RNV1

While we don't have WAAS, AC90-100 and -100A states that the GNS530 is approved for Q-route and T-routes and thus can meet RNV2 performance. Should it be filed as /G or /R? If I leave RNAV Enroute level blank it will likely file /G but then as far as I can tell, controllers won't assign us a T-route if one is available even though we can legally accept the clearance to fly a T-route.

[SIZE=-1]/G[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Global Navigation Satellite System (GNSS), including GPS or Wide Area Augmentation System (WAAS), with en route and terminal capability. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]/R[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Required Navigational Performance (RNP). The aircraft meets the RNP type prescribed for the route segment(s), route(s) and/or area concerned.[/SIZE]

 

[Everskyward]

Here are the equipment suffixes...

http://flightaware.com/about/faq_aircraft_flight_plan_suffix.rvt

/G Global Navigation Satellite System (GNSS), including GPS or WAAS,
with enroute and terminal capability.
/R Required Navigational Performance. The aircraft meets the RNP type
prescribed for the route segment(s), route(s) and/or area concerned.

My understanding is that you file /R if you can do the RNAV departures and arrivals and other routes (legally that is) because you have the required RNP. You would file /G if you can do GPS approaches, WAAS or not, but can't do the RNAV departures, arrivals and other routes.

Are you talking about the airplane that is pictured? Does it not have RVSM? In that case it would be /L or /Q.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

My understanding is that you file /R if you can do the RNAV departures and arrivals and other routes (legally that is) because you have the required RNP. You would file /G if you can do GPS approaches, WAAS or not, but can't do the RNAV departures, arrivals and other routes.

That makes sense. Since we can fly RNAV departures and arrivals we would then file /R.

Are you talking about the airplane that is pictured? Does it not have RVSM? In that case it would be /L or /Q.

Negative, talking about the Mooney in the original post.

 

[hindsight2020]

T/Q routes on a Mooney? Those are essentially based on great circle routes, not much use for that on most single engine piston applications. Not that I have anything to add to the discussion, I just wanted to interject /G is pretty much all one needs to get around these days.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

T/Q routes on a Mooney? Those are essentially based on great circle routes, not much use for that on most single engine piston applications. Not that I have anything to add to the discussion, I just wanted to interject /G is pretty much all one needs to get around these days.

Yup. Turbo'd Mooney (231), certified to FL240 with built in O2 tank. There are a lot of short segment T-routes around CVG.

 

[TMetzinger]

Hmm... I had the impression that RNP required an aircraft-specific certification/qualification, but perhaps that's only for the approaches.

An IFR GPS offers the equivalent to RNP 1.0 or even RNP 0.3, as far as determining your position in space and it's relation to where you're supposed to be. But I think that's only half the story. The other half is how well the airplane will maintain the correct course, and without a good autopilot, the answer is "it depends", which is NOT the answer to a "required" question. Because of this, I thought RNP required an autopilot, and that it be flying the airplane. For instance, I'd think a G1000/GFC700 autopilot could maintain RNP1 or better, but perhaps an older S-Tec, Collins, or King autopilot, even though coupled to an IFR GPS, might not be able to maintain RNP2. From the AIM:
. The "performance" of navigation in RNP refers not only to the level of accuracy of a particular sensor or aircraft navigation system, but also to the degree of precision with which the aircraft will be flown.

So... I'd file /G, file the GPS routes, and I'd be surprised if the controllers didn't assign them, though perhaps Steve can chime in with the ATC viewpoint.

Wait, from the AIM:
Aircraft and Airborne Equipment Eligibility for RNP Operations. Aircraft meeting RNP criteria will have an appropriate entry including special conditions and limitations in its Aircraft Flight Manual (AFM), or supplement. Operators of aircraft not having specific AFM-RNP certification may be issued operational approval including special conditions and limitations for specific RNP levels.

So, unless you've got something in your AFM that says your airplane meets RNP critera (and I bet you don't) then it doesn't matter how accurate your GPS is.

 

[Everskyward]

Hmm... I had the impression that RNP required an aircraft-specific certification/qualification, but perhaps that's only for the approaches.

An IFR GPS offers the equivalent to RNP 1.0 or even RNP 0.3, as far as determining your position in space and it's relation to where you're supposed to be. But I think that's only half the story. The other half is how well the airplane will maintain the correct course, and without a good autopilot, the answer is "it depends", which is NOT the answer to a "required" question. Because of this, I thought RNP required an autopilot, and that it be flying the airplane. For instance, I'd think a G1000/GFC700 autopilot could maintain RNP1 or better, but perhaps an older S-Tec, Collins, or King autopilot, even though coupled to an IFR GPS, might not be able to maintain RNP2. From the AIM:
. The "performance" of navigation in RNP refers not only to the level of accuracy of a particular sensor or aircraft navigation system, but also to the degree of precision with which the aircraft will be flown.

So... I'd file /G, file the GPS routes, and I'd be surprised if the controllers didn't assign them, though perhaps Steve can chime in with the ATC viewpoint.

Wait, from the AIM:
Aircraft and Airborne Equipment Eligibility for RNP Operations. Aircraft meeting RNP criteria will have an appropriate entry including special conditions and limitations in its Aircraft Flight Manual (AFM), or supplement. Operators of aircraft not having specific AFM-RNP certification may be issued operational approval including special conditions and limitations for specific RNP levels.

So, unless you've got something in your AFM that says your airplane meets RNP critera (and I bet you don't) then it doesn't matter how accurate your GPS is.

I think you are confusing RNP approaches with RNAV arrivals and departures. You don't need aircraft-specific approval to do RNAV approaches and departures or to fly RNAV routes. You do need an approved GPS, however. Somewhere I had a list of approved GPSs and I would be very surprised if the Garmin 530 was not on it. The ones that were excluded were some of the very old ones like that POS Trimble we have in the 35s.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

I think you are confusing RNP approaches with RNAV arrivals and departures. You don't need aircraft-specific approval to do RNAV approaches and departures or to fly RNAV routes. You do need an approved GPS, however. Somewhere I had a list of approved GPSs and I would be very surprised if the Garmin 530 was not on it. The ones that were excluded were some of the very old ones like that POS Trimble we have in the 35s.

They are listed in a supplemental spreadsheet under AC 90-100. For some reason I was unable to upload it here because .xls files are not on the list of acceptable attachment extensions.

 

[TMetzinger]

They are listed in a supplemental spreadsheet under AC 90-100. For some reason I was unable to upload it here because .xls files are not on the list of acceptable attachment extensions.

I don't think that qualifies. Just because your SENSOR (GPS) is RNP XXX compliant doesn't mean your AIRCRAFT is RNP compliant.

 

[TMetzinger]

I think you are confusing RNP approaches with RNAV arrivals and departures. You don't need aircraft-specific approval to do RNAV approaches and departures or to fly RNAV routes. You do need an approved GPS, however. Somewhere I had a list of approved GPSs and I would be very surprised if the Garmin 530 was not on it. The ones that were excluded were some of the very old ones like that POS Trimble we have in the 35s.

And I think you're confusing RNAV with RNP... You can absolutely file/fly RNAV routes/departures/arrivals/approaches with an appropriate GPS.

That's not the same as filing as an RNP aircraft.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

My understanding is that you file /R if you can do the RNAV departures and arrivals and other routes (legally that is) because you have the required RNP. You would file /G if you can do GPS approaches, WAAS or not, but can't do the RNAV departures, arrivals and other routes.

Disagree - Note that the description for /G only mentions enroute and terminal, not approaches. So, a non-approach-certified IFR GPS is good enough to file /G.

I looked into this a few years ago because I was flying one airplane with an enroute/terminal IFR GPS, and one with a full approach certified GPS. At the time, the answer was that both should file /G and that ATC wouldn't assign a GPS approach without asking if you were capable.

Of course, anything related to GPS and the NAS is somewhat of a moving target, so this may have changed somewhat, but I don't think the usage of equipment suffixes has changed.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

T/Q routes on a Mooney? Those are essentially based on great circle routes, not much use for that on most single engine piston applications. Not that I have anything to add to the discussion, I just wanted to interject /G is pretty much all one needs to get around these days.

Huh? Sure there's use for that. For example, I'm in Milwaukee and I want to go IFR to Wings for the FlyBQ next weekend, and I want to stay over land.

With the Windbag City in my way, I'm gonna need to file a route around it. I can either go with the "old way" which will probably result in my getting BAE V63 RFD KELSI direct, or file and fly VEENA T265 KELSI direct and save myself 14nm. Not much in this case, but there are also quite a few T routes out in the Dakotas, for example, that allow for lower altitudes on more direct routes, very handy for icing season.

 

[Everskyward]

Here is the explanation about how to set up a flight plan at fltplan.com.

http://ww11.FltPlan.com/ICAOHelp.htm#RNAV

RNAV Departure Level - select 1 of the 2 options from the dropdown box.
BLANK - the aircraft does not meet the requirements for any RNAV departure
RNAV 1 - the aircraft can meet the navigational requirements of a SID (DP) requiring RNAV 1 capability.

Note 1 : If you don't think you have RNAV Departure capabilities (or don't know) then you probably don't. Leave the box empty.
Note 2 : At this time, all RNAV SIDs in the U.S. are RNAV 1. If you are presently legal to fly RNAV SIDs, then RNAV 1 would be the smart choice.

RNAV Enroute Level - Select 1 of the 3 possible choices from the dropdown box
BLANK - the aircraft has no area navigational capabilities
RNV 2 - the aircraft can navigate enroute with a 2 nm or less crosstrack error for 95% of the time
RNV 99 - Select this option if you can legally navigate from point to point (PTP) but don't meet the requirements of RNV 2 enroute capabilities.

Note 1 : If you don't think you have RNAV Enroute capabilities (or don't know) then you probably don't. Leave the box empty.
Note 2 : At this time, all RNAV Routes in the contiguous U.S. are RNAV 2. If you are presently legal to fly 'T' & 'Q' routes, then RNAV 2 would be the smart choice.

RNAV Arrival Level - Select 1 of the 2 options from the dropdown box.
BLANK - the aircraft does not meet the requirements for any RNAV Arrival
RNAV 1 - the aircraft can meet the navigational requirements of a STAR requiring RNAV 1 capability.

If the GPS in Jason's airplane can do RNAV arrivals, departures and routes and fltplan.com comes up with /R then that must be correct.

Here is the list of compliant equipment and the Garmin 530 can to RNAV SIDS and STARS.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...fs/afs400/afs470/media/AC90-100compliance.xls

 

[HPNPilot1200]

If the GPS in Jason's airplane can do RNAV arrivals, departures and routes and fltplan.com comes up with /R then that must be correct.

It seems that way.

 

[John Collins]

I think that there is confusion between RNAV T and Q routes, RNAV STARS, RNAV SIDS and RNP. The routes in question are categorized as RNAV, not RNP, although they are based on RNP criteria. If you do a search on the document AC 90-100A, you will have only three brief references to RNP and they are used to describe specific type of RNP aircraft capable, not the routes. The references to aircraft with RNP capability is different than RNAV route capability although they also qualify for flying these routes as does an appropriate GNSS system., So I think the /R code is not appropriate for a GNS530W equipped aircraft which should be coded as /G, although I could be convinced with additional information.

See the excerpts from AC 90-100A below for the references to RNP.

10. U.S. RNAV FLIGHT CREW OPERATING PROCEDURES.
...
b. General Operating Procedures:
...
(13) Pilots operating RNP-approved aircraft [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]under the provisions of this AC are not required to modify manufacturer's RNP default values established in the Flight Management Computers. [/FONT]
...
7. RNAV Systems Eligibility:
...
d. Aircraft with a statement from the manufacturer
...
NOTE 1[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]: [/FONT][/FONT]Aircraft with a demonstrated RNP capability will annunciate when no longer satisfying the performance requirement associated with the operation. However, for DME/DME/IRU-based procedures, the manufacturer still has to determine compliance with appendix 1 or 2 to support evaluation of the DME infrastructure.

[/FONT]

 

[TMetzinger]

I think that there is confusion between RNAV T and Q routes, RNAV STARS, RNAV SIDS and RNP. The routes in question are categorized as RNAV, not RNP, although they are based on RNP criteria. If you do a search on the document AC 90-100A, you will have only three brief references to RNP and they are used to describe specific type of RNP aircraft capable, not the routes. The references to aircraft with RNP capability is different than RNAV route capability although they also qualify for flying these routes as does an appropriate GNSS system., So I think the /R code is not appropriate for a GNS530W equipped aircraft which should be coded as /G, although I could be convinced with additional information.

See the excerpts from AC 90-100A below for the references to RNP.

10. U.S. RNAV FLIGHT CREW OPERATING PROCEDURES.
...
b. General Operating Procedures:
...
(13) Pilots operating RNP-approved aircraft [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]under the provisions of this AC are not required to modify manufacturer's RNP default values established in the Flight Management Computers. [/FONT]
...
7. RNAV Systems Eligibility:
...
d. Aircraft with a statement from the manufacturer
...
NOTE 1[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]: [/FONT][/FONT]Aircraft with a demonstrated RNP capability will annunciate when no longer satisfying the performance requirement associated with the operation. However, for DME/DME/IRU-based procedures, the manufacturer still has to determine compliance with appendix 1 or 2 to support evaluation of the DME infrastructure.

[/FONT]

I agree, and I think that fltplan.com is wrong.

 

[Everskyward]

I agree, and I think that fltplan.com is wrong.

I guess it must not matter too much because I'm sure thousands of flight plans have been filed that way without anyone noticing.

Edit: But this is what I found, and now I remember.

To be able to be assigned RNAV SIDs and STARs you need to file a domestic ICAO flight plan. Here are the FAA instructions.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...ing/filing/reference_guide/rnav_requirements/

When this came about a few years ago, fltplan.com tried to make it easier by having their own questionnaire. After you fill out the questionnaire it comes up with the equipment code for you. What I THINK happens is that the equipment code on the ICAO flight plan is actually a long string of letters. For us it is SDGHRWZ/S. I'm sure Jason's airplane would be a little different. However, I believe it is this string of letters which actually gets filed. I don't know how they decide that is really equivalent to /R.

 

[Everskyward]

Another thing I have noticed about the flight plan form (the one that shows the flight plan) on fltplan.com is that it shows the airplane as a /M which is clearly wrong but when you look at it on flight aware it shows /Q. I always thought it was a curiosity but never bothered to investigate.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

Another thing I have noticed about the flight plan form (the one that shows the flight plan) on fltplan.com is that it shows the airplane as a /M which is clearly wrong but when you look at it on flight aware it shows /Q. I always thought it was a curiosity but never bothered to investigate.

That's actually your wake turbulence classification, see the latest Fltplan.com newsletter:

Once Again - ICAO Equipment Suffixes: "Where did my /Q go? It's showing /M!"

Okay, we know we may sound like a broken record on the subject, but we're still seeing a lot of questions about ICAO equipment suffixes and wake turbulence categories. So if you're one of our long-term users and you've read this before, go ahead and skip this article. If you're new to FltPlan.com and you don't know why your aircraft type shows /L, keep reading.

On June 29, 2008 the FAA started requiring ICAO Format Flight Plans on all flights using RNAV departures and arrivals. (Yes, that's three years ago!) In ICAO format flight plans, the wake turbulence category appears directly after the aircraft type. Wake turbulence categories are as follows:

"H" for Heavy - Greater than 300,000 lbs. maximum certificated take-off weight
"M" for Medium - Between 15,000 and 300,000 lbs. maximum certificated take-off weight
"L" for Light - Less than 15,000 lbs. maximum certificated take-off weight

The confusion here is that in Domestic format the equipment suffix appears in this position. When filing ICAO format, the equipment is entered in item 10 (versus right after the aircraft type) and appears as a string of letters in the item 10 equipment box. So a Challenger 601 with standard equipment (which is VHF, ADF, VOR, ILS) and DME, HF Radio, RVSM, and RNP certification, and Mode S transponder would look like this: CL60/M - SDHRWZ/S (Fig. 1). If you're flying a Piper Saratoga with standard equipment (VHF, ADF, VOR, ILS) and DME, GPS, point-to-point RNAV capability, and a Mode C transponder it would look like this: PA32/L - SDGZ/C. (Fig. 2)

 

[Everskyward]

That's actually your wake turbulence classification, see the latest Fltplan.com newsletter:

Cool. Thanks for clearing that up!

 

[HPNPilot1200]

Under ICAO & aircraft data on Fltplan.com it looks like I had selected "RNP 5" for "RNP Airspace Level" which was probably incorrect (I think it should just be left blank). Now it shows an equipment string of GLOVS/S. I'll take a look next time to see what it files as; I would presume /G. That being said, there is a note for this drop down on Fltplan.com which says:

Note 2 : Domestically, this information is not used. (ATC uses the RNAV Departure/Enroute/Arrival info)

So maybe that won't make a difference, but we'll see.

I am curious if Fltplan.com interprets the equipment string and converts it to an FAA equipment suffix before transmitting the flight plan or if the data is first transmitted to the FAA and then the host computer spits out a suffix after interpreting the equipment string of letters (ICAO).

 

[Everskyward]

Under ICAO & aircraft data on Fltplan.com it looks like I had selected "RNP 5" for "RNP Airspace Level" which was probably incorrect (I think it should just be left blank). Now it shows an equipment string of GLOVS/S. I'll take a look next time to see what it files as; I would presume /G. That being said, there is a note for this drop down on Fltplan.com which says:

So maybe that won't make a difference, but we'll see.

That will be interesting.

I am curious if Fltplan.com interprets the equipment string and converts it to an FAA equipment suffix before transmitting the flight plan or if the data is first transmitted to the FAA and then the host computer spits out a suffix after interpreting the equipment string of letters (ICAO).

So will that. You're able to get inside information, aren't you?

Just for kicks I looked at the history of some of our airplanes, the one I fly now and the ones I flew previously. It seems that they all have a combination of /Q and /L listed. Some of them are able to do RNAV departures, arrivals and route and some can't. They all have FMS or GPS though. Of course I have no idea what other people are filing or even how they are filing. I'm pretty sure at least one person still picks up the phone. The other captain on the 680 just switched over to fltplan.com after using DUATS for years. I see that some of the flights he filed are /L and some are /Q but I don't know if he consistently uses one method or the other to file. Mine are /Q, at least as far back as the history goes but I always use fltplan.com except for flights between two points in Canada which fltplan.com does not accept.

 

[aterpster]

TMetzinger;712717]Hmm... I had the impression that RNP required an aircraft-specific certification/qualification, but perhaps that's only for the approaches.

So, unless you've got something in your AFM that says your airplane meets RNP critera (and I bet you don't) then it doesn't matter how accurate your GPS is.

Accuracy is only one part of "true" RNP; i.e., containment areas of 2 X RNP without secondary protected airspace. The others are integrity, alerting, and monitoring. The G-1000, with are without the Garmin autopilot, does not meet this requirement. Further, for RNP of less than 0.30 and/or a missed approach of less than 1.0, requires at least one IRU.

The use of an autopilot is not necessarily required if the flight director is used. But, most operators use the autopilot for RNP values of less than 0.30.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

Under ICAO & aircraft data on Fltplan.com it looks like I had selected "RNP 5" for "RNP Airspace Level" which was probably incorrect (I think it should just be left blank). Now it shows an equipment string of GLOVS/S. I'll take a look next time to see what it files as; I would presume /G.

I forgot about this thread until now. I left "RNP Airspace Level" blank the last time it filed and it appeared to correctly file /G instead of /R.

 

[flyingron]

T/Q routes on a Mooney? Those are essentially based on great circle routes, not much use for that on most single engine piston applications. Not that I have anything to add to the discussion, I just wanted to interject /G is pretty much all one needs to get around these days.

Huh? All "straight line" segments of routes be them T routes or Victor Airways or based on NDBs are great circle routes.

 

[Everskyward]

I forgot about this thread until now. I left "RNP Airspace Level" blank the last time it filed and it appeared to correctly file /G instead of /R.

I have also been experimenting by leaving the RNP blank. Now fltplan.com files it as a /L instead of /Q. I know the other pilot who files flight plans for this airplane also uses fltplan.com but I've noticed that some of his flight plans come out at /L and others as /Q. I can't imagine that he is changing the RNP setting back and forth. Until I find out more I will say that it must not have anything to do with RNAV 1 and 2 SIDS and STARS but it would be nice if there was a clearer explanation somewhere. I also don't know what actually gets filed, the ICAO format or the domestic format. I will say that I'm happy that fltplan.com will now file flight plans that have a departure and destination which are both in Canada.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I have also been experimenting by leaving the RNP blank. Now fltplan.com files it as a /L instead of /Q. I know the other pilot who files flight plans for this airplane also uses fltplan.com but I've noticed that some of his flight plans come out at /L and others as /Q. I can't imagine that he is changing the RNP setting back and forth. Until I find out more I will say that it must not have anything to do with RNAV 1 and 2 SIDS and STARS but it would be nice if there was a clearer explanation somewhere. I also don't know what actually gets filed, the ICAO format or the domestic format. I will say that I'm happy that fltplan.com will now file flight plans that have a departure and destination which are both in Canada.

I think I'm starting to understand why, when I look up jets in FlightAware, they never seem to have the same equipment suffix...

 

[dcmoser]

Since this thread is slowing down, I'll hijack a little. When I assigned my aircraft profile for FltPlan, I entered /G . All my plans are then designated as DGLOTV/P on the filed plan. Never quite figured that out. Exactly what is this?

 

[Mike I]

Since this thread is slowing down, I'll hijack a little. When I assigned my aircraft profile for FltPlan, I entered /G . All my plans are then designated as DGLOTV/P on the filed plan. Never quite figured that out. Exactly what is this?

Doug, check this out: http://flttrack.fltplan.com/fltbrief/May2011/fltbriefvol1.htm#4

 

[HPNPilot1200]

Since this thread is slowing down, I'll hijack a little. When I assigned my aircraft profile for FltPlan, I entered /G . All my plans are then designated as DGLOTV/P on the filed plan. Never quite figured that out. Exactly what is this?

It's an ICAO equipment suffix. See the link that Mike I posted.